johnlc Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 I'm vaguely aware of the reverse judder/clutch burnout problem related to 2008/9 Fiat Ducatos. Does this apply equally to Peugot Boxer and Citroen Relay vehicles of that era? Does it apply irrespective of engine size. vehicle wheelbase and 5 or 6 speed gearbox? I'm currently looking at a Fiat Ducato 2.2 JTD engine on a short wheelbase with 5 speed box. Although the van has a 58 plate a search suggests it might a 2006 production model. Would this make a difference? Sorry for my ignorance on this, but I'm looking at a private sale vehicle and don't want to louse up! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symbol Owner Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 John, I'm no expert, but having followed this saga for a few years on these 'threads', the answer seems to be: yes, ALL X250 Seval vans can get the 'judder', be they Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen, (Rupert 123 might well come along and disagree!) but a 2.2 JTD sounds like the same motor/gearbox as in my 2005 Fiat Ducato-based 'van, i.e the previous model, (X240?) and not affected with the problem. X250's are 2007 and later, I think. Hope that helps, the real experts (e.g. Brian & Derek) might well be along soon. Cheers, Colin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 A quick search of this forum will bring up a load of threads on this subject. I am sure you will find the answers you are wanting. Here is a thread that discusses the juddergate issues. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/What-year-was-the-Reverse-judder-problem-in-Fiat-sorted/31754/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 More of a problem with the 6 speed boxes but bear in mind it was only a very small number of vans that ever suffered with it. On the web and forums you tend to only hear from the people with problems, the tens of thousands that don't have a problem don't shout about as they have no need too. Appears to effect some conversions more than others never heard of it with Hymers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 As a result of my experience buying an 05 model, I would be more concerned about a POSSIBLE damp problem along the wall/floor joints. You absolutely MUST have a full damp check and be totally convinced that there is NO sign of damp penetration. the repair shop about to do my van, currently has 5 vans in of similar vintage and different bases, all suffering damp problem. The repairer told me that it is a well known problem in coach built vans of that era, and is an expensive job to repair. To check the judder or not, back it up a local hill . If it judders, it will soon tell you. Good luck tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnlc Posted January 29, 2014 Author Share Posted January 29, 2014 Fortunately this is a panel van so I am hoping there are no damp problems. Colin - that's interesting that you suggest the engine size/gearbox combination would make it an X240 model despite having a 58 registration plate. Could it still be an X250 but they put in that engine/gearbox because it is the SWB at 3000kg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granddad Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 hi tony were did you go in the end for your damp check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 johnlc - 2014-01-29 6:52 PM Fortunately this is a panel van so I am hoping there are no damp problems. Colin - that's interesting that you suggest the engine size/gearbox combination would make it an X240 model despite having a 58 registration plate. Could it still be an X250 but they put in that engine/gearbox because it is the SWB at 3000kg? John, Have a look on Wiki and you should be able to tell the difference quite easily... Link. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Keithl - 2014-01-29 9:27 PM johnlc - 2014-01-29 6:52 PM Fortunately this is a panel van so I am hoping there are no damp problems. Colin - that's interesting that you suggest the engine size/gearbox combination would make it an X240 model despite having a 58 registration plate. Could it still be an X250 but they put in that engine/gearbox because it is the SWB at 3000kg? John, Have a look on Wiki and you should be able to tell the difference quite easily... Link. Keith. As Keith says, it is easy to distinguish visually (via the Wikipedia photos) between 2nd Generation (1994-2006) and 3rd Generation (2006-present day) Ducatos. If the vehicle you are interested in is a 2nd Generation Ducato, you can forget about the well-publicised 'juddering in reverse' problem, as this applied only to 3rd Generation vehicles. Wikipedia suggests that a 2.2litre JTD motor was not fitted to 2nd Generation Fiat Ducatos that (apparently) had 2.0litre JTD, 2.3litre JTD or 2.8litre JTD motors, but I don't know if that's correct. (A 2.2litre HDI motor was fitted to 2nd Generation Citroen Jumper/Peugeot Boxer equivalents.) If the vehicle you are interested in is a 3rd Generation Ducato, its 2.2litre motor will not be a Fiat JTD unit, but a powerplant based on the Ford Puma engine. When the juddering problem began to be reported in (I think) 2008, it provoked a huge amount of on-line discussion, argument, yelling and wailing but - even though the problem seems to have been successfully resolved for those motorhome owners whose vehicles were most afflicted by it - the amount of credible data that was gathered about the problem is pretty small. As lennyhb says, the problem seems to have mostly affected vehicles with the 2.2litre or 2.3litre motor and 6-speed manual transmission. The primary cause was diagnosed as an unusually high reverse-gear ratio and the eventual 'fix' involved a lower ratio being installed. I don't think any attempt was ever made within the motorcaravanning community to establish what the before-and-after ratios were, or why some motorhomes juddered badly and others (apparently with the same specification) did not. Received wisdom seems to be that X250 vehicles with the 2.2litre motor and 5-speed gearbox either were not affected by the problem or were not sufficiently affected for it to matter. It may also be worth saying that the type of 'test' advocated at the time to allow a Ducato owner to identify whether or not his/her motorhome was a 'judderer' was extreme. If I 'tested' my Ford Transit-based Hobby motorhome as was suggested, not only would it judder like a mad thing but its clutch would rapidly burn out. As the Ducato panel van you are interested in has a 5-speed transmission, if it's 2nd or 3rd Generation it's a reasonable bet that the much-discussed 'juddering' problem won't be relevant. Having said that, plenty of individual vehicles (irrespective of make) do develop vibration, clutch and transmission problems. Whether 2008, 2007 or 2006 vintage, the Ducato you are interested in needs to be checked over carefully and any potential mechanical issues looked for. An adequately-long test drive should be carried out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-01-30 9:41 AM Received wisdom seems to be that X250 vehicles with the 2.2litre motor and 5-speed gearbox either were not affected by the problem or were not sufficiently affected for it to matter. Sorry Derek but I think that this is incorrect. My then 2008 Peugeot Boxer 2.2 5 speed was affected and was subsequently fitted with a lower reverse gear by Peugeot at a cost to them of around £2000. There were 2 different fixes for the problem available from Peugeot/Citroen for the 2.2 5 speed: - those vehicles (such as mine) which already had the lower of 2 available final drive ratios had their gearboxes rebuilt using a new reverse gear and main shaft set. - those vehicles with the higher final drive were fitted with an exchange gearbox featuring both the lower reverse gear and lower final drive ratio. I have no knowledge of how Fiat handled the problem in 2.2 5 speed X2/50 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliB Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 From my experience there were several fixes deployed depending on engine size and chassis. My vehicle was a Fiat 2.3 6 speed on the Maxi Chassis. Date of first registration 2008. Part 1 of the fix was to replace the engine mounts with a stiffer compound and adding a stabilising damper. This made little difference so 1 week later I was back at the Fiat garage and had Part 2 which consisted of fitting a lower reverse gear ratio. Problem sorted. The Fiat dealer was unable to tell me the new gear ratios as they just received a box of bits from Fiat labelled as Part 2 modification. As the Maxi chassis has the larger 16" wheels the ratios and final drive will be different from those on the standard chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 As always best to try out for yourself any van you are going to part with your hard earned for. I would have thought all the problem vans would be fixed by now or not be capable of moving under their own steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Steve928 - 2014-01-30 10:03 AM Derek Uzzell - 2014-01-30 9:41 AM Received wisdom seems to be that X250 vehicles with the 2.2litre motor and 5-speed gearbox either were not affected by the problem or were not sufficiently affected for it to matter. Sorry Derek but I think that this is incorrect. My then 2008 Peugeot Boxer 2.2 5 speed was affected and was subsequently fitted with a lower reverse gear by Peugeot at a cost to them of around £2000. There were 2 different fixes for the problem available from Peugeot/Citroen for the 2.2 5 speed: - those vehicles (such as mine) which already had the lower of 2 available final drive ratios had their gearboxes rebuilt using a new reverse gear and main shaft set. - those vehicles with the higher final drive were fitted with an exchange gearbox featuring both the lower reverse gear and lower final drive ratio. I have no knowledge of how Fiat handled the problem in 2.2 5 speed X2/50 though. Thanks for the correction. It's evident from your comments that X250 motorhomes based on a Peugeot Boxer with 2.2litre motor and 5-speed transmission could exhibit the juddering characteristic and that, when an owner of such a vehicle complained, Peugeot would address the problem. To the best of my knowledge an X250 Boxer and X250 Ducato (with 5-speed gearbox and 2.2litre motor) were technically identical twins. Logically, then, as this problem affected Boxers with that specification it should be expected that it would have affected Ducatos with the same motor/transmission specification. (I don't know, either, how Fiat handled complaints relating to Ducato motorhomes with the 2.2litre motor/5-speed combination - presumably in the same way.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I have the 2.2 120hp 6 speed 2008 manufactured Citroen Relay Maxi Van. Reverse gear is higher than would be ideal, but I have never found it a serious problem as I don't go over 3.5 tonne (although the van is plated for a train weight of 6.5 tonne and I am sure it would struggle to reverse uphill with that). I have spoken to about 12 whitevanmen driving X2/50 vans. None of them had even heard of the reverse gear problem. So I decided against applying for the 'fix'. The 'fixes' I have heard of don't always sound very satisfactory. And I doubt if my local dealer could strip and rebuild the gearbox to factory standards. They couldn't even replace the spare wheel carrier without fitting the wrong one, sending the van out with the spare wheel held up by just one nut only wound on a couple of turns!!!! But overall I am delighted with the van :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I bought my AT Scout on a 3litre FIAT and the clutch went after 200 miles reversing on to a pitch at a club site! But it didn't stop there apart from FIAT customer care trying to fend me off,every day I took it out something went wrong usually involving a lot of money to put right. Pity because it was a lovely conversion,just a pity that the base vehicle was a load of junk and FIAT were less than sympathetic. I cut my losses and got rid and bought a Hymer on a Transit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 yeti - 2014-01-31 12:20 AM I bought my AT Scout on a 3litre FIAT and the clutch went after 200 miles reversing on to a pitch at a club site! But it didn't stop there apart from FIAT customer care trying to fend me off,every day I took it out something went wrong usually involving a lot of money to put right. Pity because it was a lovely conversion,just a pity that the base vehicle was a load of junk and FIAT were less than sympathetic. I cut my losses and got rid and bought a Hymer on a Transit. As far as my memory serves, Fiat NEVER did issue a fix for 3 Litre Ducato's with 6 speed gearboxes who had a judder problem. They just said 'LA, LA, LA,' and put their hands over their ears. Denying that the problem existed. Moral, don't buy a second hand 3litre manual Ducato from late 2006- 2010. It could JUST be 'yeti's'. !! (or another that wasn't 'Fixed'.) My present van is on a Fiat Ducato (not much choice is there ?) of 2012, a 2.3 150bhp euro 5. AND it has to reverse my Savannah up a steep incline to park it at home. So far no problem, but it doesn't 'like' doing it , it spins the wheels but doesn't 'judder'. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 My understanding is that the type of 'fix' that was applied to smaller-engined X250-based motorhomes is not practicable with the different design of gearbox used with the 3.0litre motor. As far as I'm aware - other than minor modifications to the clutch design/materials (Nick Fisher will know) - a 2014 3-0litre X250 transmission will be no different from a 2007 one. 3.0litre-powered 'automatic' X250s have gained a reputation for being judder-proof, almost certainly because the human factor has been removed from the clutch-control equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think you are correct Derek, but that doesnt alter the fact that quite a lot of the 3 litre 'manuals' did have problems reversing uphill. maybye they still do then ? Didn't a few people with 'Comfortmatics' suffer from burnt out clutches ? I seem to remember that they did, but it was only a few, and Fiat DID repair them, as it obviously wasn't 'driver error'. As they said was the problem with ALL the others (originally) until it was PROVED otherwise. Glad it's all over. But these 2nd hand ones with potential problems are still about. And the 3rd generation Sevel came out in late 2006, the problem was heard about until Late 2009. after that they were all OK (i think ?). I hope ! Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Rayjsj - 2014-01-31 5:48 PM I think you are correct Derek, but that doesnt alter the fact that quite a lot of the 3 litre 'manuals' did have problems reversing uphill. maybye they still do then ? Didn't a few people with 'Comfortmatics' suffer from burnt out clutches ? I seem to remember that they did, but it was only a few, and Fiat DID repair them, as it obviously wasn't 'driver error'. As they said was the problem with ALL the others (originally) until it was PROVED otherwise. Glad it's all over. But these 2nd hand ones with potential problems are still about. And the 3rd generation Sevel came out in late 2006, the problem was heard about until Late 2009. after that they were all OK (i think ?). I hope ! Ray Problems with ComfortMatic transmissions on 3.0litre Ducatos are mentioned here http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-127700-days0-orderasc-0.html The peculiar thing (for me at least) was that the (apparent) severity of the 'juddering in reverse' problem in the UK was not reflected abroad. I'm not suggesting that the problem did not afflict X250s marketed outside this country, but I don't recall it being given any serious publicity in French motorhome magazines at the time or later, or hordes of camping-caristes complaining about it on French motorhome forums. A lot of X250-based motorhomes with 2.2litre and 2.3litre motors would have been sold in the UK between 2007 and 2010, all of them with manual transmission. I don't know how many of these were modified to address the juddering characteristic, but I'm guessing it would have only been a very small percentage. The remaining unmodified 2007-2010 motorhomes will now be 4 to 7 years old and I hsven't seen any recent reports about 'juddering'. This suggests that unmodified 2007-2010 X250 motorhomes either have never suffered from the problem, or have not suffered from it enough to cause their owners concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnlc Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Thank you all very much for your help. The vehicle I am looking at is definitely a mark 3 (x/250). I really wanted Macic to do an inspection but they don't have anyone in that part of the country. I'll just have to try the reverse and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Hi. To "Bump" this thread as an update:- As the owner (April 2015) of a 2007 X250 based Version. I have (so far ) had the Gearbox 6th gear issue dealt with and a "NEW" clutch (Twice). The vehicle is currently in the hands of the Dealer (8days after I received it back). For further investigation, as now I have not been able to engage 5th gear, and have had the "box Jambed in reverse twice in that short period. I understand that there is (was) a series of fixes for this issue "offered" by Fiat?. But I can find no material on this. So can anyone update me?. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 PeteH - 2016-11-12 9:02 PM Hi. To "Bump" this thread as an update:- As the owner (April 2015) of a 2007 X250 based Version. I have (so far ) had the Gearbox 6th gear issue dealt with and a "NEW" clutch (Twice). The vehicle is currently in the hands of the Dealer (8days after I received it back). For further investigation, as now I have not been able to engage 5th gear, and have had the "box Jambed in reverse twice in that short period. I understand that there is (was) a series of fixes for this issue "offered" by Fiat?. But I can find no material on this. So can anyone update me?. Pete There are loads of threads on here. Search all posts without time limit using 'reverse judder'. Here's one http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Citroen-Fiat-Peugeot-X250-juddering-problem-threads/13687/ From memory the fixes included stiffer engine mounts, lower reverse gear (or was lower final drive ratio?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 Hi, we had a 2005 autocruise stagazer which sufered from the judder problem, but at the time Webbs insisted that I should learn to drive properly. IN desperation, I contacted peugeot directly and eventually had an expert come down from coventry to my local garage to test the vehicle. Reluctantly, it was agreed that a problem existed. And they " fixed it" by changing engine mounts, and replacing the EGR valve ( exhaust gas recirculator) This slightly reduced the problem but did not eliminate it complely. They also replaced the clutch, which again helped, but not a total fix. No further fix was offered or available, so for the remaining period of my oneship, I minimised the options of reversing uphill. The van was moved on to next owner a long time ago. I now have a 2009 stargazer x250 2.3 engine which is ok, although I dont tempt fate by deliberately trying to reverse up a mountain.. Damp has been The problem, but has now been successfully resolved. Tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 My 2008 2.2 5 speed had no sign of a judder. I firmly believe people got 'the judder' into their heads and just needed some driving lessons. Why not just take the vehicle out for a drive and find a hill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 rupert123 - 2016-11-12 9:55 PM My 2008 2.2 5 speed had no sign of a judder. I firmly believe people got 'the judder' into their heads and just needed some driving lessons. Why not just take the vehicle out for a drive and find a hill? Please be aware that, the issues I posted ARE actual. "judder" per se, Is not the problem, getting the right option and or "fix" for the issues which are ongoing IS, and was the reason for "bumping" the thread to see if more recent information was available!. I would also respectfully point out that I am no "weekend" driver. I Hold a Class 1 LGV. and over a 50+ year career have an unblemished record.!!. There will be few on here who can reverse a wagon and drawbar trailer the length of a Ro-Ro Ferry!. I have driven just about anything you care to name including Classic Armoured Fighting vehicles. So I do not think "Experience" is an issue!. Edit:- ALSO. I note that your Vehicle is the 2.2 5speed, which My own information suggests are LESS affected if not entirely devoid of the issue?. I am concerned with the 2.3 6 speed vehicle. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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