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Sargent E160 and CTEK MXS 7.0 MULTI XS 7000 12V Battery Charger


trialsrider

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Hello again. I keep hearing that the Sargent Ec160 is not really a battery charger. I have a Ctek Mxs 7.0 from a previous motorhome that I'm considering fitting as well as the Sargent. My battery is a LUCAS LX31MF 110amp and I have a 100w panel on top.

 

I have two questions. Firstly is it worth fitting this charger for better charging function? It won't cost me anything as it's in the garage on a shelf anyway and I have the space to fit it.

 

Secondly, could this charger do what my Sargent is currently doing when on ehu on site i.e. providing a power source to power everything. I usually put the Sargent charger switch on which gives 13.4v when on site. I am quite a heavy user if 12v stuff especially in winter months with compressor fridge, blown air heating and poor solar output. Or would it be the case that I use the Ctek whilst maintenance charging on the drive at home and use the Sargent 13.4 v as the power source when on hook up ?

 

What are people's thoughts?

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The Sargent EC160 uses a 10amp (peak not continuous) fixed 13.5v charger, which is usually the 'Supercharge 151'.

The CTEK mxS7 is a 7 amp (peak) multi stage charger that also has some intelligence and a 14.4v 'Boost' rate.

 

The Sargent won't normally run at it's peak under major load, usually around 8 amps. Same with the CTEK but this time the continuous current is about 5 amps.

 

 

One charger may interfere with the other if wired to the same battery, only way to find out is to try it.

 

 

I suspect, that despite the CTEK's small '5 amp' contribution, that because the Sargent has a feeble 13.5v charge rate, that the CTEK's 14.4v charge rate will make a significant difference to the overall performance.

The higher voltage might also help with the Compressor Fridge efficiency and will at least cater for it's typical 4.5 amps when it is working.

The battery should also get more fully charged which you should notice when 'off grid'.

 

 

Note that the Lucas LX31 is a Starter based battery that loses capacity fast and has a very low cycle rate. One we tested didn't achieve even 30 cycles. As it degrades expect it become less efficient and give back fewer Amp hours per charge.

Typically they can be down to 50% capacity (about 45 amp hours) after a year, probably a much shorter time on a Compressor fridge?.

 

So if you want the highest efficiency think about installing a new decent battery, see our battery technology page for info on the best, low cost batteries : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

We don't sell batteries so it isn't sales motivated 'info'.

 

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aandncaravan - 2019-01-13 2:17 PM

 

The Sargent EC160 uses a 10amp (peak not continuous) fixed 13.5v charger, which is usually the 'Supercharge 151'.

The CTEK mxS7 is a 7 amp (peak) multi stage charger that also has some intelligence and a 14.4v 'Boost' rate.

 

The Sargent won't normally run at it's peak under major load, usually around 8 amps. Same with the CTEK but this time the continuous current is about 5 amps.

 

 

One charger may interfere with the other if wired to the same battery, only way to find out is to try it.

 

 

I suspect, that despite the CTEK's small '5 amp' contribution, that because the Sargent has a feeble 13.5v charge rate, that the CTEK's 14.4v charge rate will make a significant difference to the overall performance.

The higher voltage might also help with the Compressor Fridge efficiency and will at least cater for it's typical 4.5 amps when it is working.

The battery should also get more fully charged which you should notice when 'off grid'.

 

 

Note that the Lucas LX31 is a Starter based battery that loses capacity fast and has a very low cycle rate. One we tested didn't achieve even 30 cycles. As it degrades expect it become less efficient and give back fewer Amp hours per charge.

Typically they can be down to 50% capacity (about 45 amp hours) after a year, probably a much shorter time on a Compressor fridge?.

 

So if you want the highest efficiency think about installing a new decent battery, see our battery technology page for info on the best, low cost batteries : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

We don't sell batteries so it isn't sales motivated 'info'.

 

Thanks very much for your detailed response and link. I've just been having a closer look at the Ctek charger. It looks like I would physically have to switch between charging mode and power supply mode to get the 5a 12v power supply. I was hoping to fit and forget the Ctek in the battery cupboard where it wouldn't be able to do so. Would it not power my van on charge mode ?

 

I've been looking at changing batteries and was thinking about 12V Leoch 160AH AGM Battery UItra Deep Cycle. The extra height would not be a problem and it has roughly the same footprint as my current battery. The extra ampage would be useful. Sadly I don't have enough space for 2 batteries. What do you think?

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I've just been out to the van. I've had the Ctek charger on for the last six hours or so. Charger indicator is on its final stage so saying charged. The voltmeter on the Sargent panel is saying 13.5v. This is obviously with the Sargent charger function off. I fired up the fridge and put it on the coldest setting and the voltmeter read 12.8. This is with habitation lights on too. I switched off the fridge still with the ctec running and voltmeter now 13.5v again. Half hour later I switched off the ctec and voltmeter now reads 12.4. Judging by such a drop I think the leisure battery may be past its best ?
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trialsrider - 2019-01-13 7:45 PM

 

I've just been out to the van. I've had the Ctek charger on for the last six hours or so. Charger indicator is on its final stage so saying charged. The voltmeter on the Sargent panel is saying 13.5v. This is obviously with the Sargent charger function off. I fired up the fridge and put it on the coldest setting and the voltmeter read 12.8. This is with habitation lights on too. I switched off the fridge still with the ctec running and voltmeter now 13.5v again. Half hour later I switched off the ctec and voltmeter now reads 12.4. Judging by such a drop I think the leisure battery may be past its best ?

 

 

Yes you should be running the CTEK as a charger, not a power supply and if it is like the Xs7.0, it should deliver 14.4v 'boost' and 13.6v Float.

 

Your battery doesn't appear to be at it's best, could be a good time to get it tested?

 

 

I am not a fan of the Leoch batteries as some of their claims for cycle life are chemically impossible to achieve with the technology and weight of Lead they use. There is a suspicion that some Far Eastern batteries are not tested using the same BS EN standard.used in Europe.

Have a look at the figures achieved and verified by the NCC Verified battery scheme and compare the Leochs' lower technology and lighter Lead composition to the AGM Exide batteries?

Ask yourself how come the far superior Exides can't get any where near the Leoch's 'verified' figures? The Leoch AGM is almost too good to be true?

 

 

In anycase with it being AGM, it isn't suitable for charging on either the Alternator or Sargent power supply/charger? After a few months, it won't get fully charged and will degrade.

AGM batteries need 14.7v, not your vehicles 13.5 to 14.4v?

 

Your vehicle is designed around Wet/flooded Lead Acid batteries, if it was me, I would fit the best of that technology.

 

 

 

 

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aandncaravan - 2019-01-13 9:28 PM

 

trialsrider - 2019-01-13 7:45 PM

 

I've just been out to the van. I've had the Ctek charger on for the last six hours or so. Charger indicator is on its final stage so saying charged. The voltmeter on the Sargent panel is saying 13.5v. This is obviously with the Sargent charger function off. I fired up the fridge and put it on the coldest setting and the voltmeter read 12.8. This is with habitation lights on too. I switched off the fridge still with the ctec running and voltmeter now 13.5v again. Half hour later I switched off the ctec and voltmeter now reads 12.4. Judging by such a drop I think the leisure battery may be past its best ?

 

 

Yes you should be running the CTEK as a charger, not a power supply and if it is like the Xs7.0, it should deliver 14.4v 'boost' and 13.6v Float.

 

Your battery doesn't appear to be at it's best, could be a good time to get it tested?

 

 

I am not a fan of the Leoch batteries as some of their claims for cycle life are chemically impossible to achieve with the technology and weight of Lead they use. There is a suspicion that some Far Eastern batteries are not tested using the same BS EN standard.used in Europe.

Have a look at the figures achieved and verified by the NCC Verified battery scheme and compare the Leochs' lower technology and lighter Lead composition to the AGM Exide batteries?

Ask yourself how come the far superior Exides can't get any where near the Leoch's 'verified' figures? The Leoch AGM is almost too good to be true?

 

 

In anycase with it being AGM, it isn't suitable for charging on either the Alternator or Sargent power supply/charger? After a few months, it won't get fully charged and will degrade.

AGM batteries need 14.7v, not your vehicles 13.5 to 14.4v?

 

Your vehicle is designed around Wet/flooded Lead Acid batteries, if it was me, I would fit the best of that technology.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your response again. I've just looked at your link again. I will have to remeasure the battery area but off the top of my head I may just be able to squeeze in a lfd 140 or maybe two lfd 75's. My battery area is L shaped so it may just work. What would work better two lfd 75 (ran in parallel) or one lfd 140?

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They both have there advantages, but in your case, because of the compressor Fridge I would say that the 140Ah wins slightly. However, it is a 'rarer' battery than the LFD90, less call for it so if you find one it may have been on the shelf a while and already tired.

Suggest you only buy from someone like Alpha batteries and ask them to confirm it is of recent manufacture.

 

 

I was thinking yesterday about another issue that I think you had with Alternator charging?

We worked on a Swift last week that used a Durite VSR that wouldn't 'disconnect'; after the engine stopped, a problem I have a vague memory you had?.

 

In the case of the Swift van we replaced the Durite VSR with a '2 part' VSR that allows more control and this fixed his problem.

I think that if you fit one of these into the charging cable where you can access it at the Starter battery, it will cure your issues, even with leaving the old inaccessible VSR in place.

 

You will find details of the £25 device about halfway down this page here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/wiring-your-camper.php

 

The solution also has the advantage that it doesn't constantly draw current from the Starter battery, waiting for it's voltage to rise so it can 'trigger'.

Most VSR's will cause faster discharging of the Starter battery for this reason, even though the current taken is small.

 

 

If you fit a new, big, higher voltage habitation battery (the Varta has a close to 13.0v resting voltage when idle) it may make things worse than they are now as obviously the circuit will be at 13.0v, rather than the existing VSR's 12.65v 'cut-out'.

If the battery is also 'new' and higher capacity, it will be less likely to suffer such a big voltage drop to 12.6v, even under the load of the headlights, etc.

But the only way to know is try a new battery?

 

 

Have a look at the webpage pointed to above, the 2 part VSR is easy to fit and I think will make quite a difference to your setup.

 

One point of note is that the Swift's Durite VSR 'cut-out' at just over 12.5v, not the 12.65 printed on the casing. I assume because of manufacturing tolerances?

 

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aandncaravan - 2019-01-14 10:49 AM

 

They both have there advantages, but in your case, because of the compressor Fridge I would say that the 140Ah wins slightly. However, it is a 'rarer' battery than the LFD90, less call for it so if you find one it may have been on the shelf a while and already tired.

Suggest you only buy from someone like Alpha batteries and ask them to confirm it is of recent manufacture.

 

 

I was thinking yesterday about another issue that I think you had with Alternator charging?

We worked on a Swift last week that used a Durite VSR that wouldn't 'disconnect'; after the engine stopped, a problem I have a vague memory you had?.

 

In the case of the Swift van we replaced the Durite VSR with a '2 part' VSR that allows more control and this fixed his problem.

I think that if you fit one of these into the charging cable where you can access it at the Starter battery, it will cure your issues, even with leaving the old inaccessible VSR in place.

 

You will find details of the £25 device about halfway down this page here : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/wiring-your-camper.php

 

The solution also has the advantage that it doesn't constantly draw current from the Starter battery, waiting for it's voltage to rise so it can 'trigger'.

Most VSR's will cause faster discharging of the Starter battery for this reason, even though the current taken is small.

 

 

If you fit a new, big, higher voltage habitation battery (the Varta has a close to 13.0v resting voltage when idle) it may make things worse than they are now as obviously the circuit will be at 13.0v, rather than the existing VSR's 12.65v 'cut-out'.

If the battery is also 'new' and higher capacity, it will be less likely to suffer such a big voltage drop to 12.6v, even under the load of the headlights, etc.

But the only way to know is try a new battery?

 

 

Have a look at the webpage pointed to above, the 2 part VSR is easy to fit and I think will make quite a difference to your setup.

 

One point of note is that the Swift's Durite VSR 'cut-out' at just over 12.5v, not the 12.65 printed on the casing. I assume because of manufacturing tolerances?

 

Thanks for that. It is very interesting you mention the vsr because I have finally located it. I am currently rejigging the battery area and access to it and the Sargent. Once the rear panel of the furniture unit was removed I could see the vsr tucked up behind the rear of the Sargent. As you remember only the front of the Sargent was accessible before. My plan is to get the router and make permanent access to this area through the rear panel. I only noticed the vsr last night so didn't have enough time to see what sort it was but it certainly had durite on the front of it. I will have a look later tonight and see what access would be like. As you say if I can fit this in the engine battery box in the cab area that would be a winner. If it doesn't work I could just remove it and I'm no worse off except for the outlay of the vsr.

 

So what battery would you recommend for me bearing in mind my set up of Sargent panel, compressor fridge, Ctek charging and 100 w solar. I do some off grid too but more on ehu nowadays due to my 4 year old son. Battery could be up to about 190w X 450 L X 300 h. I may be able to go a bit longer in length but will need to remeasure. I could spend £200.

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An extract from the Battery Technology web page :-

 

 

The Varta LFD/Bosch L range is our "Best Budget Buy". Guide price £105.

 

The Yuasa L36-EFB is our "Best Mid range" battery. Guide price £119.

 

The Exide ET650 is our "Best Buy Heavy Duty" battery, but costs about £160.

 

The Exide ES900 is our "Best Buy Deep Cycling" battery. Guide price £180. However, the ES900 is a Gel battery so like all Gel's has several disadvantages, one of which is high the cost, but they deliver around 750 cycles at 50% DOD. It is very good at Deep Cycling and has a high number of cycles but they can take twice as long to charge up. They also need a special charge profile.

Gel batteries won't reach anywhere near their expected life if operated at higher temperatures (above 20 degrees) or at higher discharge current. Gel's will be a very poor match when paired with Inverters for example.

We think Gel batteries are too compromised for modern motorhome use, but where a special Deep Discharge need is required, little can beat them.

 

 

 

If you are mostly on EHU then you don't need a big battery.

However, setting up the area now for a bigger battery gives you more freedom to wild camp later but maybe also increases the value of the vehicle, as any future buyer will most likely want to go off grid.

 

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aandncaravan - 2019-01-14 12:11 PM

 

An extract from the Battery Technology web page :-

 

 

The Varta LFD/Bosch L range is our "Best Budget Buy". Guide price £105.

 

The Yuasa L36-EFB is our "Best Mid range" battery. Guide price £119.

 

The Exide ET650 is our "Best Buy Heavy Duty" battery, but costs about £160.

 

The Exide ES900 is our "Best Buy Deep Cycling" battery. Guide price £180. However, the ES900 is a Gel battery so like all Gel's has several disadvantages, one of which is high the cost, but they deliver around 750 cycles at 50% DOD. It is very good at Deep Cycling and has a high number of cycles but they can take twice as long to charge up. They also need a special charge profile.

Gel batteries won't reach anywhere near their expected life if operated at higher temperatures (above 20 degrees) or at higher discharge current. Gel's will be a very poor match when paired with Inverters for example.

We think Gel batteries are too compromised for modern motorhome use, but where a special Deep Discharge need is required, little can beat them.

 

 

 

If you are mostly on EHU then you don't need a big battery.

However, setting up the area now for a bigger battery gives you more freedom to wild camp later but maybe also increases the value of the vehicle, as any future buyer will most likely want to go off grid.

 

Thanks once again for the battery info. Very helpful.

 

Regarding the vsr, how easy would it be to fit baring in mind my basic electronic know how. Naively I was hoping to join two wires together and that would be it. Looks more involved.

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Suggestions for trialsrider.

 

Hopefully, without upsetting anybody, these are my thoughts.

 

Trialsrider has a van conversion, from the evidence its a DIY conversion rather than a professionally built mainstream PVC.

 

The main power/control unit is a Sargent EC160. This unit is ideal for a 1980 caravan, not a modern motorhome. The built in charger is a constant voltage power supply, able to give about 10 amps on a good day, OK as a power supply when plugged into a mains supply, provided the 12volt circuits don't take too much power, but very inadequate as a battery charger.

 

In a Citroen van conversion, the D+ signal is not easily available and the usual situation is to wire a 'ignition on' signal to the unit. There is a very primitive split charge circuit built into the EC160 but the terminal connection points and internal circuits are limited to very low currents, less than 15 amps.

 

It seems that an additional split charging system is installed using a Durite 140 amp voltage sensing relay. This arrangement, if fitted with good sized cables, say 16mm csa, would provide a good charge from the Citroen 14.4 volt (typical) alternator output. I suspect in this installation that undersized cable, poor terminations and perhaps failed fuses are compromising the battery charging.

 

With due respect to trialsrider and the forum, he needs to get someone with appropriate skills to examine the set up with suitable voltage and current measuring equipment to 'fault find' the system.

It should be possible to 'sort out ' the system with suitable wiring modifications, and prepare it to take additional charging units.

 

The electrical system may have been installed by a less than competent person, so there may be problems on the mains 230v ac side of the system than need rectifying. Here a suitable qualified technician with appropriate test equipment is needed.

 

I recommend that serious consideration should be given to a full test of the van electrical system.

 

It would be pointless fitting a replacement battery or additional charger without sorting out the problems.

 

Replacing the battery with a Leoch 160Ah AGM Battery would compound the problems as the existing system is incapable of looking after it, the EC160 could/would expire, perhaps with smoke and flames.

 

As an aside the Leoch 160 weighs in at 45 kg for 147 Ah at the 20 hr rate, so not too bad.

 

Trialsrider also has solar and a compressor fridge fitted. The amount of solar and the style of use of the van are not known, but away from a mains supply its considered that 200 to 300 watts of solar and 220 Ah of battery are need to be 'self sufficient' in the summer months. For the rest of the year, plugged in with a 20 amp quality mains charger or lots of driving with a suitable alternator charging system, would be needed.

 

Mike

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trialsrider - 2019-01-18 6:04 PM

 

Managed to spend an hour on the van tonight. The vsr although visible is totally unaccessible. It's code is duriyic 0-727-33 140 amp cut in 13.3 cut out 12.65. is this why I'm having my problems?

 

 

I agree with much of what Mike says, but you don't need to remove the old Durite. Just put the new one in place at the Starter battery end of the same cable, but powered by a ignition feed to the wire that says 'Fused feed'.

 

It does need to be more complex to install as you need to separate out the 'Charging feed' from the voltage sense supply.

 

Yes the old VSR isn't disconnecting until the battery is run down low.

Durite obviouslly don't know batteries voltages have increased over the last ten years and that 12.8v is more usually the voltage of a quality battery, the best are 13v.

 

 

.

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Unless the routing of the wiring and its connections are fully investigated you dont know exactly how the leisure battery gets its power, it it direct from the Durite VSR or via the EC160? cable size, condition and fusing? Trialsrider as already found faulty connections, there may be more. I feel a full investigation is needed before attempting any modification. Most vehicle fires are caused faulty cables, connections and electrical devices.

 

The switch off of the Dutire is a little problematic, in the Citroen a 'work round' is to switch the ignition key on again ( to the first position) immediately after the engine stops, this loads the engine battery with the glow plugs and pulls the battery volts down.

 

With any voltage sensing circuit there is a compromise with the connect and disconnect voltages.

 

The voltage sensing 'driver' device that Allen suggested using, perhaps has the same voltage levels as the Durite, but also includes the 'ignition on' as a control element, so the relay is switched off, regardless of the battery voltage, when the engine is stopped.

 

Mike

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Hi Mike

 

Thanks for your response and opinion. I totally agree with you about safety in a van. It is me and my four year old son. Who sleep in it so it is paramount in my mind.

 

I must point out the van is a professional conversion by a local converter not my own work. You would struggle to find a better finish in carpet lining and bespoke furniture. I designed the van and the guy built it to my spec. The problem of access to the Sargent unit is partly my fault not the converters as I told him where to put the unit i.e Inside a cupboard. I didn't want my son fiddling with it like on my previous van. It is just bad luck that the connections for the Sargent are on the right side of the unit behind the panel and not on the rear or left which I can access. Maybe his electrical naivity resulted in him not allowing enough slack on the cables to subsequently remove the Sargent in the event of needing too. The solar, gassit lpg system and heating was all fitted professionally by a reputable motorhome repair centre after the conversion was finished.

 

The process you describe of turning the ignition on again is what I currently do. Problem is compounded in summer months when the solar is working well. It currently clicks on very quickly but in summer it can take 30 seconds or so. My son finds it part of the camping adventure waiting for the click.

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aandncaravan - 2019-01-19 1:48 PM

 

trialsrider - 2019-01-18 6:04 PM

 

Managed to spend an hour on the van tonight. The vsr although visible is totally unaccessible. It's code is duriyic 0-727-33 140 amp cut in 13.3 cut out 12.65. is this why I'm having my problems?

 

 

I agree with much of what Mike says, but you don't need to remove the old Durite. Just put the new one in place at the Starter battery end of the same cable, but powered by a ignition feed to the wire that says 'Fused feed'.

 

It does need to be more complex to install as you need to separate out the 'Charging feed' from the voltage sense supply.

 

Yes the old VSR isn't disconnecting until the battery is run down low.

Durite obviouslly don't know batteries voltages have increased over the last ten years and that 12.8v is more usually the voltage of a quality battery, the best are 13v.

 

 

.

 

Thanks for the info. I think I will invest in one of these. I see they are now back in stock on eBay. I will get a mobile professional auto electric guy who I have used before to see what he reckons and fit it.

 

As for the new battery it seems I can't go much bigger in physical size than a 110amp battery. All the 140 ah lead batteries are 513mm long and I have 490mm available. I'm thinking of plumping for the varta lfd.

 

I have had the Ctek running on the van since I started the discussion. Seems to work well even when everything is switched on and running in the van. I'm left now with a choice of either creating a junction for it from the existing ac circuit (which is easily accessible) and either create a socket or hardwire it. Or just plug it in as required when I need it on an existing socket and use the fly charge leads which can be left in situ on the battery terminals.

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aandncaravan - 2019-01-19 1:48 PM

 

trialsrider - 2019-01-18 6:04 PM

 

Managed to spend an hour on the van tonight. The vsr although visible is totally unaccessible. It's code is duriyic 0-727-33 140 amp cut in 13.3 cut out 12.65. is this why I'm having my problems?

 

 

I agree with much of what Mike says, but you don't need to remove the old Durite. Just put the new one in place at the Starter battery end of the same cable, but powered by a ignition feed to the wire that says 'Fused feed'.

 

It does need to be more complex to install as you need to separate out the 'Charging feed' from the voltage sense supply.

 

Yes the old VSR isn't disconnecting until the battery is run down low.

Durite obviouslly don't know batteries voltages have increased over the last ten years and that 12.8v is more usually the voltage of a quality battery, the best are 13v.

 

 

.

 

Sadly the autoelectrics guy didn't think the system you suggest would help things. He felt unless the old vsr is removed things would not improve. He felt that adding a new thing to the circuit would not sort it.

 

So with the unlikelyhood of removing the Sargent and ultimately taking all the furniture apart I'll just have to put up with switching on the ignition and blowers to fire up the vsr and Sargent. He felt that the vsr is working, it's just how it's wired up which is causing the problem. Obviously I can't get to much of the wiring.

 

Battery wise I'm considering an Exide er650 140ah. It's the biggest I can fit and seems reasonable for wild camping. With my vsr also bring 140ah would this be ok ?

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