Jump to content

Starting the Engine While On mains EHU?


aandncaravan

Recommended Posts

We have just had an email question which because they have already posted on other Forums trying to get it answered, I thought it would be better answered here. I can then provide a link to see it. They can then subsequently add the link to other forum posts, if they wish.

 

The email goes :

 

Hi there, I have a question regarding Schaudt EBL. The issue have been a return question on various forums. Would be nice to get your opinion about this; If a Ducato motorhome is parked with mains connected; And the vehicle engine is started without disconnecting the mains cable; Would this damage the Schaudt EBL? Looking forward to your reply. Regards Jan (Norway)

 

 

Hello Jan, On some Charger/Power Control units, when mains 230v is connected the unit directly connects the Starter battery to the Habitation battery via a relay. If the Starter Motor is then operated there may be a tendancy for some Current to flow from the Habitation batteries to feed the Starter Motors demand for 200+ amps.

 

This current flows through the relay and the wiring either side of it which is generally 'thin'. How much current flows through the relay/wiring will revolve around how easily the Starter Battery power can flow to the Starter Motor and the 'resistance' to the current flow in the Habitation circuit.

 

If the Starter battery is perfect, the battery terminal connections good and the vehicle Earth system good then there may be little/no load on the habitation battery/relay as the Starter battery will meet the demand for power because there will be less voltage drop through the Starter battery circuit.

 

However, If the Fiat in question has a poor Earth (a known issue with this vehicle), a tired/low Starter battery or corroded battery Post/clamp terminals, then significant power could flow through the Wiring, relay, etc from the habitation battery bank.

 

Additionally, there is a risk that the mains charger will try and meet the sudden huge demand and be overloaded.

 

 

How much damage is done to the wiring/relays will depend on the current that follows. How much damage is done to the mains charger will depend on what protection is built in. There are hundreds of chargers working in different ways.

 

 

The Elektroblock range is slightly different because it does not directly link the two batteries together. The EBL's do not all work in the same way, but if we focus on the EBL 99 here.

 

The EBL 99 has inbuilt voltage/current limiting components from the charger to the Starter battery that limits Starter battery charging to just 2amps.

 

There is also additional protection because this charging goes 'backwards' down the Fridge 12v feed from the Starter battery which includes a 20A fuse right at the Starter battery itself. It does not connect into the main Starter feed to the EBL.

 

In theory if the Starter Motor is operated with Mains connected and the Starter battery, etc. is all perfect, no damage will occur. We have witnessed this and no damage has occurred.

 

 

However, we did once remove an EBL 99 with a damaged mains charger from a Motorhome that turned out to have other problems.

 

Also inside the box were burnt out current limiting components feeding the Starter battery charging.

When we checked the Starter battery Fridge fuse, it was also blown.

All suggesting 20a+ current had flowed down the cable.

 

The owners said the engine had never been started with mains connected, so don't know how that damage had occurred, but can guess.

 

 

When we fixed the charger and refitted everything, the Alternator charging of the habitation batteries had a 0.7v drop compared to the Starter batteries.

We suspected a poor Engine Earth strap and fitted another.

This brought the Habitation battery voltage up to a healthy 14.3v versus the Starter batteries 14.4v, so it seems there was an Earth issue?

The Starter battery was also new, so a sign that maybe starting had been an issue at some time?

 

So we can only guess at the cause of the EBL burnout, but all the right ingredients were there for Starting while on EHU to be an issue?

 

 

So to answer your question : on a EBL 99 and similar equipped motorhomes in perfect condition, there should be no issue with starting the engine while on EHU.

But obviously safer not to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

aandncaravan - 2017-02-07 12:43 PM

 

So to answer your question : on a EBL 99 and similar equipped motorhomes in perfect condition, there should be no issue with starting the engine while on EHU.

But obviously safer not to.

 

 

We should agree on the importance of a healthy batterybank :-D

 

If batteries "out of trim" , a lot of things could happen with the EBL´s

Also when (by accident) starting the engine while connected to the grid.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

aandncaravan - 2017-02-07 3:47 PM

 

Hello Jan, Nice to see you have joined to respond to the answer.

Welcome.

 

You write,

"We should agree on the importance of a healthy battery bank "

 

In Norway do you also have big issues with batteries 'causing trouble'?

 

Great forum :-)

 

Winter and mouses with cold feet in places not suppose to be frighten most people at this time of year :-)

Also batteries :-)

 

Batteries and charging is our most common issue I guess

At this time its all about winter, parking, charging or not,

During summer its the same. :-)

 

I always stress about "charge when you can, LED bulbs, solar, and 100 % charging".

In short; Make more Amps than you use.

Without damaging the hardware :-)

 

Some people use their motorhomes all year.

Myself I park my car this time of year.

Another 4 weeks we should be back on the road again :-)

Maybe the UK :-)

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really interesting thread - To be honest I had never thought of doing this and never have - but it seems to me that the risks of doing a lot of expensive damage outweigh any benefits, something I shall purposefully avoid - yet another subtle way of doing unintentional damage to a motorhome.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

aandncaravan - 2017-02-07 5:01 PM

 

If you do come to the UK, come to Snowdonia in Wales near were we are, you will feel at home all Mountains and Snow!!! :-D

 

http://www.snowdonrailway.co.uk/

 

Thanks for a great tip :-)

That was actually something for the bucket list.

 

Never know, I got time...

 

Some years ago I drove Dover, Bristol, Swansea to Fishguard...

on route for a wedding up north in Ireland.

Scary driving; Everybody had trouble getting on the right side of the road :-)

(I guess you guys heard that one before *-) )

Everybody was kind of scared..

My vehicle at that time was a big US truck with black windows. A lot of engine noise.

Other motorists moved to the side :-)

 

Do manage the dialect. Watching Rob Brydon in "Would I lie to you" :-D

 

I guess there is more :-)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tall_Mike - 2017-02-07 5:07 PM

 

Really interesting thread - To be honest I had never thought of doing this and never have - but it seems to me that the risks of doing a lot of expensive damage outweigh any benefits, something I shall purposefully avoid - yet another subtle way of doing unintentional damage to a motorhome.

 

Starting the engine while connected to grid we never do on purpose I guess.

But sometime we want to be on the road without any delay.

And then s**t happen :-)

 

But now we know that under normal condition this would not harm our EBL.

As long as batteries kept in good shape. :-D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We accidently drove our van off driveway while still plugged in ! Did not realise until we got back and found the lead om the drive, Fortunately no damage to van, but we did have to repair the lead !!

You only do it once!

PJay

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had the car on a mid-winter top-up charge, forgot and started reversing off the drive - just caught a glimpse of the shaddow of the lead on the garage door out of the corner of my eye and stopped in time! Easily done.

 

I have a conspicuous "TV aerial up" sign in the MH which I hook onto the steering wheel to prevent driving away, perhaps I'll do something similar while charging the car in future.  In fact I might a sign to check that my flies are done up before leaving the house now that I'm getting so forgetful.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone drove away without disconnecting the cable know the feeling;

Snapped cables, broken outlets, nosy spectators.. Just a bad feeling.

In my case also all the nagging from the 2nd pilot...

 

More expensive is the scenario I am thinking about,

The scenario that made me ask the question;

 

Is it ok to start engine if connected to the 230 VAC grid?

Will this damage the Schaudt EBL (Onboard electro distribution unit)

 

And the basic answer from AANDNCARAVAN was;

"on a EBL 99 and similar equipped motorhomes in perfect condition,

there should be no issue with starting the engine while on EHU.

But obviously safer not to."

(For the rest of the answer to my question is found in post on top of this tread.)

 

In short;

If you keep your batteries and the connection in god shape

there will be no harm done to the EBL

But, better safe than sorry

 

:-) :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tall_Mike - 2017-02-07 4:07 PM

 

Really interesting thread - To be honest I had never thought of doing this and never have - but it seems to me that the risks of doing a lot of expensive damage outweigh any benefits, something I shall purposefully avoid - yet another subtle way of doing unintentional damage to a motorhome.

 

My thoughts as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There you go, Stuart starting and reversing his vehicle is proof the Elektroblock has the protection against accidental damage.

 

However, we certainly DON'T advocate anyone doing this, as the majority of Motorhomes will not survive unscathed, exactly as we point out at the beginning of our response.

In a worst case there could be melted Sargent boxes and all sorts.

 

Hence saying, " How much damage is done to the wiring/relays will depend on the current that follows. How much damage is done to the mains charger will depend on what protection is built in. There are hundreds of chargers working in different ways".

 

Our response it 'was safe to do', as Jan points out above, was specifically for a question on the Elektroblock EBL 99 and even then we said there were risks (even highlighting a charger we removed that was burnt out) if things were not ideal.

 

So to be absolutely clear, we don't advise anyone starts the engine while on EHU.

 

The EBL 99 has protection built in, that should protect it IF the Motorhome electrics are in perfect condition. If any of the things listed in the response, like a poor battery, etc, even an EBL 99 is likely to suffer.

 

Hence us saying it is safer not to.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all, somewhere I don't know where it was I once read a great tip to avoid driving off with the h/u lead still on. When not in use tie the rolled up lead with a piece of bright string, when the lead is in use tie the string round the steering wheel, it acts as a great visual reminder,(assuming you remember what it's there for)

George

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple of times I tried to ride off my Motorbike with the Disc Lock still in place, a bit embarrassing.

 

So to stop people laughing at me, whenever I put the Disc lock on I slid a small plastic sleeve over the ignition key that prevented it going in the Ignition Lock so prevented me starting the bike.

The 'Sleeve' was just a piece of thin soft plastic tube.

 

The sleeve was retained on the keyring via a piece of cord.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jan has additionally emailed :

 

"Hello Allan, Thanks for the respond to my general concerns regarding the Schaudt EBL´s and a spinning alternator.

In your answer you mention EBL99.

I know there is a bunch of different EBL´s, and as you wrote; its hard to mention them all.

Even so, I will ask you "one" more :-) But only of you got room for unpaid time :-)

I do have "some" experience when it comes to the electrical "stuff". My engagement to motorhomes and EBL´s are only as a owner.

Helping others, I have been involved in EBL29 and EBL30 (Both installed in Hymer B series, at least between 2014 - present)

In the schematics these EBL´s looks a lot like EBL99.

What is your opinion? Same story as EBL99?

 

My motorhome is equipped with a EBL213 (bus system).

Also my motorhome is equipped with a buzzer warning that sounds if connected to grid when running engine.

For the first 6 months since I got this car it happened only once that I started engine with the cable plugged in.

The buzzer is nice to have, but if any damage happen I guess this happen in the same moment to turn the key.

 

- Batteries are separated by relay when parked, but in parallell as soon as D+ present.

- A lot of lines are fused with polyswitch fuses.

- Start battery charged at 6A max when connected to 230 VAC, but since also equipped with optional external Schaudt 18A charger I guess this does not apply.

- In the schematics I cant find any fridge line (as in the 29/30 units), but I am pretty sure the fridge got a 12 volt supply from a bus module when D+ present

Do you have any comments on this EBL213 unit?

Is it the same story for the EBL 213? Fully protected against the grid and spinning alternator as EBL99?

 

Again; better safe than sorry.

Regards

Jan."

 

 

 

 

Hello Jan, yes same story from the EBL 29, 29, 119, etc but the Schaudt EBL 213 is totally different in architecture, real space age stuff.

 

As you may know the EBL 213 uses an SDTBUS to communicate with individual, remote modules that control each Appliance/device, etc.

A bit like Canbus for a Motorhome.

These are grouped on sub modules.

 

They are a more modern version of the 2004 Arsilicii system we like so much.

 

The Fridge is controlled by the independent KRM 213 module.

It means that with modules that are intelligent you have greater control at the end point. For example when you switch on a light, by holding the button, the light starts off dim and brightens. allowing you to release the light switch when the desired brightness is reached. Or use the switch in the normal way 'press once for On, press again for OFF'

 

I liked the optional feature of a single module to lock all the draws, cupboards, etc when the engine starts to prevent everything tumbling out without the need to have stiff spring catches or mechanical locks.

 

Although we know of them and have all the technical specs for the 213, we have not yet worked on one as they are so new, therefore our knowledge is limited in respect of how it is physically installed.

However, one coming to us in March so hopefully we will get enough time to see how similar they are to the Arsilicii in design principals, because that is a nice unit.

 

 

This unit is extremely complex, with so much built in protection, so many polyswitches on so many circuits, that I would be surprised if EHU and Engine starting isn't catered for

 

But remember you only need one thing, like a poor Starter battery, to put even good 'safety' components at risk.

So we would suggest you 'disable' the starter key fob when you connect EHU, maybe putting an elastic band around it so the key won't pop out when you press the button?, to remind you not to start the engine?

 

Jan you might be interested to see this page which is a later/parallel development to the SDTBus system, which we think is more appropriate future solution as it makes Motorhome repairs and maintenance simpler :

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/the-future.php

 

 

 

On a slightly different note your AGM batteries life is likely to be shorter than you might expect for such an expensive battery?

The EBL 213 does not have the AGM battery optimised charger that was fitted to the latter boxes.

It is from the days when Schaudt were obliged to say they were compliant but then subsequently brought out specific AGM chargers with very different charging characteristics.

The EBL 213 manual states,

" We believe that AGM batteries can be charged perfectly this way. However, suitability

must be checked on a case-by-case basis using information from the battery supplier and

the charging parameters of Schaudt equipment".

 

 

Like we have done with the other EBL's we will be documenting this 'new' Canbus style approach on the website when we get more info.

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again; Tnx for your great respond to my comments.

 

Will read several times and let the info sink in...

 

 

My motorhome (Hymer SL series) is equipped with EBL213 SDTBUS,

Also factory equipped with 2x18 A charger

(one internal + one additional, and 2x160Ah GEL leisure batteries.)

(Not sure what kind of starter battery).

 

In addition I did install 400 Watts solar + Votronic 350 MPPT, and a Efoy 140 Fuel Cell.

Both connected direct to the GEL´s to avoid any "interruption" in my EBL213.

The idea is to generate more than consume, and keep the GEL´s at 100% at all time.

Hopefully I will have them for many years.

 

LiFePo4 is the latest "hot" product on our local forums.

Lot of owners converted. Personally I am in no hurry since my GEL´s are maybe one year old.

Also LiFePo4 are still priced relatively high up there.....

 

Well; I got some reading to do.

Thanks again :-)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before you consider LiFePo4 Lithium technology which won't work with your chargers, and probably not the Alternator, have a look at the Victron Energy Long Life 4,500 cycle Gel batteries?

 

Lot's of talk about Lithium technology having very long life, but the Victron Energy Gel batteries match that life, probably better in the real World, without any of the hassle associated with Lifepo4.

 

Accidently let the Lithiums go flat and they are toast, with major cost implications.

 

Let the Victron get down to 95% and you will still have a usable battery, but shorter life and most definitely not such a costly experience.

 

 

Every Lithium battery launched in the last 15 years has had amazing claims for cycle life, none of which have been lived up to, in my experience.

I would like to see some real evidence that LiFePo4 is any different.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Derek, good find, you know how much I love my technology.

 

They sound amazing batteries. Only had a quick look but the charging profiles don't seem to suit an Alternator or most Motorhome chargers?

 

They go on about the batteries needing a very exact, specific charger profile and if it isn't met the warranty is void.

 

 

I will do some more research and get back here when I have time.

 

.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not seen one or opened one up, so the below is conjecture, but I am a bit disappointed. These Lead Crystal batteries seem to be straight forward AGM batteries, according to a quote on one page : "Absorbency Mat (AGM) and lead-calcium-selenium-plates"

 

There doesn't even seem to be any decent technology used in the construction of the plates, so I don't know how they can substantiate the claims?

 

It seems "Lead crystal" is only a trade mark name, not a patented technology which is a clue to the marketing, I would suggest?

 

See : http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/shopuk/leisure_batteries_lead_crystal.htm where it says,

"All Lead Crystal® batteries have a unique micro-porous high-absorbency mat (AGM) and lead-calcium-selenium-plates"

 

 

If you look at the Lead Crystal battery web site :

http://lead-crystalbatteries.co.uk/technology/lead-crystal-battry-charging-technology

 

It states that the charging profile is a really, really strict profile with voltages mostly at 14.7v, not the14.4 to 14.7v as proclaimed on the Motorcaravanning.co.uk web site?

 

Yet only a handful of Motorhome manufacturers in the UK have chargers with anything like this voltage and certainly not the current charge rate control.

It really labours the point about the intolerance of these batteries, to anything but the EXACT charge program, just like AGM.

 

It even starts off saying in pretty much the first sentence that if the charging is not 'spot on' not only will the battery be damaged, but your warranty is invalid :

"An important precondition for a battery’s overall performance is correct charging. If you don’t adhere to the steps indicated, you may damage your battery. The manufacturer or distributor of Lead Crystal batteries is not responsible for your battery’s failure if you don’t stick to the loading profiles stated".

 

 

We now know how AGM batteries are short lived if the charging profile is not an exact match.

I honestly don't see how an AGM battery with this technology, can achieve the claimed performance? Even the very best of breed Victron Energy AGM's can't achieve 6,000 cycles, 4,500 is about the best.

 

 

Maybe in a few years time we will see Elecsol all over again :

"5 year warranty sir? Friad we can't honor that guvnor, you must have misused them or not used the right charger?".

 

Sorry it's a bit sarcastic, but when these are being targeted at Motorhome owners, who the company should know don't have a compatible charger, it's a bit wrong in my view.

 

I thought 'Lead Crystal' was going to be some new patented Technology we could all benefit from.

 

 

More on the website which states :

 

"A number of own Lead Crystal chargers have been developed specifically for Lead Crystal batteries. We recommend using these in combination with your battery. There are also chargers (which allow loading profiles to be set) that have been approved by the manufacturer, Betta Batteries. These chargers are listed at: www.leadcrystalbatteries.com. Elfa Elementenfabriek is available to answer any questions you may have, to provide advice and data on the settings. E-mail your questions or comments to info@elfa.nl.

 

 

To make optimum use of the Lead Crystal batteries’ unique properties and to be able to avail yourself of the guarantee, Lead Crystal batteries have to be charged correctly. The guidelines for this deviate from those for regular lead-acid batteries (AGM, Gel, Open lead-acid, etc.). It is therefore essential that you read the manual before charging the batteries. As otherwise you may damage them. Adhere to the instructions and benefit from the unique advantages offered by Lead Crystal batteries. You can also use the Lead Crystal chargers to charge them. These automatically ensure that the right loading profile is employed. Then you don’t have to read the rest.

 

 

 

CNFJ, CNFT and HCNFJ batteries

 

There are 4 phases to charging Lead Crystal CNFJ/CNFT/HCNFJ batteries:

 

Phase 1: Boost (rapid charging)

 

Determine the battery’s voltage and the ampere hours (C in Ah).

 

Charge with a voltage 0.3 to 0.5 times the number of ampere hours ©. I.e. charge a 40 Ah battery with 12 to 20 ampere (A).

 

Charges in this phase: 2-volt batteries to 2.45 V, 6-volt batteries to 7.35 V and 12-volt batteries to 14.7 V.

 

 

 

Phase 2: Charge

 

Once the stated voltage has been reached, turn the charging power down by half (0.15 times C in Ah). The battery voltage will decrease. Charge the 2-volt batteries back up to 2.45 V, 6-volt batteries to 7.35 V and 12-volt batteries to 14.7 V.

 

 

 

Phase 3: Topping up

 

Once the voltage stated has been reached, turn the charging power down to 0.1 times C. The battery’s voltage will now be kept constant (resp. 2.45 V, 7.35 V and 14.7 V) while we slowly reduce the charging power to 0.02 times C of the battery. The battery is now 100% charged.

 

 

 

Phase 4: Maintenance charge

 

Reduce to 2.3 V, 6.9 V and 13.7 V respectively and a charging power of 0.01 times C (Ah) or a pulse charge. This enables the battery to retain its optimum charge.

 

 

 

EVFJ batteries

 

Charging Lead Crystal EVFJ batteries has 4 phases:

 

Phase 1: Boost (rapid charging)

 

?? Determine the voltage and the ampere hours (C in Ah) of the battery.

 

?? Charge at 0.2 to 0.25 times C in Ah. I.e. 40 Ah batteries charged with 8 to 10 ampere (A).

 

?? Charge in this phase: 6-volt batteries to 7.05 V, 8-volt batteries to 9.40 V and 12-volt batteries to 14.10 volt.

 

 

 

Phase 2: Charge

 

Once the voltage stated has been reached turn the charging power down by half (0.1 times C). The battery voltage will decrease. Charge the 6-volt batteries to 7.35 V, 8-volt batteries to 9.80 V and 12-volt batteries to 14.70 V.

 

 

 

Phase 3: Topping up

 

Once the voltage stated has been reached, turn down the charging power again. Now to 0.05 times C. Now we will keep the batteries’ voltage constant (resp. 7.35 V, 9.80 V and 14.70 V) whilst gradually reducing the charging power to 0.02 times C of the battery. The battery is now 100% charged.

 

Phase 4: Maintenance charge

 

Reduce the voltage to respectively 6.84 V, 9.12 V and 13.7 V with a charge of 0.01 times C (Ah) or a pulse charge. This enables the battery to retain its optimum charge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...