Derek Uzzell Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Very much a shot in the dark, but has anyone installed a SOG system on this Thetford bench-style toilet, please? http://www.thetford.com/part/c403l-cassette/ I’m trying to establish how 12V power to the SOG’s micro-switch (and on to the door-mounted fan motor) is best provided. Naturally I’ve researched this exhaustively on-line and I’ve contacted SOK(UK) (No response so far) but there may be no easy answer where my Rapido 640 is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 When you have done the deed, please don't park near me, and I won't park near you. Horrible things, but just my opinion, they stink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Not the same unit but I connected to the fuse within that operates the level warning light that I have never seen on. Best piece of kit I have installed and no stinky chemicals to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 starvin marvin - 2016-03-21 4:04 PM When you have done the deed, please don't park near me, and I won't park near you. Horrible things, but just my opinion, they stink. My sentiments entirely, the ones that exhaust through the roof are not too bad, but through the cassette access door.........pong. sorry Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malo37 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Waste of time and money in my view - and helps to flatten your battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Malo37 - 2016-03-21 11:07 PM Waste of time and money in my view - and helps to flatten your battery. You are technically correct, buy it would take about a week so your comment is irrelevant. As no chemicals are required then there is a saving so again your post is of no relevance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Opinions about the desirability/effectiveness of SOG systems do not help me. I fitted a Type B SOG kit to the Thetford C200 toilet of my 2005 Hobby motorhome shortly after I bought the vehicle. I sold the Hobby in 2014, so I’ve nine years experience of owning a motorhome with a door-mounted SOG ventilation system. Consequently, I would suggest to starvin marvin, Rayjsj and Malo37 that I’m in a good position to know the pros and cons of these systems. If – based on my long-term practical experience – I decide to spend my time and money fitting a Type D kit to my Rapido 640’s toilet, you are going to have accept that this is my own well-reasoned choice and you will be wasting your time making negative comments as I’m just going to ignore them. I’m not interested in revisiting arguments for and against SOG kits – I asked a specific question and I’m looking for a specific answer. When installing a Type B SOG kit the wiring involved is fairly simple and the cables to connect to in the cassette-locker are easily identifiable and accessible. A Type D kit comprises more parts than a Type B kit http://www.outdoorbits.com/sog-system-kits-for-motorhomes-caravans-type-p-2215.html and the instructions about running the cable are a mite ‘sketchy’. http://www.outdoorbits.com/Brochures/sog-type-d-C400-fitting.pdf Close to where the operating microswitch needs to be fitted in a Thetford C400’s cassette-locker is a removable plastic ‘cover’ in the cassette-locker’s side-wall. This cover is actually a reed switch that senses the level of waste in the cassette and activates a light on the toilet’s control-panel. The cover also carries a fuse-way with a blade fuse protecting the toilet’s electrics. The fuse-way has a thickish red cable leading to and from it and the plug-in connector to the reed switch has a thin black cable leading to and from it. Logically I could connect the SOG’s live feed to the red cable ‘downstream’ of the blade fuse. I assume that the reed switch closes to illuminate the control-panel warning light and that one of the reed switch connector’s black cables leads to the light and the other to earth. If that’s correct I ought to be able to connect the latter cable to the SOG’s earth cable. The Type D kit installation instructions could say this is how to carry out the wiring, but as they don’t I’d like to establish if that’s the way Type D kits are normally wired up. Hence my original question... Some of the trouble with fitting a SOG Type D kit is that it’s a long reach into the cassette-locker to where the operating microswitch (and the wiring connection to it) must go. It would be a simple matter to pre-wire a Thetford C400 toilet to allow a Type D kit to be installed later, but retro-fitting the kit once the toilet has been fitted is a bit like a vet delivering a calf that’s reluctant to be born – you’ve got to get your hand a long way in and it’s difficult to see what you are doing! Rapido does not offer a SOG system as an option on the 640 model and the way the toilet is installed makes external access to the toilet’s electrical wiring impracticable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Would it possibly be easier to remove the entire toilet and then work on it on a bench? The C200 in our AT is only held in with 4 screw plus a water pipe and electrical connection and can be removed in 3 or 4 minutes. Is your C403L as easy to remove? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will H Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 What are the advantages if any of a SOG system. I've never had a problem with the blue stuff, works every time. Use it bin it re-fill it replace it simple. And I'm all for a simple life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Keithl - 2016-03-22 10:50 AM Would it possibly be easier to remove the entire toilet and then work on it on a bench? The C200 in our AT is only held in with 4 screw plus a water pipe and electrical connection and can be removed in 3 or 4 minutes. Is your C403L as easy to remove? Keith. Thetford C400 Installation instructions are here https://www.dropbox.com/s/v9wbf4zeeq3fyvx/C400-AM_32273_1205.pdf?dl=0 C400 toilets are bench-type and will invariably be built in. I’ve attached a photo of a Rapido 640’s bathroom and you’ll appreciate from this that removing the toilet would be a major undertaking. Even when removing a C200 toilet is a simple task, it would be a waste of effort where installing a SOG Type B kit is concerned as fitting and wiring up the kit is straighforward with a C200 toilet in situ. I’m not seeking advice on potential ‘work arounds’. I was just exploring the faint possibility that someone could tell me if it’s normal practice to wire up a SOG Type D kit by connecting to the fuse-holder and reed-switch cables as I’ve mentioned above. An alternative approach might be to connect back to the relay under the toilet’s control-panel, but that’s not a particularly attractive idea and may well not be practicable. All I’m really hoping to do is avoid reinventing the wheel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Will H - 2016-03-22 11:11 AM What are the advantages if any of a SOG system. I've never had a problem with the blue stuff, works every time. Use it bin it re-fill it replace it simple. And I'm all for a simple life. If you really want s simple life then with a SOG you have no chemicals to worry about, can't be that simpler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 22, 2016 Author Share Posted March 22, 2016 Will H - 2016-03-22 11:11 AM What are the advantages if any of a SOG system. I've never had a problem with the blue stuff, works every time. Use it bin it re-fill it replace it simple. And I'm all for a simple life. Plenty of earlier SOG-related forum discussion here for you to plough through http://tinyurl.com/j75clpk This long 2013 thread might be a good place to start http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/SOG-toilet-systems-any-good-/30306/ but it might be simpler if I just copy below one of my postings from within that thread: Derek Uzzell - 2013-04-08 8:35 AM 1footinthegrave - 2013-04-07 10:25 PM ...I can't see the point in a sog system... Lets ignore the claimed benefits of not needing to use toilet chemicals with a SOG system and explore how the system functions. When the 'vane' at the base of the toilet-bowl is opened the SOG ventilator-fan begins to run, drawing air into the cassette and exhausting it outside the motorhome. So, if you are urinating, any smell that might emerge from the cassette through the open vane and enter the motorhome's bathroom does not. During defecation the same process takes place (ie. no smell enters the motorhome from the cassette), but the SOG fan-unit is also now drawing air into the cassette from immediately below the defecator's bum. This air is rarely fragrant!! I've never felt any incentive to use special toilet-paper in my motorhome's cassette toilet and I'm not squeamish about the smell of human waste at a toilet emptying point. However, I'd rather not leave the bathroom in my motorhome stinking after I've used it, and I'd rather not feel a need to don a gas-mask before entering the bathroom after my wife has used it (and I'm certain she feels the same vice versa). I can understand you quibbling about the cost of retro-fitting a SOG system, but not that you "can't see the point" of such a system. The point should be clothes-peg-on-the-nose obvious I would have thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Derek - do you remember my thread on SOG and the fan polarity? Not that it matters really but may I suggest you contact SOG Germany who were very helpful when we had issues? Contact is Brigit Heinz, info@sog-dahmann.de or tel: +49 (2605) 952762 - they speak very good English and have an understanding of "technical" English as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Will H - 2016-03-22 11:11 AM What are the advantages if any of a SOG system. I've never had a problem with the blue stuff, works every time. Use it bin it re-fill it replace it simple. And I'm all for a simple life. I'm with you matey except Del boy is not interested in the cons. Those have been discounted in favour of fitting a kit. Shame really, it could be one less of them and one more of us. As you say Simples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 ken the kontiki - 2016-03-22 3:16 PM Derek - do you remember my thread on SOG and the fan polarity? Not that it matters really but may I suggest you contact SOG Germany who were very helpful when we had issues? Contact is Brigit Heinz, info@sog-dahmann.de or tel: +49 (2605) 952762 - they speak very good English and have an understanding of "technical" English as well. Thanks for the contact details - I’ll try that. The SOG instructions for installing a Type D kit on a C400 say “Locate and identify “plus” and “minus” wires in the service comparrtment by the colours red and black. Normally red is “plus” and black is “earth” (but check polarity). Connect wires using the supplied branch connectors (red), red wire in the cable to “red", black wire in the cable to “black”. Connect the other end of the wires to the extractor following the same colour coding. CAUTION The extractor does not have a blocking diode (no protection for connecting the wrong way round) and if plus and minus were reversed would turn in the wrong direction and therefore provide no extraction. Therefore check extraction is functioning.” The cassettes used with Thetford C250/260 and C400 toilets vent through their base and my Rapido 640 has a wide-diameter ventilating tube emerging from beneath the vehicle’s floor and leading back to the toilet cassette’s base-vent. In principle a similar fan-ventilation system to Thetford’s retro-fit option for the C250/260 toilet might be used, but Thetford does not offer this for the C400 toilet. (In any case the Thetford approach is less convenient than SOG’s.) The possibility exists to install a SOG II kit with the fan/filter unit in the Rapido’s garage and exhausting under the vehicle, but there would be a lot of unknowns with that approach and it would not affect the microswitch connection issue. As I mentioned above, red and black wires are present on the reed-switch ‘cover’ adjacent to where the SOG’s operating microswitch needs to go. Plainly it will be necessary to provide the microswitch with a ‘live’ and ‘earth’ connection and there doesn’t seem to be an obvious alternative to using those wires. It would be nice to have more focused guidance about this, though, than what’s in the SOG instructions. I’ve looked at lots of on-line stuff about Thetford C400 toilets and fitting a SOG kit to them, but there seems to be nothing more explicit regarding the microswitch wiring connections than what’s in the SOG instructions. The logical conclusion, then, is that the connections must be to the red and black wires under the reed-switch ‘cover’ even though the reed-switch connector’s black wires are worryingly thin. There are some amusing SOG-related discussions on non-UK forums (example here) http://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t55436048/sog-toilet-ventilation-system/ and there’s a long German forum thread suggesting that Hymer vents Thetford C400 cassettes into the motorhome’s living area via the double floor (Surely Hymer wouldn’t do that? ;-) ) but nothing about the wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Hi Derek, First post, but have been a "lurker" on the forum for over 6 months. I have a Burstner Ixeo Time 586 2015 model fitted with a Thetford C403L toilet like yours and have been trying to find out how to wire a SOG unit to this. There seems to be nothing on the net about it, with no wiring diagrams, though I have emailed Thetford UK and EU. Am still awaiting a response from them but, in the meantime, I wondered whether you had had any luck with your query? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Richard. Installation instructions for locker-door vented and through-floor vented SOG systems can be found here http://www.sognz.co.nz/installation-instructions/ There’s also a relevant video-clip here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOPG3tMKCQs In principle wiring should be straightforward as (as mentioned in the video-clip) connection can be made to black and red wires behind a small removable section that carries the toilet’s fuse and is in the cassette-locker’s wall. In practice wiring the locker-door vented SOG system I fitted to my Rapido 640F proved to be an absolute sod as Rapido’s installation methodology had resulted in there being hardly any free-play in the red and black wires. You might well find that - if you remove the fuse-holding section on your Burstner - there will be much more ‘slack’ in the red and black wires than on my Rapido and, if that’s so, connection will be simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Thanks Derek, thats very helpful info. Will have a go at wiring it in tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 7, 2017 Author Share Posted January 7, 2017 Richard I’ve re-read what I wrote in March 2016 and it’s probably worth highlighting that the red and black wires above/behind the reed-switch cover that should be used to connect up the SOG fan-unit are the thicker ones! It would be sensible too to connect to the red (ie. live) cable that’s on the ‘ouput’ side of the fuse-holder so that the fuse protects the SOG fan-unit as well as the toilet itself. As space was so tight with my Rapido I needed to cut away a small piece of the cassette-locker’s plastic ‘wall’ behind the fuse-holder to allow me to shoehorn the Scotchlock cable-connectors in. I also removed the sleeving from the wiring harness provided by SOG, extended the lengths of the cables and then put the sleeving back on where I wanted it to be. Great care needs to be taken when positioning the micro-switch as - if you get it even slightly wrong - there’s every chance that the fan won’t shut off when the toilet-bowl’s valve is closed. Also, the less space there is between the end of the cassette and the locker-door’s inner surface, the trickier it will be to arrange for the air-outlet hose to run tidily and allow the locker-door to be closed easily without manually adjusting the position of the hose. I used as short as possible hose as I could get away with, and this permitted the door to be closed without fiddling about with the air-outlet hose’s position. However, I then wasn’t confident that the inner end of the hose would reliably stay properly seated in the “oval adapter” that’s installed at the lower-front of the cassette locker, so I glued around the air-outlet hose a short Velcro ’strap’ that links with another piece of Velcro glued to the front of the cassette locker’s base near the oval adapter. I don’t know if you’ve got the traditional locker-door vented SOG system like I fitted or the SOG II version with remote fan/filter unit that normally vents through the floor. There’s no doubt that the SOG II system is preferable and should be significantly more efficient, though wiring-up presents exactly the same challenges for both system types. My experience of the locker-door vented version is that cassette ‘forced’ ventilation is not immediate when the toilet-bowl’s valve is opened. Air needs to move from the toilet-bowl through the cassette’s casing, out through the vent-valve in the cassette’s base, through the SOG pipework in the lower part of the cassette locker and then onwards through the air-outlet hose to the extractor fan. So it’s hardly surprising that there will be a short delay between the fan commencing running and air movement from the toilet-bowl becoming effective. Thetford C250/C260 toilets use a similar cassette-venting arrangement to the C400’s, but the SOG system differs as the vent in the cassette is disabled and air is extracted through an adapter in the cassette’s emptying spout. This provides a quicker reaction when the toilet-bowl’s valve is opened and should be more efficient. Unfortunately - unless the cassette locker itself were set well back from the inner face of the locker-door - this arrangement would not be practicable for a Thetford C400. Best of luck - and be careful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninpalamos Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 starvin marvin - 2016-03-21 4:04 PM When you have done the deed, please don't park near me, and I won't park near you. Horrible things, but just my opinion, they stink. "Log on for friendly chat and seek advice" blah blah. I can't see what your comment has to do with what the chap asked or how it relates as to what the forum is for. Why air such a negative personal vibe man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Derek, Thanks again for the very detailed instructions in your last post, which I have only just read. I don't seem to have a thick black cable emanating from the reed switch, just 2 thin ones and, with regard to those here is what Thetford UK said in an email to me this morning: "Thank you for your email. I suspect the SOG system should be connected to the toilet's 12V supply, which in your case would be the Red and Black wires leading from connection to the vehicle wiring loom. Please do not connect to a black wire on the reed switch, as two of the three black wires are for the level indication system and are not suitable. Please contact the manufacturer of the SOG system for guidance if you need further help." So it looks as though I will have to burrow into the bowels of the toilet control unit...to coin a pun. I haven't heard from SOG UK or SOG EU, not surprising really as the latter took Christmas and the first week of January off, returning today, but they probably wont have as definitive an answer as Thetford have provided. I have the SOG 11 version, so glad to hear that when I eventually get it working that it will be more efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 9, 2017 Author Share Posted January 9, 2017 The thicker black (earth) wire isn’t connected to the reed switch, it wiil be trying to hide above it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 I wouldn't use a door vent on a 403, the cassette has an outlet on the underside that can be connect to a SOG if you use that you can then use the thought the floor SOG kit or through the roof one, a much neater solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 lennyhb That’s what I advised in my posting of 7 January 2017 8:31 AM above, but the practicability of fitting a SOG II kit will depend on how the Thetford C403L toilet has been installed in the particular motorhome model. I probably could have fitted a SOG II kit to my Rapido 640F, with the extractor-unit venting through the floor of the rear garage, but I was reluctant to commit to doing this as I wasn’t sure what Rapido had done regarding routing wires and water hoses. It’s OK for you because the SOG II in your motorhome was not retro-fitted, but factory-fitted by Hymer who would have been fully familiar with their own construction procedures. It’s apparent from SOG’s installation instructions that there may be instances where installing a SOG II kit will just not be practicable, though it should always be possible to install the ‘door-venting’ type. As I also said earlier, irrespective of whether the kit is a traditional SOG ‘door venting’ type or a SOG II, how the SOG’s electrical cabling needs to be connected will be essentially the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 Richard Thetford do not officially ‘approve’ fitting SOG kits to their toilets, so asking Thetford for advice on how to do this is a bit like asking a Catholic priest for useful tips on having pre-marital sex... I’ve tried to remember exactly what I did when I installed the SOG kit on my Rapido. It should be evident from my 22 March 2016 8:30 AM posting above that my main concern was identiifying a suitable (black) earth wire. My Rapido has a narrow gap between the right-hand outer side of the plastic cassette-enclosure and the surrounding wooden wall. By shining a powerful torch into the gap I was able to see what was behind the cassette-enclosure’s side at the reed-switch/fuse-way position and it was apparent that this was where the toilet’s 12V live+earth supply-cable had been led to. Although I could see from within the cassette-enclosure the thickish red cable with the fuse in it, I could not immediately identify a similar black cable. Consequently, I next explored connecting up within the toilet itself by removing the toilet’s control-panel (Instructions towards the end of this large .pdf file) https://www.campshop.nl/dbdocs/attachment_20.pdf and, although this looked possible, I knew I’d then need to run at least one extra cable into the cassette-enclosure. (It was also obvious from SOG’s instructions that this was not the electrical connection method they envisaged being used.) The toilet’s 12V live+earth supply-cable is behind the plastic wall of the cassette-enclosure where the reed-switch and fuse are. The cables then go across the ceiling of the cassette-enclosure, up into the toilet’s ‘body’ and continue on to the control-panel, relay, etc. Cables then come down from the control-panel, across the toilet-enclosure's ceiling and connect to the reed-switch. The supply and reed-switch cables are neatly bundled and inset into the toilet-enclosure's ceiling above the horizontal ‘wire' that connects the toilet’s opening/closing lever to the valve in the toilet-bowl. At this stage I concluded that SOG expected me to connect to the black wire of the supply-cable that I could see at the top of the ‘box’ that houses the reed-switch and fuse.However, I couldn’t do this as I had spotted that there was a cable-tie on the supply-cable that was preventing me pulliing the black wire into the ‘box’. This is when I bit the bullet, cut away the back of the ‘box’ and snipped through the cable-tie, giving me sufficient slack in the cable to allow the Scotchlock connector to go on it (and sufficient space to shove the Scotchlock connectors and the cabling to the SOG fan-unit out of the way later). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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