TheEscapist Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Hello all I’d welcome any positive or negative experiences amongst fellow Motorhomes regard8ng towing a small car. My motorhome is 7.8m long so as mentioned by many in other threads this makes postering about very hard and entering small places in general. Last summer in the UK I saw many motorhomes on the roads towing small cars and I’m thinking a cheap manual gearbox Fiat 500 on an A-frame might be a good-solution. As I understand it wouldn’t even put miles on the car in neural ignition off, just wear through tyres slowly. I’ve thought through the pros and cons which go something like this: Pros Handy to explore locally Don’t have to move motorhome each time No miles on car if towed in neutral, engine off Easy to hook up and hook off Easy to park up next to motorhome Cons Long vehicle of around 12.5m Very hard to reverse Extra fuel consumption Tow bar etc adds extra weight to payload but nothing like real experiences. Thanks Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Do you want to use it in UK or on mainland Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEscapist Posted March 17, 2019 Author Share Posted March 17, 2019 colin - 2019-03-17 11:22 PM Do you want to use it in UK or on mainland Europe? Both. Having read around some more, it seems that to be fully safe and legally complaint it’s worth fitting a system like this: http://www.unibrake.co.uk/why-unibrake/ P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 TheEscapist - 2019-03-17 10:53 PM colin - 2019-03-17 11:22 PM Do you want to use it in UK or on mainland Europe? Both. Having read around some more, it seems that to be fully safe and legally complaint it’s worth fitting a system like this: http://www.unibrake.co.uk/why-unibrake/ P Here is the guidance on GOV.UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies As you can see it is allowed in UK, but may not be on mainland Europe, it appears that some countries may turn a blind eye, but in others such as Spain it is defiantly illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEscapist Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 colin - 2019-03-18 12:25 AM TheEscapist - 2019-03-17 10:53 PM colin - 2019-03-17 11:22 PM Do you want to use it in UK or on mainland Europe? Both. Having read around some more, it seems that to be fully safe and legally complaint it’s worth fitting a system like this: http://www.unibrake.co.uk/why-unibrake/ P Here is the guidance on GOV.UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies As you can see it is allowed in UK, but may not be on mainland Europe, it appears that some countries may turn a blind eye, but in others such as Spain it is defiantly illegal. Thanks. I guess that leaves a dolly for the front wheels or trailer for all 4 wheels. Any idea if these are legal or not abroad? I assume they are as it’s not towing, at least the latter. I will be traveling across all of Europe. Cheers Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Electric bikes are now becoming a popular alternative. 50 mile range is common, panniers for the groceries, no towing or parking issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 In this other forum thread https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Solar-Panles-Aircon-and-Generators/51511/ Paul said ...We have our home in Spain so maybe it's best to explore the north of Europe in Summer and keep the southern countries for Spring and Autumn.... Although the practice of towing a car on an A-frame may be OK in the UK, as Colin has said the practice is very definitely illegal in Spain, while French authorities are adamant that it’s illegal in France. There have also been reports of A-framers being fined in Germany. I don’t recall any UK motorcaravanner saying that they towed a car on a dolly, possibly because it would be such an unpleasant thing to do over any distance (and there would be legal implications similar to towing with an A-frame). On the following link the Camping&Caravanning Club advises on towing with a motorhome, with Pages 3 and 4 relating to A-frames https://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/datasheets/towing-motorhome/ The only sure way of towing a car legally anywhere in Europe would be to transport the car on a trailer, and there’s a specialised French system designed to carry a lightweight micro-car on a lightweight ‘platform’ that can be hinged up parallel with a motorhome’s rear wall. http://www.labissonnette.fr/ I’ve only seen one example of this (involving a large swanky Concorde A-class motorhome) but at around €20,000 for the complete system, including a brand-new car, it’s not a cheap approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deffheads Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Hi, If you don't fill the garage space with A/C. you could fit a good scooter for zipping about on. or get a 3 wheel scooter like a Peugot on a small trailer. 3 wheeler are driveable on a car licence and can't fall over, many motorhomers use these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 TheEscapist - 2019-03-18 8:13 AM colin - 2019-03-18 12:25 AM TheEscapist - 2019-03-17 10:53 PM colin - 2019-03-17 11:22 PM Do you want to use it in UK or on mainland Europe? Both. Having read around some more, it seems that to be fully safe and legally complaint it’s worth fitting a system like this: http://www.unibrake.co.uk/why-unibrake/ P Here is the guidance on GOV.UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies As you can see it is allowed in UK, but may not be on mainland Europe, it appears that some countries may turn a blind eye, but in others such as Spain it is defiantly illegal. Thanks. I guess that leaves a dolly for the front wheels or trailer for all 4 wheels. Any idea if these are legal or not abroad? I assume they are as it’s not towing, at least the latter. I will be traveling across all of Europe. Cheers Paul AFAIK a dolly is illegal apart from recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 TheEscapist - 2019-03-18 8:13 AM colin - 2019-03-18 12:25 AM TheEscapist - 2019-03-17 10:53 PM colin - 2019-03-17 11:22 PM Do you want to use it in UK or on mainland Europe? Both. Having read around some more, it seems that to be fully safe and legally complaint it’s worth fitting a system like this: http://www.unibrake.co.uk/why-unibrake/ P Here is the guidance on GOV.UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies As you can see it is allowed in UK, but may not be on mainland Europe, it appears that some countries may turn a blind eye, but in others such as Spain it is defiantly illegal. Thanks. I guess that leaves a dolly for the front wheels or trailer for all 4 wheels. Any idea if these are legal or not abroad? I assume they are as it’s not towing, at least the latter. I will be traveling across all of Europe. Cheers Paul It may help to understand the legalities if you take account of the main difference between UK law and the law as applied in most of the rest of Europe. Broadly, under UK law, if something is not illegal under statute or common law, or otherwise regulated against, it is deemed legal. As no-one has yet been legally challenged for A framing a car in UK, there is no common law precedent, and no relevant specific regulations or statute law has been made. Hence the famous "grey area" of A frame use in UK. Simply put, as there is nothing that says you can't, you can! Under the laws of (AFAIK most, if not all) European states, the logic is reversed, and something is deemed illegal if it is not specifically authorised. Certainly in France and Spain, the only vehicles that are permitted to tow other vehicles are licenced break-down vehicles, with very limited exceptions for broken down vehicles that can be removed in emergency in the interests of safety, but with stringent requirements as to max speed, the type of tow bar (for exemple a homologated tow pole in France) that can be used, and a requirement to use hazard flashers while doing so. At about this point someone usually says, what about the Vienna Convention or Road Traffic, that says (in terms) that any vehicle/combination that is "road legal" in any signatory country must be deemed legal on the roads of any other signatory country? Fine, but an A frame is not "legal" in the UK, it is merely not illegal, so its legality cannot be proved. No proof of legality = not legal, once outside the UK! However, as it is argued in UK that, legally, a car towed on an A frame merely becomes a trailer, it becomes legally necessary for the towed car to comply with the UK trailer regulations. So, as cars have brakes (and braked trailers must have brakes that actually function), the brakes on the trailer must operate in response to braking of the towing vehicle, and there must be a functional hand brake (from memory, operable without need to enter the trailer - so the car's own handbrake won't, strictly, suffice). Plus, it must be capable of being reversed without the driver having to exit the driving seat to release the trailer brake to facilitate reversing. (Also, be aware that if the car brakes rely on a servo for their functionality, the servo must function while the trailer is being towed, to ensure the efficiency of its braking.) It must also carry a trailer lighting board showing the towing vehicle's registration number, with triangular red reflectors, a high intensity rear fog light (that in your case should be appropriate to both right, and left, hand traffic), plus the normal tail, brake, and indicator lights, all wired so as to function with the towing vehicle lights. (This may require some CANBUS intervention with the Ducato electrics, so that the additional trailer lighting loads don't register as faults.) As your van is new and under warranty (and also under Type Approval regulations), be aware that AlKo (who make the rear van chassis) have requirements for attaching towbars to their chassis, failure to observe which is liable to void the AlKo chassis warranty. It would therefore be wise to check first with AlKo what Type Approved towbars can be fitted to the chassis on your van, and what towing load and trailer downforce limitations apply. Also, check the Carthago, Fiat and AlKo VIN plates (should also be in the Carthago handbook) to see whether there is a reduced towing limit on your van. Some larger, heavier, vans achieve their enhanced MAMs by "borrowing" some of Fiat's normal towing limit and re-applying it to the motorhome, with the result that the towing limit for the motorhome is reduced. The limit you are looking for is the Gross Train Weight (GTW), which will be the second, largest, number below the VIN in each case (the first number is the MAM, the third and fourth are the front, and rear, axle limits respectively). You may see that the Fiat GTW has been reduced by AlKo, and then again by Carthago. It will be the Carthago plate that rules. Subtract MAM from GTW to arrive at the maximum weight of trailer that you can, legally, tow. Then, take 7% of that figure as your ideal trailer downforce figure (the rule of thumb to maintain trailer stability when towing). It represents the static vertical load placed on the towball. Less than that figure risks a "normal" one or two axle trailer (i.e. not a car :-)) beginning to sway from side to side when under tow. For cross-border certainty, the only fool-proof solution is to tow the car on its own trailer. This will have its own load limit, which must obviously be sufficient for the weight of whatever car you place on it. Be a little cautious of trailers that have generous surplus load carrying capacity, as there is another difference between UK and European legal interpretations here. In the UK, providing the actual weight of car + trailer do not exceed the trailer's plated weight limit, and the actual combined weights of tow vehicle plus trailer, do not exceed the tow vehicle's GTW figure, the combination is legal. Outside the UK, however, irrespective of the actual weights of tow vehicle and/or trailer (providing neither is overloaded) it will be the plated limits that count. So, if the sum of the plated MAM of the tow vehicle (the first figure on VIN plate, plus the plated MAM of the trailer, exceeds the plated GTW figure, the tow vehicle will be deemed overloaded, and an offence will have been committed. Finally, be aware that all towbars have two limits: the first is the maximum weight of trailer that can legally be towed, the second the maxim permissible downforce that can be applied to the hitch. Both are legal limits. That is why it is important to do that 7% of actual trailer weight calculation, to be sure that the downforce desirable for trailer stability is within the downforce limit for the towbar. Hypothetically, if you find that your car weighs, say, 900kg, and a suitable trailer has a self-weight of, say, 250kg, but has a plated limit of 1,500kg, and your van has a trailer weight limit (GTW - MAM) of, say, 1,350kg, you would be OK in UK - because 900kg + 250kg = 1,150kg, so within the 1,350kg towing limit. However, this would be illegal outside the UK because the 1,500kg MAM for the trailer exceeds the 1,350kg towing limit of the motorhome. This could be remedied by asking for the trailer to be down-plated to 1,350kg, so as to be legal in both legislatures - but you can't then load the trailer above 1,350kg in UK on the basis that its original MAM was 1,500kg! :-) Oh, and in simple terms a dolly, braked or otherwise, is a no-no whichever side of the ditch you happen to be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Derek. I’ve only seen one example of this (involving a large swanky Concorde A-class motorhome) but at around €20,000 for the complete system, including a brand-new car, it’s not a cheap approach. " I think you missed a zero, €200,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 As suggested by Deffheads have you considered a small scooter? Ours is fitted to rack on the back (Honda Vision 110cc). No issues with reversing, parking etc. and in warm climates they are superb fun. We did more miles on the bike (4000) on our last Euro trip than we did in the van. You need a decent payload though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancepar Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Paul, If you do go for an A-frame go for a modern one, they are a lot lighter. Mine is manageable and I won't be changing it, it's an over-run brake system, But if doing it again I would go for a lighter frame with a different method of applying the cars brakes. UK use only, I'd hire a trailer if thinking of taking a car abroad. Regarding a bike/scooter etc, do you have pets? Our two dogs go in the back of the Smarty., they don't like it and wriggle about in my jacket when on the motorbike. Couple of photos One is similar to a Moho and Smart seen at Upton Steam Rally one year. Other is ours on route to the Isle of Man. Yes reversing is a pain, try and avoid it, any car pushed backwards on a A-frame without someone doing the steering will cause front wheels will lock over due to the steering geometry.. To stop my brakes applying if I ever needed to reverse I would remove the over-run cable, yes I know this does not constitute an auto- reset situation as it should. HTH B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 sshortcircuit - 2019-03-18 11:07 AM Derek. I’ve only seen one example of this (involving a large swanky Concorde A-class motorhome) but at around €20,000 for the complete system, including a brand-new car, it’s not a cheap approach. " I think you missed a zero, €200,000 I was, of course, just referring to the cost of the complete “La Bissonnette” system (trailer + brand-new micro-car) with no allowance for the cost of any motorhome to which the "La Bissonnette” system might be attached. In fact, I was underestimating the price at €20K http://www.labissonnette.fr/tarifs-remorque-voiture-bissonnette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 10:30 AM ...Oh, and in simple terms a dolly, braked or otherwise, is a no-no whichever side of the ditch you happen to be! If the “ditch” is the Atlantic Ocean, it seems that - on the other side of the ditch an RV towing a car with a dolly is acceptable practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-18 1:52 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 10:30 AM ...Oh, and in simple terms a dolly, braked or otherwise, is a no-no whichever side of the ditch you happen to be! If the “ditch” is the Atlantic Ocean, it seems that - on the other side of the ditch an RV towing a car with a dolly is acceptable practice. Sorry Derek. Shouldn't use colloquialisms, should I? :-D I thought "the ditch", colloquially, was the Channel, while the Atlantic, colloquially, was "the pond"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrix Meanderer Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 I can understand the pros and cons of towing a small car but - what a palaver :-D Why not just buy a caravan and tow that?? Job done. Loads cheaper and no issues with A frames. Must admit that motorhomes towing cars is one of our pet hates, as you might have gathered. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 We agree with Ian, we bought our MH to have all our facilities with us whether we just go out for the day or move from one area to another. We spent enough years camping and having to 'pack the car' to go out every day with flasks, picnic, kids shoes (don't ask about that!) that we vowed never again, hence no TOAD for us. My suggestion would be try before you buy, especially with the restrictions on A-Frames in mainland Europe. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billggski Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 It divides opinion, some see it as a sensible addition to your mobility, others as an abomination that runs counter to the free spirit of motorhoming. Just make up your own mind after listening to the pros and cons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:22 PM ...Sorry Derek. Shouldn't use colloquialisms, should I? :-D I thought "the ditch", colloquially, was the Channel, while the Atlantic, colloquially, was "the pond"? There was no dount what you meant - I was being deliberately irritating. ;-) Interesting though that RVs towing a car on a dolly is not only done, but that it’s apparently considered a genuine alternative to an A-frame or trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Derek Uzzell - 2019-03-18 6:38 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:22 PM ...Sorry Derek. Shouldn't use colloquialisms, should I? :-D I thought "the ditch", colloquially, was the Channel, while the Atlantic, colloquially, was "the pond"? 1 There was no dount what you meant - I was being deliberately irritating. ;-) 2 Interesting though that RVs towing a car on a dolly is not only done, but that it’s apparently considered a genuine alternative to an A-frame or trailer. 1 Who, you? Surely not! :-D 2 Yes - unless what they are calling a dolly is a bit more sophisticated than those we normally use for breakdown recovery. Also, US RVs tend to be quite large and heavy compared to the average EU variety, so possibly overall braking performance is less affected/critical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocs Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 A dolly is for recovery only. An A-frame is legal in the UK and should be legal in Europe but there have been a. number of instances, especially in Spain, of Police issuing penalties. A-frames are difficult to reverse. I towed a Smart on a trailer for over 6 years and found it very useful although it is a faff every time it’s loaded/unloaded due to the straps. We don’t tow a car with our current MH and find that we can go most places and park, even in the centre of places like Bordeaux and Reims. It makes life simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEscapist Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 11:30 AM TheEscapist - 2019-03-18 8:13 AM colin - 2019-03-18 12:25 AM TheEscapist - 2019-03-17 10:53 PM colin - 2019-03-17 11:22 PM Do you want to use it in UK or on mainland Europe? Both. Having read around some more, it seems that to be fully safe and legally complaint it’s worth fitting a system like this: http://www.unibrake.co.uk/why-unibrake/ P Here is the guidance on GOV.UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies As you can see it is allowed in UK, but may not be on mainland Europe, it appears that some countries may turn a blind eye, but in others such as Spain it is defiantly illegal. Thanks. I guess that leaves a dolly for the front wheels or trailer for all 4 wheels. Any idea if these are legal or not abroad? I assume they are as it’s not towing, at least the latter. I will be traveling across all of Europe. Cheers Paul It may help to understand the legalities if you take account of the main difference between UK law and the law as applied in most of the rest of Europe. Broadly, under UK law, if something is not illegal under statute or common law, or otherwise regulated against, it is deemed legal. As no-one has yet been legally challenged for A framing a car in UK, there is no common law precedent, and no relevant specific regulations or statute law has been made. Hence the famous "grey area" of A frame use in UK. Simply put, as there is nothing that says you can't, you can! Under the laws of (AFAIK most, if not all) European states, the logic is reversed, and something is deemed illegal if it is not specifically authorised. Certainly in France and Spain, the only vehicles that are permitted to tow other vehicles are licenced break-down vehicles, with very limited exceptions for broken down vehicles that can be removed in emergency in the interests of safety, but with stringent requirements as to max speed, the type of tow bar (for exemple a homologated tow pole in France) that can be used, and a requirement to use hazard flashers while doing so. At about this point someone usually says, what about the Vienna Convention or Road Traffic, that says (in terms) that any vehicle/combination that is "road legal" in any signatory country must be deemed legal on the roads of any other signatory country? Fine, but an A frame is not "legal" in the UK, it is merely not illegal, so its legality cannot be proved. No proof of legality = not legal, once outside the UK! However, as it is argued in UK that, legally, a car towed on an A frame merely becomes a trailer, it becomes legally necessary for the towed car to comply with the UK trailer regulations. So, as cars have brakes (and braked trailers must have brakes that actually function), the brakes on the trailer must operate in response to braking of the towing vehicle, and there must be a functional hand brake (from memory, operable without need to enter the trailer - so the car's own handbrake won't, strictly, suffice). Plus, it must be capable of being reversed without the driver having to exit the driving seat to release the trailer brake to facilitate reversing. (Also, be aware that if the car brakes rely on a servo for their functionality, the servo must function while the trailer is being towed, to ensure the efficiency of its braking.) It must also carry a trailer lighting board showing the towing vehicle's registration number, with triangular red reflectors, a high intensity rear fog light (that in your case should be appropriate to both right, and left, hand traffic), plus the normal tail, brake, and indicator lights, all wired so as to function with the towing vehicle lights. (This may require some CANBUS intervention with the Ducato electrics, so that the additional trailer lighting loads don't register as faults.) As your van is new and under warranty (and also under Type Approval regulations), be aware that AlKo (who make the rear van chassis) have requirements for attaching towbars to their chassis, failure to observe which is liable to void the AlKo chassis warranty. It would therefore be wise to check first with AlKo what Type Approved towbars can be fitted to the chassis on your van, and what towing load and trailer downforce limitations apply. Also, check the Carthago, Fiat and AlKo VIN plates (should also be in the Carthago handbook) to see whether there is a reduced towing limit on your van. Some larger, heavier, vans achieve their enhanced MAMs by "borrowing" some of Fiat's normal towing limit and re-applying it to the motorhome, with the result that the towing limit for the motorhome is reduced. The limit you are looking for is the Gross Train Weight (GTW), which will be the second, largest, number below the VIN in each case (the first number is the MAM, the third and fourth are the front, and rear, axle limits respectively). You may see that the Fiat GTW has been reduced by AlKo, and then again by Carthago. It will be the Carthago plate that rules. Subtract MAM from GTW to arrive at the maximum weight of trailer that you can, legally, tow. Then, take 7% of that figure as your ideal trailer downforce figure (the rule of thumb to maintain trailer stability when towing). It represents the static vertical load placed on the towball. Less than that figure risks a "normal" one or two axle trailer (i.e. not a car :-)) beginning to sway from side to side when under tow. For cross-border certainty, the only fool-proof solution is to tow the car on its own trailer. This will have its own load limit, which must obviously be sufficient for the weight of whatever car you place on it. Be a little cautious of trailers that have generous surplus load carrying capacity, as there is another difference between UK and European legal interpretations here. In the UK, providing the actual weight of car + trailer do not exceed the trailer's plated weight limit, and the actual combined weights of tow vehicle plus trailer, do not exceed the tow vehicle's GTW figure, the combination is legal. Outside the UK, however, irrespective of the actual weights of tow vehicle and/or trailer (providing neither is overloaded) it will be the plated limits that count. So, if the sum of the plated MAM of the tow vehicle (the first figure on VIN plate, plus the plated MAM of the trailer, exceeds the plated GTW figure, the tow vehicle will be deemed overloaded, and an offence will have been committed. Finally, be aware that all towbars have two limits: the first is the maximum weight of trailer that can legally be towed, the second the maxim permissible downforce that can be applied to the hitch. Both are legal limits. That is why it is important to do that 7% of actual trailer weight calculation, to be sure that the downforce desirable for trailer stability is within the downforce limit for the towbar. Hypothetically, if you find that your car weighs, say, 900kg, and a suitable trailer has a self-weight of, say, 250kg, but has a plated limit of 1,500kg, and your van has a trailer weight limit (GTW - MAM) of, say, 1,350kg, you would be OK in UK - because 900kg + 250kg = 1,150kg, so within the 1,350kg towing limit. However, this would be illegal outside the UK because the 1,500kg MAM for the trailer exceeds the 1,350kg towing limit of the motorhome. This could be remedied by asking for the trailer to be down-plated to 1,350kg, so as to be legal in both legislatures - but you can't then load the trailer above 1,350kg in UK on the basis that its original MAM was 1,500kg! :-) Oh, and in simple terms a dolly, braked or otherwise, is a no-no whichever side of the ditch you happen to be! Thanks as ever Brian, for the incredibly helpful information. It would then seem I have the following decisions, in this order: 1. Do I think a Toad outweighs its inherent inconvenience? 2, Can I even fit a towbsr easily to my Liner For Two. Nothing listed and no reply from manufacturer or dealer. 3. Do I then invest in La Bissonnette or similar as this seems the only viable solution for (UK) and European travel? I’m unclear what vehicle that actually is on La Bissonnette? Is it proprietary? P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEscapist Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 crocs - 2019-03-18 11:26 PM A dolly is for recovery only. An A-frame is legal in the UK and should be legal in Europe but there have been a. number of instances, especially in Spain, of Police issuing penalties. A-frames are difficult to reverse. I towed a Smart on a trailer for over 6 years and found it very useful although it is a faff every time it’s loaded/unloaded due to the straps. We don’t tow a car with our current MH and find that we can go most places and park, even in the centre of places like Bordeaux and Reims. It makes life simpler. I guess you hit the nail on the head. How easy is it to park up in a 7.8m motorhome in centres? I’m not worried about the 2,27m width as that’s only marginally wider than my Range Rover but 7.8m long and 3.1m high seem a challenge! P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEscapist Posted March 18, 2019 Author Share Posted March 18, 2019 TheEscapist - 2019-03-18 11:28 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 11:30 AM TheEscapist - 2019-03-18 8:13 AM colin - 2019-03-18 12:25 AM TheEscapist - 2019-03-17 10:53 PM colin - 2019-03-17 11:22 PM Do you want to use it in UK or on mainland Europe? Both. Having read around some more, it seems that to be fully safe and legally complaint it’s worth fitting a system like this: http://www.unibrake.co.uk/why-unibrake/ P Here is the guidance on GOV.UK. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies As you can see it is allowed in UK, but may not be on mainland Europe, it appears that some countries may turn a blind eye, but in others such as Spain it is defiantly illegal. Thanks. I guess that leaves a dolly for the front wheels or trailer for all 4 wheels. Any idea if these are legal or not abroad? I assume they are as it’s not towing, at least the latter. I will be traveling across all of Europe. Cheers Paul It may help to understand the legalities if you take account of the main difference between UK law and the law as applied in most of the rest of Europe. Broadly, under UK law, if something is not illegal under statute or common law, or otherwise regulated against, it is deemed legal. As no-one has yet been legally challenged for A framing a car in UK, there is no common law precedent, and no relevant specific regulations or statute law has been made. Hence the famous "grey area" of A frame use in UK. Simply put, as there is nothing that says you can't, you can! Under the laws of (AFAIK most, if not all) European states, the logic is reversed, and something is deemed illegal if it is not specifically authorised. Certainly in France and Spain, the only vehicles that are permitted to tow other vehicles are licenced break-down vehicles, with very limited exceptions for broken down vehicles that can be removed in emergency in the interests of safety, but with stringent requirements as to max speed, the type of tow bar (for exemple a homologated tow pole in France) that can be used, and a requirement to use hazard flashers while doing so. At about this point someone usually says, what about the Vienna Convention or Road Traffic, that says (in terms) that any vehicle/combination that is "road legal" in any signatory country must be deemed legal on the roads of any other signatory country? Fine, but an A frame is not "legal" in the UK, it is merely not illegal, so its legality cannot be proved. No proof of legality = not legal, once outside the UK! However, as it is argued in UK that, legally, a car towed on an A frame merely becomes a trailer, it becomes legally necessary for the towed car to comply with the UK trailer regulations. So, as cars have brakes (and braked trailers must have brakes that actually function), the brakes on the trailer must operate in response to braking of the towing vehicle, and there must be a functional hand brake (from memory, operable without need to enter the trailer - so the car's own handbrake won't, strictly, suffice). Plus, it must be capable of being reversed without the driver having to exit the driving seat to release the trailer brake to facilitate reversing. (Also, be aware that if the car brakes rely on a servo for their functionality, the servo must function while the trailer is being towed, to ensure the efficiency of its braking.) It must also carry a trailer lighting board showing the towing vehicle's registration number, with triangular red reflectors, a high intensity rear fog light (that in your case should be appropriate to both right, and left, hand traffic), plus the normal tail, brake, and indicator lights, all wired so as to function with the towing vehicle lights. (This may require some CANBUS intervention with the Ducato electrics, so that the additional trailer lighting loads don't register as faults.) As your van is new and under warranty (and also under Type Approval regulations), be aware that AlKo (who make the rear van chassis) have requirements for attaching towbars to their chassis, failure to observe which is liable to void the AlKo chassis warranty. It would therefore be wise to check first with AlKo what Type Approved towbars can be fitted to the chassis on your van, and what towing load and trailer downforce limitations apply. Also, check the Carthago, Fiat and AlKo VIN plates (should also be in the Carthago handbook) to see whether there is a reduced towing limit on your van. Some larger, heavier, vans achieve their enhanced MAMs by "borrowing" some of Fiat's normal towing limit and re-applying it to the motorhome, with the result that the towing limit for the motorhome is reduced. The limit you are looking for is the Gross Train Weight (GTW), which will be the second, largest, number below the VIN in each case (the first number is the MAM, the third and fourth are the front, and rear, axle limits respectively). You may see that the Fiat GTW has been reduced by AlKo, and then again by Carthago. It will be the Carthago plate that rules. Subtract MAM from GTW to arrive at the maximum weight of trailer that you can, legally, tow. Then, take 7% of that figure as your ideal trailer downforce figure (the rule of thumb to maintain trailer stability when towing). It represents the static vertical load placed on the towball. Less than that figure risks a "normal" one or two axle trailer (i.e. not a car :-)) beginning to sway from side to side when under tow. For cross-border certainty, the only fool-proof solution is to tow the car on its own trailer. This will have its own load limit, which must obviously be sufficient for the weight of whatever car you place on it. Be a little cautious of trailers that have generous surplus load carrying capacity, as there is another difference between UK and European legal interpretations here. In the UK, providing the actual weight of car + trailer do not exceed the trailer's plated weight limit, and the actual combined weights of tow vehicle plus trailer, do not exceed the tow vehicle's GTW figure, the combination is legal. Outside the UK, however, irrespective of the actual weights of tow vehicle and/or trailer (providing neither is overloaded) it will be the plated limits that count. So, if the sum of the plated MAM of the tow vehicle (the first figure on VIN plate, plus the plated MAM of the trailer, exceeds the plated GTW figure, the tow vehicle will be deemed overloaded, and an offence will have been committed. Finally, be aware that all towbars have two limits: the first is the maximum weight of trailer that can legally be towed, the second the maxim permissible downforce that can be applied to the hitch. Both are legal limits. That is why it is important to do that 7% of actual trailer weight calculation, to be sure that the downforce desirable for trailer stability is within the downforce limit for the towbar. Hypothetically, if you find that your car weighs, say, 900kg, and a suitable trailer has a self-weight of, say, 250kg, but has a plated limit of 1,500kg, and your van has a trailer weight limit (GTW - MAM) of, say, 1,350kg, you would be OK in UK - because 900kg + 250kg = 1,150kg, so within the 1,350kg towing limit. However, this would be illegal outside the UK because the 1,500kg MAM for the trailer exceeds the 1,350kg towing limit of the motorhome. This could be remedied by asking for the trailer to be down-plated to 1,350kg, so as to be legal in both legislatures - but you can't then load the trailer above 1,350kg in UK on the basis that its original MAM was 1,500kg! :-) Oh, and in simple terms a dolly, braked or otherwise, is a no-no whichever side of the ditch you happen to be! Thanks as ever Brian, for the incredibly helpful information. It would then seem I have the following decisions, in this order: 1. Do I think a Toad outweighs its inherent inconvenience? 2, Can I even fit a towbsr easily to my Liner For Two. Nothing listed and no reply from manufacturer or dealer. 3. Do I then invest in La Bissonnette or similar as this seems the only viable solution for (UK) and European travel? I’m unclear what vehicle that actually is on La Bissonnette? Is it proprietary? P Found the Aixam details. 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