david lloyd Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Hi everyone About six months ago we stayed at a small commercial site in Hexham and whilst there our Truma Combi 6002EH stopped working on electric. I checked the handbook and did as suggested – tried the reset switch but it didn’t fix the problem. It then goes on to say that it is likely to be a fuse that should be checked by a service engineer. The Knaus Sun Ti is less than a year old so I thought I would get it rectified under warranty and rang the supplying dealer who agreed to let me use a dealer much nearer to home who was a Truma agent too. On investigation it proved to be a blown (surge protection?) fuse so, big relief all round – EXCEPT - Truma will not repair under warranty faults that occur as a result of the failure of consumable items. That much is fair enough but the siting of the boiler meant that it took a couple of hours to get at the fuse (dismantle and reassemble the fixed rear bed) and that cost me just over £76!! The dealer who repaired it said that it was unusual and they had never had one blow before so that was reassuring and they gave me a spare fuse in case it did happen again. I spoke to my own dealer afterwards who, after hearing the story, confirmed that Truma would not reimburse the cost of rectifying the fault but advised that if it blew again then they may wish to look at it again. Well – it has happened again this weekend on a small farm CL. I have spoken to the dealer but he clarified that he meant if the fuse had blown again immediately after replacing it then Truma would want to look at it as it would be likely that a fault had occurred on the boiler causing it to continually blow the fuse. However, he felt that in these two instances it was likely that a ‘dirty’ 240v supply was the cause of the problem. He explained that if the incoming supply dropped below 220v or surged higher than 240v (the operating range of the equipment) then the fuse would blow. I certainly don’t mind the fuse blowing and doing the job it is intended to do but, because the boiler is so inaccessible, I am concerned if this is to happen on a regular basis and wondered if any other users had suffered the same problem? Any thoughts anyone? Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 First suggestion, talk direct to Truma technical. Usually helpful.Second suggestion, ignore dealer who is talking rubbish. If a fuse blows it is because the power flowing on the circuit exceeds the rating of the fuse. The fuse is there to protect the wiring and will (should!) have been rated with sufficient capacity to accommodate the maximum conceivable draw of the appliance. It has blown because there is a fault of some kind in either the wiring, the fuse rating or the heater itself. If the fuse is mounted on the heater and is Truma supply, it is unlikely to be poor fuse rating, so a wiring or heater fault is suggested.Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 In addition to the excellent advice that Brian has written. I am not an expert on the Truma Combi 6002EH and there is no schematic for me to reference, but if its one of the three fuses I can see on the link http://tinyurl.com/223yfh and parts list http://tinyurl.com/2gf68p fuses No 9, 10 and 16, it looks like the fault is on the control PCB or whatever the control PCB is controlling, and not on the fuse protecting the 240 volt heating element, which will be covered by the resetable fuse on the main distribution unit. I suppose what I am saying is, it is worth you building a case of possible causes, or at least trying to understand the problem, rather than submitting to the wild and often inaccurate reasoning of some technicians. Not all customer engineers are honest straight forward people, some tend to shift the responsibility from themselves as you are finding out. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 The Truma C6002EH "reset switch" forms part of the heater's overheating protection system. David will be aware of this, but (for information purposes) I'll quote the relevant section from the Operating Instructions leaflet. "Overheating protection 230V The 230V heating facility has a mechanical overheating switch. If the 12V power supply is interrupted during operation or during the after-run period, for example, the temperatures within the unit could trigger the overheating protection. To reset the overheating protection, let the heater cool down, slide cover on power electronics upwards and push in red button." The fuse that protects the 230V power-supply is housed within the power electronics 'box' fixed to the side of the heater. The Operating Instructions advise that replacement must be with a 10A fuse, slow-acting and with interrupting capacity "H". I'm no electrical engineer, but the explanation of a 'dirty' mains power supply doesn't seem unreasonable to me, given that the original and replacement fuses have both survived 6 months before failing. (I used to work in an organisation that had computer work-stations plugged into fused 230V outlets integrated into the office furniture. These work-stations had massive monitors that, when switched on, were prone to blow the supply fuses until special more surge-tolerant fuses were fitted.) Truma(UK) technicians should be able to say whether the problem is well known. Truma's warranty terms are clearly stated in the Operating Instructions leaflet and, as David says, 'consumable items' that fail as a result of natural wear and tear are excluded. The warranty also includes the following paragraph: "Additional costs based on complicated removal and installation conditions of the appliance (eg. removal of furniture or parts of the vehicle body) do not come under warranty." Truma's Installation Instructions for a C-Series heater advise that the appliance should be installed so that predictable interventions (like having to change a fuse) and removal of the unit for repair are straightforward. That many (most?) motorhome builders choose to ignore this instruction and make the appliance inaccessible can't be blamed on Truma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ord Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Hi, I find it hard to accept the explanation of low voltage causing the surge protection fuse to blow. I regularly check the voltage in my van when in Spain and often find it well below 200 volt. On one occasion in La Manga I had a reading of 185 volt!! the auto energy selection on the fridge had turned to gas!! which alerted me. I too run a Truma 6002 EH and have not had any problems but the siting of my unit on a Rapido 924F leaves something to be desired as it requires the sink removing to access it as was done when the safety recall was done. The access hatch will allow me to get to fuses and little more. I think it needs to be left at the supplying dealers on 230 volt to prove the point one way or the other. Bill Ord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Any work carried out by a competent and confident repair/service technician should be guaranteed for a reasonable amount of time. In my own case, chargeable work carried out by me was guaranteed for at least a fortnight, and sometimes more against a reoccurrence of the same or a related fault - not until I went out the door. It would strike me as significant if an unusual occurrence such as a fuse blowing had happened, it would spur me on to find out why. Manufacturing tolerances will take into account field operating conditions such as reduced and so called dirty power supplies, otherwise every time we switched a high load in the MH for example, our kettles, our immersion heater, electric fires, fuses would be popping all over the place, and there would be more reported faults of the type David has. Only in the case of i/c logic data lines and their low voltage drivers etc. would I expect spikes to effect and then only rarely operations, certainly not servo type circuits which are designed to operate high current devices, such as solenoids and motors. When a blown fuse occurs, you don’t just replace the thing and blame it on the time of the month or some such indefinable reason. There are proper diagnostic procedures to follow if you know them ! what does the fuse protect? are those periphery devices within tolerance?, to check down to component level (not board level) requires factory courses or a highly experienced and motivated technician who know their onions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 Terrytraveller - 2007-02-27 11:26 AM Any work carried out by a competent and confident repair/service technician should be guaranteed for a reasonable amount of time. In my own case, chargeable work carried out by me was guaranteed for at least a fortnight, and sometimes more against a reoccurrence of the same or a related fault - not until I went out the door. It would strike me as significant if an unusual occurrence such as a fuse blowing had happened, it would spur me on to find out why. Manufacturing tolerances will take into account field operating conditions such as reduced and so called dirty power supplies, otherwise every time we switched a high load in the MH for example, our kettles, our immersion heater, electric fires, fuses would be popping all over the place, and there would be more reported faults of the type David has. Only in the case of i/c logic data lines and their low voltage drivers etc. would I expect spikes to effect and then only rarely operations, certainly not servo type circuits which are designed to operate high current devices, such as solenoids and motors. When a blown fuse occurs, you don’t just replace the thing and blame it on the time of the month or some such indefinable reason. There are proper diagnostic procedures to follow if you know them ! what does the fuse protect? are those periphery devices within tolerance?, to check down to component level (not board level) requires factory courses or a highly experienced and motivated technician who know their onions. Hi terrytraveller Many thanks to you and all the others for the comments. I share the same view that it is an unusual occurrence for the fuse to blow and must have some underlying cause. I have taken the advice and rang Truma to speak to one of their technicians. He feels it could be either the PCB or a faulty heating element and needs further investigation. No mention of hobgoblins on the line or some such wafer thin excuse!! After mulling it over I am just about to ring them back and see if they will let me take it to the service centre at Derby to diagnose the problem properly rather than have the dealership do it. Will let you know the eventual outcome. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Hi David, Pleased you are having it sorted by a specialist, a dealer knows a lot about everything but not everything about a lot, does that sound right? Truma and others are shy of supplying schematics, I haven’t a schematic for my boiler/ heating system when it decided to go on holiday, while we were on holiday with a run fail fault. I extracted the control pcb, removed and re-seated all the header plugs I could find and reassembled the lot, its been working okay for two years now. So connectivity is a problem with these devices and many other devices I have found. Had I taken it to a dealer he would have replaced the control pcb and charged me around £300 for the replacement part, it would have fixed the connectivity problem at great expense to me. Removing and refitting the control pcb only took ½ hour, it’s a pity the manufacturers don’t have a repair and test service that dealers can use. The company I worked for had test beds set up to diagnose and repair suspect pcb’s all at very reasonable cost, these reasonable costs were then passed onto the customer. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 Hi Terry I have it booked in at Truma for next Wednesday so hope to get it sorted then. When I looked at the Truma site: www.trumauk.com to find the contact details they also have scematics for the various boilers - didn't help me a great deal but you may find them useful. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Good luck David. For what it's worth, I'm sure you're following the best possible route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 David: Presumably Truma will carry out the diagnosis and any rectification needed free of charge, including the labour involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 DerekThey should, providing the fault turns out to be in the Truma heater. If it lies elsewhere, however, it will probably depend upon how they feel about goodwill, and how long they take to find it! Lets hope they feel generous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 Derek Uzzell - 2007-02-27 7:01 PM David: Presumably Truma will carry out the diagnosis and any rectification needed free of charge, including the labour involved? Hi Derek Yes, it is going in to them under warranty and one of my reasons for taking it direct to them rather than the dealer (in addition to their expertise with the whole item) is that, should the fault be a faulty part, they should have a replacement to hand and can (hopefully) effect a repair straight away whereas, the dealer would probably have to order the part and it would mean another trip for me. In my original post I recounted how, on the first occasion the fuse blew, the dealer had to dismantle the rear bed to gain enough access to allow him to get at the control box to use a test meter. The end result was, found blown fuse, replaced and tried switching the heater on, worked, replaced bed frame and broke the news to me that warranty didn't cover the work so presented me with the bill for over £76!! Lesson learned - before going to Truma I will dismantle the bed frame myself this time! Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hi everyone - just an update on the blowing fuse problem. Had it into Truma's excellent facility near Derby today. First fifteen minutes were spent diagnosing the problem and ruling out some possibilities like the heating elements before pinpointing the printed circuit board (PCB) in the main control panel and replacing it. The heater was then run for about 50 minutes whilst I enjoyed a cup of coffee in the splendid and spotlessly clean restaurant and watched a little sky news. End result - well the fuse hasn't blown and only time (and some use of the heater/boiler) will tell if this has totally eliminated the fault. It was a 300 mile round trip that has taken all day but, I have to say that the courteous reception and treatment I received, the time and effort taken to find and remedy the fault then test the heater leaves the treatment I received at the hands of the dealer looking sadly lacking I'm afraid. I would have faced a similar trip to get it to the dealer who may, or may not, have come to the same conclusion but, if he did, would have had to order the PCB and then I would have faced another trip in one, two, three - possibly more....week's time to effect the fitting. The Truma engineer believes that, rather than just replacing the fuse, the dealer should have investigated the fault in more detail to try to ascertain the possible cause - consulting Truma, if necessary, for more technical advice. Truma also feel that the dealer should have then recovered the cost of the work from them instead of charging me for replacing the fuse. This is interesting as it contradicts what the dealer said at the time - that truma would not deal with the blown fuse under warranty as it was just a 'consumable' item!! I now have to decide whether to try and get the dealer to refund my money and recover his costs from Truma direct - or put it all down to another learning experience Regards, David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrytraveller Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Hi David, Pleased you have it sorted and thanks for coming back with your report. If anyone else gets the same problem at least they will have your experiences to draw from, make a note of exactly when the PCB was replaced as you should have another 12 months warranty on the PCB. I would chase the dealer for a refund too. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Can’t say “I told you so” because I didn’t! But if I had I would have said the PCB as well. Based on experience with my ALDE heating and an electric domestic shower they seem to be an obvious starting point for fault diagnosis. I must say ALDE where very good, an engineer came to my home in London twice from the Midlands before he got it right. Have the same system as you on new van which I am expecting this month and not looking forward to the heating at all, as there seems to be so many problems with TRUMA Well done – and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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