VIN Plate conundrum

[Wallynnette]

Morning all, whilst doing an oil/filter change the other day my eye caught the vin plate top No and its 3650kg. I thought the top No was max running weight, 1 was front axle 2 was rear axle and the othe figure was for towing. Please put me right if my understanding is incorrect. Now on my log book it says revenue weight 3500kg, the Max permissible mass is also 3500kg. Mass in service is 2965kg so my understanding is my payload will be 535kg. All of these weights are also printed on the Swift conformity certificate, nowhere does it say 3650kg. But the Fiat certificate of conformity says the technically permissible maximum laden mass is the same as on the VIN plate at 3650kg. Any ideas?.

[Robinhood]

There should be a second, Swift, weight plate on the vehicle for 'stage 2', the conversion, and it should match the Swift CoC, at 3500.

 

AFAIK, the maximum the Fiat light chassis can run at (without further modification) is 3650, but it is regularly downplated by converters because of the >3500 implications.

 

Edited to add - it is the last stage plate and CoC that is applicable.

[Billggski]

The light chassis can be rated at 3850 without modification. Mine is.

1850kg front, 2000kg rear.

But this needs careful loading. It's the V5 that counts for your actual load rating, the VIN plate should be amended to match any change in rating, but sometimes it isn't done and sometimes the old one is left on.

[Robinhood]

..if you've managed to upgrade a current light chassis to 3850kg, then I bow to your experience.

 

It does, however, contradict the experience of others, including a few who have posted on here, that a 'van plated by Fiat at 3650 but downplated by the converter to 3500 can only be uprated unmodified back to the 3650 original (and this seems a very common factory option).

 

As regards the VIN plate, technically the original VIN plate should not be altered (it should be retained to match the stage 1 Fiat CoC). If the converter makes changes which are reflected on their (stage 2 CoC), then an additional VIN plate should be added to the vehicle. The last plate added during a staged conversion process is the legally applicable one.

 

There should be an additional (3500kg) Swift plate attached to the vehicle. Conventionally, this would be affixed next to the original Fiat plate, or at least somewhere in plain sight, but certainly historically, Swift have used some odd locations (such as on the passenger seat plinth!).

 

In these days of stricter type approval, it is less likely that they've mistakenly omitted a second plate, but I know from experience they have done in the past (I got one in the post, well after purchase. :-) )

[Keithl]

There is of course another possible answer....

 

Namely that the original dealer registered the MH at 3,500 kg without realising it was plated at 3,650 kg.

 

A very simple mistake it seems from previous posts on here! And if no one has spotted this mistake until now it shows how easy it is to make.

 

Anthony,

 

If you cannot find a Swift plate showing the GVW of 3,500 kg then it may be worth asking Swift if they can supply one to match your V5C and keep you legal. That is assuming you are happy to operate your MH at 3,500 kg?

 

Keith.

[weldted]

Although not connected to the vin plate query, I have a Elddis Aspire 255 originally 3500 kg uprated to 3700 kg by Elddis owing to the very small payload. Following discussions with S V tech I have uprated it to 3850 kg by fitting semi air suspension and gone from 215/75/15 to 225/75/15 hopefully this answers the comment about Uprating the light chassis to 3850.

[mgnbuk]

" There is of course another possible answer....

 

Namely that the original dealer registered the MH at 3,500 kg without realising it was plated at 3,650 kg.

 

A very simple mistake it seems from previous posts on here! And if no one has spotted this mistake until now it shows how easy it is to make. "

 

Or, possibly more likely, the original owner chose to have it registered PLG rather than PHG.

 

Maybe for licence reasons or because the disadvantages of PHG outway the advantages - which is the case for us. Both my old Roller Team & current Chausson could be registered at 3650, but both quite useable at 3500 - higher speed limits, lower tolls & fewer applicable weight limts outweigh the extra payload & lower road tax for us, though I appreciate that some vehicles may need the extra 150kg to be useable & legal.

 

Nigel B

[Derek Uzzell]

All Swift Rio models were marketed with a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of 3500kg with - according to the Swift brochures - no option to choose a MAM of 3650kg.

 

The Fiat Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis is available as standard with a MAM of 3650kg but, as Robinhood advises above, motorhome manufacturers regularly market vehicles based on that chassis with a MAM reduced to 3500kg for driving-licence-related and other reasons.

 

This is the case with my 2015 Rapido 640F that carries a Fiat VIN-plate indicating a MAM of 3650kg and a Rapido VIN-plate indicating a MAM of 3500kg. Rapido offered a no-cost option to choose a MAM of 3650kg but I chose not to opt for this - if I had the Rapido VIN-plate would have shown a MAM of 3650kg.

 

Just like Wallynnette’s Swift my motorhome’s Fiat Type-Approval Certificate of Conformity (CofC) shows a MAM of 3650kg, while the Rapido ‘2nd stage’ CofC shows a MAM of 3500kg. My motorhome’s V5C document shows a ‘Revenue weight’ of “3500 KG GROSS” and the vehicle is road-taxed in the “PRIVATE/LIGHT GOODS (PLG)” class. This is all 100% normal and correct, and exactly what I would anticipate.

 

As Robinhood has mentioned, if a Type-Approved vehicle’s construction is ‘multi-stage’ (as it will be with a coachbuilt motorhome) there should be a VIN-plate for each stage. My Rapido has two VIN-plates - one for the Fiat chassis and a 2nd relating to Rapido’s conversion - and it’s the information on the final-stage VIN-plate that ‘counts’.

 

When a Type-Approved coachbuilt motorhome is built on an AL-KO chassis, construction will involve three stages - so there should be a VIN-plate relating to the base vehicle, a 2nd VIN-plate relating to the AL-KO chassis, and a 3rd VIN-plate relating to the final conversion stage - and it’s the weight-data on the 3rd VIN-plate that override whatever weight-data there are on the earlier two VIN-plates.

 

As Robinhood has also said, there ought to be a Swift-provided VIN-plate on Wallynnette’s “Rio”. The Rapido VIN-plate on my motorhome is at the front of the engine-compartment and securely riveted next to the Fiat VIN-plate. That seems to be the logical place to put the ‘final-stage’ VIN-plate, but I don’t think it HAS to be there and there has been discussion in the past about Auto-Trail employing an adhesive label rather than a rigid metal plate. The likelihood is that Wallynette's motorhome does have a Swift-provided VIN-plate somehere and common-sense dictates that the Swift plate should be reasonably visible and accessible (eg. NOT located behind the vehicle’s number-plate!)

 

If Wallynnette’s motothome actually does not have a Swift VIN-plate to override the Fiat-plate data and reduce the Fiat-stated MAM of 3650kg to 3500kg, there is the small possibility that this could cause problems during a road-side inspection.

 

This January 2017 forum thread discussed the MAM of a Fiat Ducato ‘light’ chassis being increased well beyond 3650kg, but it is not relevant in Wallynnette’s case.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Upgrading-fiat-light-to-4000kg-/46144/

[Billggski]

I just checked the specification for my Dethleffs A5881 and the max weight is definitely 3850kg. It was registered at that from new. I took the precaution when replacing my tyres to go to 225 75 15 to give some margin for safety, but otherwise it is as standard.

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s fairly well known that X250/X290-based motorhomes built on a ‘light’ base + Al-Ko chassis can be marketed with a MAM of 3850kg, though this MAM will be an ‘upgrade’ from the Fiat/Peugeot original weight-maximum.

 

Burstner and Dethleffs have evidently both marketed models with a 3850kg MAM and using the Fiat ‘light’ camping-car chassis. Once again this will be a converter-provided ‘upgrade’ from the MAM of the original chassis, as should be apparent from the motorhome’s CofCs.

[Robinhood]

Keithl - 2018-04-17 7:53 PM

 

There is of course another possible answer....

 

Namely that the original dealer registered the MH at 3,500 kg without realising it was plated at 3,650 kg.

 

A very simple mistake it seems from previous posts on here! And if no one has spotted this mistake until now it shows how easy it is to make.

 

Keith.

 

...I would never discount the cock-up theory, but since the vehicle, according to the Swift CoC, left the factory rated at 3500kg, my money is on it having been registered entirely correctly.

 

 

 

weldted - 2018-04-17 11:14 PM

Although not connected to the vin plate query, I have a Elddis Aspire 255 originally 3500 kg uprated to 3700 kg by Elddis owing to the very small payload. Following discussions with S V tech I have uprated it to 3850 kg by fitting semi air suspension and gone from 215/75/15 to 225/75/15 hopefully this answers the comment about Uprating the light chassis to 3850.

 

...the final figure of 3850kg was, of course, after a modification (and this particular mod is consistent with the advice given to others going above the 3650kg standard.

 

It leaves me, albeit only mildly, intrigued by the 3700kg ex-(Elddis) factory figure, and I can only assume that something odd was done here by Elddis. I'm not sure, for instance, that the 215/75/15 tyre size (if you haven't mis-typed) was a standard fit by Fiat - it certainly doesn't figure in any of the Ducato documentation I've got (which is far from conclusive), and a slightly bigger tyre size might account for a slight difference in MAM. (I think Elddis still convert on Peugeot, though, and they may have slightly different practice).

 

Billggski - 2018-04-18 1:29 PM

 

I just checked the specification for my Dethleffs A5881 and the max weight is definitely 3850kg. It was registered at that from new. I took the precaution when replacing my tyres to go to 225 75 15 to give some margin for safety, but otherwise it is as standard.

 

This intrigued me, as I didn't/don't think that is possible on an unmodified (light) chassis as delivered from Fiat. Research indicates however that in 2009 (as I believe your 'van is) shipping it on the light chassis at 3850kg certainly was a (cost option), but the option cost of >€400 indicates that it is likely that some physical modification was carried out by Dethleffs, since there are other (largely paper) upgrade/downgrade options in the range that are much cheaper than this.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if your 'van included some Dethleffs-fitted "aftermarket" parts from Goldschmitt or some other similar organisation.

[weldted]

Re the Elddis MAM on the Peugeot chassis, the Aspire was originally marketed at 3500 kgs but was found to then have a payload of only 240 kgs. At the time of purchase Elddis were offering a (free) paper upgrade to 3700 kgs. This was on 215/75/15. To get the 38500 kg semi air was fitted but also needed the 225/75/15 tyres to get 2000 kg at the rear axle.

[Derek Uzzell]

To the best of my knowledge no tyre marketed as suitable for a motorhome or light commercial-vehicle is available in 215/75 R15 size, and that is also true for a 225/75 R15 siize.

 

The Elddis will undoubtedly have been fitted with 215/70 R15 tyres origininally and probably 215/70 R15CP tyres made by Michelin or Continental.

 

The load-index of a 215/70 R15C or 215/70 R15CP tyre will be 109, equating to a 2060kg maximum axle-load. When upgrading to 3850kg SVTech normally advise that a ‘semi air’ system be added to the rear suspension and that original 215/70 R15 rear tyres be replaced by 225/70 R15 ones. 225/70 R15C tyres will normally have a load-index of 112, equating to a 2240kg maximum axle-load.

[Robinhood]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-04-19 9:36 AM

 

To the best of my knowledge no tyre marketed as suitable for a motorhome or light commercial-vehicle is available in 215/75 R15 size, and that is also true for a 225/75 R15 siize.

 

 

I can source 225/75 R15 commercial tyres (albeit from a very limited number of marques, but, as you say, I draw a blank on the 215/75 R15 size.

[Billggski]

Yup, my memory is slipping, they are 70 section.

[Wallynnette]

Well thanks all for that info, very enlightening. I've looked for a 'Swift VIN Plate/sticker' all over but haven't found one yet. Thanks anyway

[Derek Uzzell]

To locate the VIN (or vehicle chassis number) this Swift Group webpage

 

https://www.swiftgroup.co.uk/about/contact-us/get-in-touch

 

advises as follows:

 

"For Motorhomes, the VIN can be found on the front windscreen and on the plate of the front cross member within the engine compartment and on the Swift manufacturer's plate situated on the front bulkhead.”

 

(Whether “...situated on the front bulkhead” means the Swift plate should be within the engine compartment or within the cab is anybody’s guess! If your Rio has removable carpeting that covers the bulkhead in the cab’s footwells, you might try pulling back that carpet just in case the Swift plate is behind it.)

 

There’s also this little gem from Brownhills

 

https://www.brownhills.co.uk/build-serial-number-locations.html

 

but, although there MIGHT be a build-number label behind a Swift motorhome’s rear number-plate, I doubt that’s where Swift would put a Stage 2 VIN-plate.

 

It’s possible that your Rio has no Swift VIN-plate (or VIN sticker), but it ought to have one to override the Fiat VIN-plate that carries a 3650kg MAM datum.

 

I suggest you contact Swift and ask exactly where the Swift VIN-plate should be on your Rio and - based on Swift’s response - if the plate/sticker is not where Swift say it should be (or you haven’t been able to find the plate/sticker elsewhere) then ask how you should obtain a Swift Stage 2 plate/sticker confirming that your Rio’s MAM is 3500kg.

[Wallynnette]

Thanks for that, I shall indeed have another look and contact Swift if no luck.

[Brock]

I thought that to comply with regulations, the chassis/VIN plates should be easily visible to a DVSA Inspector and anyone else who needed the information. They should not be hidden.

 

I have two plates under the bonnet on the upper cross member, the original Fiat plate [3650kg] and the AlKo plate [3,500kg]. On the offside by the rear wheel visible to all, I have a Hymer plate which is for 2000kg on both axles [3,500kg]. The van was registered with a Revenue weight of 3,500kg.

 

When I uprated the van, I understood from what SV Tech told me that the new sticker [3,850kg] must go next to the Hymer sticker. The van is now registered with a 3850kg Revenue weight. I'm satisfied that I have the right plate and Revenue weight.

 

The design of the van means I am highly unlikely to be able to use more than 3650kg because there is no room to put more loading on the front axle [1650 kg at present]. My Hymer dealer and local tyre fitter said I would need new wheels and tyres on the rear axle to increase the load rating above 2,000kg. Another tyre fitter says my alloy wheels will take the wider tyre necessary to go to 2240kg.

 

Add in that Hymer cannot explain why my 2013 van has the front 2000kg Goldschmitt standard suspension of the 2014 models rather than the the 1850kg Fiat front suspension of the 2013 model which is what Hymer records originally showed. It's no wonder that what should be a relatively straight forward matter leads to confusion. Oh for the halcyon days of motorhoming when a bog standard motorhome was all you needed.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

This 2011 document relates to ‘VIN Plates’ for EC Type-Approved vehicles.

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM%3Ami0072

 

Evidently the ‘plate’ can comprise a metal rectangle or a rectangular self-adhesive label. Advice is given that the plate/label “...must be affixed in an accessible position and be visible. It must be stamped so as not to disappear under normal conditions of use of the vehicle.”

 

This 2014 forum discussion related to a 2010 IH Motorhomes Mercedes-based motorhome that apparently had no VIN-plate whatsover:

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/VIN-plate-information-and-weight-limits/36167/

 

The motorhome’s owner did not say whether a plate was ever discovered.

[laimeduck]

Brian & Robin Hood did a lot of delving in this thread from 2011 where I was querying why I found 3 vin plates on my Benimar!

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/240kg-load-margin-anyone-/21557/61/

These are the 3 plates I have :- 

I have found a "certificate" from SvTech giving : 

3850 
5500 
1- 1850 
2- 2120 
This is the same as the stick-on printed (black plastic - easily removable?) plate in the footwell 
The certificate is signed by SvTech (Stephen Heap) but not by the customer, & is dated 01/04/05. This would suggest that Robin was correct ref "point of sale upgrade" 

Interestingly the engine compartment riveted plate says 
3500 
5500 
1- 1850 
1- 2120 
So I can tow up to 2000Kg? 

But the riveted plate by the habitation says 
3500 
3500 
1- 1850 
1- 2120 
(so I can Tow 0 Kg?) 

[Pete-B]

 

I have precious little knowledge on VIN plates and weights other than the basics including payload etc but I'm a little confused at the moment. I've got a Bessacarr E462 which is a 3500kg van with a payload of 500kg or so Swift say!

 

Anyhow, I've had various things fitted which include solar panels, extra leisure battery, levelling rams, and air suspension, tow bar etc. I Loaded up for last trip including a small trailer we tow and called in on local weighbridge and found I only had 50kg to spare. So I'm thinking perhaps I should, up plate to future proof us as we have no intension of changing the van. I spoke to technical at Swift and they said "there's no way I could do this with my van". Someone suggested ringing SV Tech which I did and they said, "because you've had full air fitted we can get the van re-plated to 4 ton" which is a little over 4000kg.

 

I don't want to pay £50-£100 for a medical to get my C1 back and find it's a waste.

.

[Derek Uzzell]

You own a 2015 Bessacarr E462 that has ECWVTA (European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval) and, consequently, it should carry two VIN-plates, a Fiat plate relating to the Ducato chassis sold to Swift and a Swift/Bessacarr 2nd plate (or label) attached to the vehicle when the chassis has been converted into a motorhome.

 

As the information on the Swift-provided VIN-plate defines your motorhome’s ECWVTA status, it’s hardly surprising that Swift will not authorise changes to those data.

 

I’ve always found it more than a mite peculiar that it’s possible in the UK for a specialist company (eg. SvTech) to essentially alter the status of a motorhome with ECWVTA by ‘uprating’ its original weight limits and that the DVLA/DVSA happily tolerates this.

 

You’ve had an expensive modification made by VB-Airsuspension but, when it comes to altering the weight-data on your motorhome’s VIN-plates, that won’t cut any ice with Swift (and probably not with Fiat either) - but SvTech have told you that the VB-Airsuspension system would allow your Bessacarr’s Fiat Ducato ‘light’ chassis’s maximum authorised mass (MAM) to be increased to over 4000kg.

 

I’m not suggesting SvTech’s advice is ‘wrong’ or that the ‘uprating’ would conflict with UK regulations, but 4000kg is approaching the MAM of a Ducato ‘heavy’ chassis that has, as standard, larger front brake discs and wheels/tyres than a standard Ducato ‘light’ chassis.

 

The UK is very laid back regarding bureaucratic requirements relating to vehicle modifications, and the weight-uprating procedure that is commonly applied to motorhomes here would not be acceptable in other countries (eg. France) or would require far more oversight and regulation.

[Billggski]

An interesting point.

What actually are the regulations/laws/specifications that would prevent an owner just registering the vehicle as they see fit and filling in a VIN plate?

I've rebuilt several classic cars and land rovers over the years and usually just left the existing plate on the chassis. In some extreme cases had to make a VIN plate where none existed.

The 3500kg cut off for plg may need a weighbridge certificate,

[plwsm2000]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-04-22 8:39 AM

 

....

 

I’m not suggesting SvTech’s advice is ‘wrong’ or that the ‘uprating’ would conflict with UK regulations, but 4000kg is approaching the MAM of a Ducato ‘heavy’ chassis that has, as standard, larger front brake discs and wheels/tyres than a standard Ducato ‘light’ chassis.

 

....

 

 

My van is rated at 3850kg but according to the V5C, I can legally tow a 750kg UNBRAKED trailer. This would imply that the existing brakes and wheels are capable of stopping a 4600kg vehicle (incl. trailer). This is on a "light" chassis.