Varta LFD90 Batteries

[ron.]

Can anyone tell me if the Varta LFD90 batteries will fit under the current standard Fiat revolving driver and passenger seats please? I'm between vans at the moment so cannot measure up myself.

 

Ron

[Derek Uzzell]

Depends what’s under the seat...

 

My 2015 Ducato-based Rapido has its leisure-battery in the rear garage. The passenger-side cab seat-base contains a jack/tool-kit in a plastic storage box and the driver-side seat-base contains a plastic tray clipped to a wire frame that might well obstruct fitting a Varta LFD90.

 

I believe Chausson installs the leisure-battery under a Ducato’s swivelling cab-seat (not the greatest of ideas if the battery needs to be replaced) so it’s likely that an LFD90 would go in as its height of 190mm is relatively low.

 

https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/varta-lfd90.html

[ron.]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-02-24 3:10 PM

 

Depends what’s under the seat...

 

My 2015 Ducato-based Rapido has its leisure-battery in the rear garage. The passenger-side cab seat-base contains a jack/tool-kit in a plastic storage box and the driver-side seat-base contains a plastic tray clipped to a wire frame that might well obstruct fitting a Varta LFD90.

 

I believe Chausson installs the leisure-battery under a Ducato’s swivelling cab-seat (not the greatest of ideas if the battery needs to be replaced) so it’s likely that an LFD90 would go in as its height of 190mm is relatively low.

 

https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/varta-lfd90.html

 

Thanks Derek

 

The passenger side tool box comes out leaving a nice clear area - or in my 2014 Ducato it did. I would imagine that the drivers side tray might also come out.

[Deneb]

Assuming that by standard Fiat seats you are referring to the X250/X290 vehicles, I am confident that you would be able to fit a single LFD90 across the width of the underseat area, but there are a few issues with fitting a single LFD90 front to rear, or fitting two of the batteries side by side in either orientation.

 

I have two Hankook DC27MF batteries under my driver's seat, each measuring 302mm in length, 172mm in width and 220mm in height. These fit comfortably side by side with their length oriented front to rear, but would not fit oriented across the seat, as the combined width of both batteries, 344mm is too much.

 

The restriction front to rear results from the shape of the rear seat frame legs, which each have strengthening ribs projecting into the underseat area, and a combination of a thin metal rod running between the two front legs (which I believe is a support for the underseat tray normally fitted by Fiat in the van versions) and a fairly large wiring loom running across the floor directly in front of the front seat mountings.

 

The Varta LFD90 measures 353mm in length, 175 mm in width and 190 mm in height. It's length is only a few mm more than the combined width of my two Hankook batteries, so will comfortably fit across the width of the seat, but would have the same problem of being constrained lengthways by the gap between the rear seat legs and the front metal rod and wiring loom.

 

However, as the Varta is 30mm less in overall height than my Hankooks, there should be sufficient clearance to fit two Vartas, with the caveat that they would have to rest over the wiring loom at the front of the seat, and you may also have to cut away the metal rod between the front seat legs. I doubt that the rod is a great issue as it appears to me to only be a holder for the original storage tray and not a critical structural member.

 

I would not be particularly happy about resting batteries directly on the wiring loom however, with the weight and possibility of chafing surely presenting a risk of future damage to the loom.

 

The lower overall height of the Vartas might make it possible to create a raised platform on the floor beneath the seat, which overhangs the wiring loom. That would be additional work though.

 

The photo of my setup might help to illustrate what I have described. You can just make out the loom beneath the floor covering to the front of my batteries. I did find an article on the internet a while ago where someone had installed two slightly longer batteries than mine, after using two spreader bars to "stretch" the wiring loom forward and relocate it to provide clearance. Not something I would be happy with though!

 

Incidentally, I know that Allan has previously referred to these Hankook batteries and their identical cousins with Numax and other labels as generic rebranded Chinese batteries. They are actually manufactured by AtlasBX in South Korea, who are one of the worlds largest manufacturers, and I am quite happy with them. They also utilise a stamped and rolled fully framed grid design which appears identical in description to the Varta "powerframe" and in my experience have a similar high resting voltage. Playing devils advocate, I could also refer to Varta and Bosch as rebranded Johnson Controls batteries, since that is effectively what they are, the labels being little more than brand names acquired by the parent company.

 

That is not to denigrate the Vartas however, which are undoubtedly good batteries, but you can't fit a quart in a pint pot!

[ron.]

Deneb - Really sorry but for some inexplicable reason (it could be age related!) I missed your very detailed reply? I even forgot that I had already posted the question before, blimey.

 

My dealer proposed fitting one battery to each seat box but thinks it cannot be done due to height issues, but at 190mm it should be possible on our ordered van. Thanks again for the reply.

 

Ron

[Derek Uzzell]

If the Fiat-based motorhome you will be obtaining has the under-seat plastic tray that’s mentioned above, in addition to the lateral metal ‘rod’ at the front of the seat base (clearly visible in Deneb’s photo) there is another lateral metal rod further back to which the rear of the tray attaches. The rear rod may not be an impediment if a LFD90 is fitted crossways (as the battery would probably fit between the front and rear rods) but the rear rod would obstruct if the battery were fitted lengthways.

 

I recall that you were asking about Chausson motorhomes in January. This 2015/2016 thread

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Battery-size-type/40301/

 

discussed a leisure-battery installed under a new Chausson’s cab-seat. On Page 2 of the thread Robinhood confirmed that the pair of Varta LA95 batteries fitted beneath his Ducato X290’s diriver’s seat had the same dimensions as a Varta LFD90. Although putting two Varta LA95s was practicable in Robinhood’s case, the thread’s final posting on Page 3 indicates that this may sometimes present difficulties and an approach with a single battery in each seat-base may be required.

 

Where in the motorhome you’ve ordered is the leisure-battery fitted as standard?

 

[Deneb]

No problem Ron. I know the feeling. It seems to creep up on us all :-(

 

There should be no height issues with the Vartas. In case it's not clear from the photo I attached, sufficient clearance for my batteries was obtained by cutting away and removing the flooring under the seat, so the batteries rest directly on the metal floorpan, although I have fitted two Battery Mats beneath them as a precaution:

 

https://www.frost.co.uk/acid-absorbing-battery-mat.html

 

I only added the mats when I rewired the batteries to include the shunt for the battery monitor though. The batteries were installed in that location by the van converter.

 

The cab floor covering is a fairly thick plastic mat bonded to an even thicker layer of compressed foam, with channels moulded into it to fit over the various wiring looms that run across the metal floor. You can gain an extra inch in height by removing it below the seats. There is no underfloor wiring beneath the driver's seat. The closest is the large loom running across the floor in front of the seat directly ahead of the front seat frame legs.

[aandncaravan]

Deneb - 2018-02-25 11:26 AM

 

Incidentally, I know that Allan has previously referred to these Hankook batteries and their identical cousins with Numax and other labels as generic rebranded Chinese batteries. They are actually manufactured by AtlasBX in South Korea, who are one of the worlds largest manufacturers, and I am quite happy with them. They also utilise a stamped and rolled fully framed grid design which appears identical in description to the Varta "powerframe" and in my experience have a similar high resting voltage. Playing devils advocate, I could also refer to Varta and Bosch as rebranded Johnson Controls batteries, since that is effectively what they are, the labels being little more than brand names acquired by the parent company.

 

 

 

I have never referred to these batteries as Chinese, but Asian. The company you refer to was formerly known as 'Korea Storage Battery LTD', making batteries for almost anyone who asks from the most basic spec batteries to the new MF Carbon range. Many of the 'UK' ranges came from here, but I understand Leoch of China is looking to change that?

 

Johnson Controls is the Worlds biggest supplier of Lead Acid batteries and, crucially for us, has the biggest development spend on Leisure battery technology than any company.

Most other companies now focus R&D on Car Starter batteries. Although Exide has allegedly increased it's spend after losing massive Leisure market share over the last few years.

 

The Varta and Bosch Powerframe Grids are Rolled, not 'Stamped and Rolled'. I thought Hankook battery Grids were Stamped/Pressed like most conventional batteries?

The Grid Rolling process, which changes the molecular structure of the special Silver Alloy so it no longer corrodes, is protected by Patent.

It is unique to Johnson Controls and used only in Varta and Bosch batteries. No one else can use the technology without breach of Patent.

..

 

Bosch are not part of the Johnson Controls group. Bosch have a very high reputation for quality, if they can't compete on a particular item from a technology viewpoint, they ask the best in the market to make products for them with a Bosch label.

 

This allows them to supply 'best in the market' items without the huge costs associated with this.

As an example American Northstar make some of the other 'best in the World' batteries in the Bosch range.

 

The Bosch automotive group, biggest in the World, is actually 'owned' by a charitable foundation, Robert Bosch Stiftung GmbH, not Johnson Controls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

For the record the Hankook DC27 is a Calcium technology battery, the Technology favoured by most battery manufacturers worldwide for low fluid loss Starter Batteries.

The technology isn't generally considered suitable for Deep Cycling, usually resulting in rapid loss of capacity and short life.

Their life might not be so short if you only shallow cycle them to no more than about 25% DOD each discharge?

The DC27 will also be much slower to charger up.

 

We would suggest they are far from the 'best buy' Habitation battery, even a Powerframe engine Starter battery being a better option all around.

 

Sorry to disagree but there is a huge difference between the capabilities of the Hankook and the Varta LFD90.

 

 

If for some reason anyone doesn't like the Vartas, then a Banner Energy Bull would be a better Deep Cycler than the Hankook DC27 range by a big margin, but it does lose a lot of fluid and doesn't like continuous, long term charging.

The Banners Antimony technology makes it good at Deep Cycling to 50% with reasonable cycle life, but fluid loss and 'Self Discharge' is higher than the market leaders.

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

And - as Banner “Energy Bull” are not ‘maintenance free’ and their electrolyte-level definitely does need monitoring - installing them under a motorhome’s swivelling cab-seat would be very inadvisable.

[Deneb]

Allan,

 

Firstly let me apologise for attributing Chinese to your description of Hankook and other branded batteries manufactured by AtlasBX.

 

I am not arguing with you over the undoubted benefits of the Varta/Bosch LFD batteries, but just making the observation that in certain circumstances compromises have to be made. In this case, the fact that battery storage in many PVC motorhomes/campers may be limited compared to larger vans, and that you can't fit a quart into a pint pot, or two LFD90s under a Ducato driver's seat!

 

I added my own personal observation that I have found the Hankook DC27s to be quite serviceable batteries so far, including regular use off-grid for up to 3 days at a time, and whilst I generally try to keep them above 12.5 volts before a recharge, there have been a few occasions where they have run down to 12.2 volts and subsequently recovered without any noticeable deterioration. I have also noticed on a couple of occasions when I have disconnected the solar charger that they maintain a resting voltage of near 12.9 volts for several days. Currently, although connected to solar, with the panel having been covered in several inches of snow for 4 days, they are at 12.89 volts with all habitation electrics isolated at the master switch, hence my comment regarding a noticeably higher resting voltage than the vehicle battery.

 

As regards the Varta Powerframe and Atlas X-Frame construction, there are similarities in both manufacturers' descriptions and claims for the technology, although I am not in a position to verify any of them, but -

 

"Powerframe grids are made by rolling metal into strips that are then stamped into the grid shape. The rolling process elongates the grain structure, which helps resist corrosion and provides strength even under extreme conditions" (Varta)

 

"Fully framed round edged grid design, restrains grid growth and short circuits for superior quality and longer life span. Mechanically punched grid ensures high electrical conductivity and strong adhesion of active materials, more stable structure and less corrosion" (AtlasBX X-Frame)

 

Varta state that the metal is rolled into strips and stamped into shape. AtlasBX state that their grids are mechanically punched from metal sheet. Same process surely? AtlasBX make no mention of rolling, but if they are punching or stamping sheet metal then it follows that the metal has previously been rolled to create the sheet, and it is well known that the hot rolling process used to create sheet metal of uniform thickness alters the grain structure of the metal as a by-product of the rolling process. A little marketing hype by Varta?

 

You are correct that Robert Bosch are not part of the Johnson Controls group. However, it is my understanding that since 1991 all Bosch and Varta automotive batteries were being manufactured by VB Batterien GmbH, a joint venture between Bosch and Varta.

 

In 2002 Varta sold their entire automotive division including their share in VB Batterien to Johnson Controls, who became the major shareholder in the joint venture now between JCI and Bosch, with the right to produce batteries under the Varta and Bosch brand. By 2007, I believe Varta had ceased to exist as a company, having sold all of their assets to a variety of purchasers, although Varta AG has been recently resurrected via a market flotation as a wholly owned subsidiary of JCI.

 

Bosch and Varta are currently brand labels for ranges of automotive batteries manufactured by the Johnson Controls/Bosch joint venture in which Bosch have a minority 20 per cent holding of the company.

 

Hankook batteries are manufactured by AtlasBX, who are a wholly owned subsidiary of Hankook Corporation and current OEM supplier to General Motors.

 

I also understand that Robert Bosch outside of their partnership with JCI were involved in another joint venture developing propulsion batteries for electric vehicles, but have taken the decision to dissolve that undertaking within the last week, stating that they will buy in batteries from Asian suppliers instead.

 

[aandncaravan]

I didn't know the history of Bosch, only that they were now owned by the Charitable Institution I mentioned, so thank you for that info.

 

While we talk about the LFD90, because it is the most common Motorhome size, we also rate the smaller LFD75, etc.

 

While Hankook have some good batteries, which we acknowledged in a recent thread on this forum, the DC27 isn't a high performing battery.

I did say,

"I thought Hankook battery Grids were Stamped/Pressed like most conventional batteries?"

Isn't "punched" just another name for stamping?

 

 

The Atlas BX tech document lists the DC27 as having only basic technology operational characteristics, see attached graph taken from the PDF.

 

The DC27 is shown as having around 230 cycles at 30% DOD but only about 60 cycles at 50% DOD, exactly supporting what I said, that it's construction supports that of a shallow discharge Starter style battery rather than a Deep Cycle Leisure battery.

We have cut open several versions of the Numax battery in the past so know what is inside.

 

If it does have some special technology, it doesn't work very well as 50 cycles at 50% discharge is very poor for a battery described as a 'Deep Cycle' battery.

 

Like most of this type, they CAN be Deep Cycled right down to 70%, but the owner will regret it if they do.

Probably get less than 20 cycles at this kind of use according to the Atlas graph? Each subsequent cycle being way less than the rated capacity, which is unlikely to be noticed at first.

 

 

 

Incidentally, you will see that the Hans Anderson NCC Verified battery scheme, lists the Numax version of this battery as having 220 cycles at 50% DOD, Clearly at odds with Atlas's own figures and further evidence that the NCC verified scheme is failing to help Motorhome owners buy the best battery for their needs.

According to the NCC scheme the poorer quality Atlas/Numax out performs the Bosch L5013

 

 

[Deneb]

aandncaravan - 2018-03-03 8:06 PM

 

I didn't know the history of Bosch, only that they were now owned by the Charitable Institution I mentioned, so thank you for that info.

 

While we talk about the LFD90, because it is the most common Motorhome size, we also rate the smaller LFD75, etc.

 

While Hankook have some good batteries, which we acknowledged in a recent thread on this forum, the DC27 isn't a high performing battery.

I did say,

"I thought Hankook battery Grids were Stamped/Pressed like most conventional batteries?"

Isn't "punched" just another name for stamping?

 

It is, and we seem to be a cross purposes here!

 

You say that you thought Hankook battery grids were stamped/pressed like most conventional batteries, whereas Johnson Controls on their Powerframe Technology website claim one unique strength of the Powerframe grid is that it IS stamped from a single sheet of precisely rolled metal UNLIKE (they say) conventional battery grids which are cast or "bookmolded" from molten metal, or expanded - punched from metal sheet and stretched.

 

JCI are therefore saying that conventional battery grids are made by casting liquid metal into moulds, or by punching/stamping metal sheet and stretching the resulting lattice into the required shape, whereas the Powerframe grid is also punched/stamped from metal sheet, but to its finished shape, not needing to be further stretched or reworked.

 

This unique construction as described for the Powerframe grid therefore seems to be identical to the method used by AtlasBX for their X-frame, which they describe as being punched from a metal sheet, with similar claims for corrosion resistance, strength and conductivity etc.

 

JCI also claim that the "precision metal sheet" from which the grid is cut has been rolled in a process that "elongates the grain structure". This is what I refer to as marketing hype, since it is apparently a normal and unavoidable by-product of the hot rolling process extensively used to create sheet metal of a uniform and precise thickness!. It must therefore stand to reason that the metal sheet from which the X-frame has been punched is also similar in that regard.

 

I have no idea about patent laws and how they work, but if you look up JCIs patent US8586248B2 it is linked by citation, family, legal events, similar documents, priority and related applications to more than 200 other documents, many having no connection to JCI and several issued in Korea and China. Possibly AtlasBX are doing something very similar to JCI in production of their grid frames, either because they have a slightly different approach or they have some form of agreement with the patent holder, e.g. by licensing?

 

All I am saying is that the two companied descriptions of their respective "advanced" metal grid technologies are substantialy similar in their public facing marketing blurb.

 

I'm not saying that this makes Hankook or similar batteries as good as or better than Varta/Bosch, but by using similar grid technology and claiming similar benefits it suggests that their X-Frame batteries ought similarly to have improved over "traditional" battery construction, albeit other factors in their construction and design will affect overall performance comparisons as you say.

 

Whilst the Bosch Group is approximately 90 per cent owned by a charitable foundation, it nevertheless comprises over 400 sub companies run on commercial lines intended to make profits in the same way as any other commercial enterprise, albeit that some of those profits may be used for charitable causes.

 

Don't fall for the marketing hype of superior German engineering though. Much of this in my opinion stems from a period 40 or so years ago when our domestic industrial strife meant that it would be extremely difficult for any foreign company to make something less reliable than our own products, and kept alive by clever marketing.

 

Powerframe is for example a US patent obtained by Johnson Controls Inc. It has on the face of it nothing to do with Bosch other than that the design and technology is being used by JCI in batteries that they produce under the Varta and Bosch brands in a factory that they operate with a 20 per cent interest from the Bosch group.

 

Bosch white goods as another example, although produced by a company in which Bosch also have an interest, are nowdays manufactured in plants operated by various companies in Spain, Greece, Eastern Europe and China, with hardly a single appliance ever having set foot in Germany. The Bosch brand is actually set toward the lower end of their production range, although I expect they continue to rub their hands with glee in the fact that they can pitch the machine at a more upmarket price in the UK than they intend in other markets.

 

All of this is rather off topic to the original post though, so I suspect best to leave it there :-D

[ron.]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-03-03 9:20 AM

 

If the Fiat-based motorhome you will be obtaining has the under-seat plastic tray that’s mentioned above, in addition to the lateral metal ‘rod’ at the front of the seat base (clearly visible in Deneb’s photo) there is another lateral metal rod further back to which the rear of the tray attaches. The rear rod may not be an impediment if a LFD90 is fitted crossways (as the battery would probably fit between the front and rear rods) but the rear rod would obstruct if the battery were fitted lengthways.

 

I recall that you were asking about Chausson motorhomes in January. This 2015/2016 thread

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Battery-size-type/40301/

 

discussed a leisure-battery installed under a new Chausson’s cab-seat. On Page 2 of the thread Robinhood confirmed that the pair of Varta LA95 batteries fitted beneath his Ducato X290’s diriver’s seat had the same dimensions as a Varta LFD90. Although putting two Varta LA95s was practicable in Robinhood’s case, the thread’s final posting on Page 3 indicates that this may sometimes present difficulties and an approach with a single battery in each seat-base may be required.

 

Where in the motorhome you’ve ordered is the leisure-battery fitted as standard?

 

Derek - The standard single habitation battery is installed under the Fiat passenger seat.

 

Ron

[Derek Uzzell]

As the leisure-battery fitted as standard under the cab passenger-seat of (presumably) a Fiat-based Chausson motorhome should have dimensions no smaller than those of a Varta LFD90, why should there be doubt about another LFD90 battery going under the driver’s-seat?

 

As I said above, if there’s a ’tray’ under the driver’s-seat, something might need doing to gain the necessary floor area and (obviously) if the motorhome manufacturer had installed electrical equipment there, it might be impracticable to fit a battery as well. But otherwise the space under the driver’s-seat should be the same as under the passenger-seat where the leisure-battery is installed as standard.

 

Is the dealer giving you a choice of leisure-battery? I recall it being said that Chausson delivered new motorhomes to dealers without a leisure-battery and the dealer then liaised with the buyer as to what battery should be installed. In one instance this resulted in a UK dealer fitting to a new Chausson a grubby unbranded battery that looked decidedly secondhand.

[ron.]

Derek - I didn't say that the Chausson was fitted with Varta LFD90 batteries - I only asked if they would fit.

 

In fact the dealer fits a, budget type, battery with a height of 175mm and claims that this is the maximum height that the underseat location can take. I don't much fancy running a van with diesel fired heating fitted with budget batteries, hence my reason for double checking if anyone had managed to fit the Varta at 190mm high, obviously they have.

 

Ron

[Derek Uzzell]

If you’d initially mentioned that a Chausson motorhome was involved, the Varta LFD90 ‘height issue’ could have been more swiftly dealt with as it’s come up before with Chaussons (as has Chausson dealers fitting ‘cheap’ leisure- batteries).

 

Fiat makes no allowance for fitting batteries beneath cab seats and motorhome converters generally don’t do this. Chausson will have fitted a clamping arrangement to restrain the battery under the passenger seat (Pages 20 & 21 here)

 

https://www.chausson-camping-cars.fr/wp-content/uploads/MANUEL-Chausson-2015-Anglais.pdf

 

but will not have done the same under the driver’s seat. It’s stating the obvious, but if a 2nd leisure-battery were to go under the driver’s seat, it would need to be restrained and cabling from the driver’s seat-box to the passenger seat-box would need to be installed to connect together the two separate batteries.

 

Shoehorning two batteries into one seat-box (as was done with Deneb’s Vantage motorhome) would avoid seat-box-to-seat-box cabling and, if two Varta LFD90s won’t fit into one seat-box, two LFD75s might.

[aandncaravan]

Deneb, Notice you haven't contradicted our assertion that the Hankook/Numax DC27, regardless of claims of high technology content, performs poorly according to the manufacturers graph. Just 60 cycles for 50% DOD?

However, at least the DC range is twice as good as the lower spec XV range, which also has claims of "X Frame positive plate technology", and that is an even shallower discharge Calcium Starter battery.

The manufacturer even states the XV range is optimised primarily as a Starter battery, probably giving half the number of cycles of the DC27's 60 cycles, maybe 30 cycles at 50%?

 

However, we are used to being contradicted as even Battery Megastore claim for the Numax/Hankook XV range that it is a " dual purpose battery which will deliver powerful cranking amperage for easy starting and deep cycling....."

 

The manufacturer documentation shows it unable to even shallow cycle very well, let alone deep cycle. So I would suggest that regardless of your claims of simalarity between the two Grids, something is missing on the Atlasbx built units?

 

Suggest you read our Battery Technology pages - http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

which we have updated in your honour.

 

 

[Robinhood]

ron. - 2018-03-04 8:49 PM

 

In fact the dealer fits a, budget type, battery with a height of 175mm and claims that this is the maximum height that the underseat location can take. I don't much fancy running a van with diesel fired heating fitted with budget batteries, hence my reason for double checking if anyone had managed to fit the Varta at 190mm high, obviously they have.

 

Ron

 

Since I've been quoted above, and pictures are worth a thousand words, I'll post a couple, and confirm that I have two Varta LA95s fitted transversely under the driver's seat of my X/290.

 

I can also confirm that (by specification and confirmed by measurement) these are 190mm high, and they have the same specified overall dimensions as the LFD90.

 

It *is* a tight fit - the seat swivel needs to be removed to shoehorn them in, but it is viable (at least on mine) though you can see there is little spare space.

 

As far as I can tell, the flooring under the seat hasn't been removed to accommodate them (and I'm not going to remove the seat swivel to get a clear view of the fact there are two in there - that should be obvious from the front and rear clearance (or dearth thereof) ;-)

[Deneb]

aandncaravan - 2018-03-05 1:29 PM

 

Deneb, Notice you haven't contradicted our assertion that the Hankook/Numax DC27, regardless of claims of high technology content, performs poorly according to the manufacturers graph. Just 60 cycles for 50% DOD?

 

Allan, I have never claimed any facts or figures regarding the performance of the Hankooks. All I said was that "I am quite happy with them". That doesn't mean that they would be my battery of choice, or that I would replace them like for like, only that I have been pleasantly surprised by the service that they have given me so far, which has been better than my expectations as a user of automotive and leisure batteries for several decades. Time will tell how they continue to perform, but I am not about to replace them on the basis of a chart whilst they are still working well (for me). When the time comes to do so, I may well choose a couple of Varta LFDs.

 

You do realise that now you have made me type that, sods law dictates that they will probably die tomorrow (lol)

 

The manufacturer documentation shows it unable to even shallow cycle very well, let alone deep cycle. So I would suggest that regardless of your claims of simalarity between the two Grids, something is missing on the Atlasbx built units?

 

Again, I did say "it suggests that their X-Frame batteries ought similarly to have improved over "traditional" battery construction, albeit other factors in their construction and design will affect overall performance comparisons as you say".

 

So the inference must be that there are other differences between the batteries unconnected to their method of grid construction.

 

Suggest you read our Battery Technology pages - http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

which we have updated in your honour.

 

I have. You shouldn't have gone to all that trouble just for me ;-)

 

There is one error that you ought to have noted from my posts above, which you might wish to correct.

 

You say that "The special Silver Alloy Grid is manufactured using a 'Rolling' process, not Stamped or Pressed..."

 

Which is incorrect.

 

JCI say on their Powerframe website that:

 

"PowerFrame grid technology is formed from a single sheet of precisely rolled and stamped metal, resulting in an exact pattern every time. This process is known as “stamping”."

 

On their main company website, in describing the Powerframe, they say:

 

"PowerFrame grids are made by rolling metal into strips that are then stamped into the grid shape."

 

And in their patent, they also say "A plurality of positive grids are formed by stamping the plurality of grids from a rolled wrought strip of grid material (which) is then cut into plates. The grid or grids described herein are stamped grids".

 

They also show a picture of the metal roll after the grids have been stamped through it, attached below.

 

The grids are stamped, which is incidentally one of the main benefits claimed in their patent, in that it eliminates "expanded metal and/or cast grids from the manufacturing process thereby improving manufacturing processes and reducing material and/or manufacturing costs".

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The method used to produce “Powerframe” grids is explained here:

 

[aandncaravan]

Deneb you quoted,

"Incidentally, I know that Allan has previously referred to these Hankook batteries and their identical cousins with Numax and other labels as generic rebranded Chinese batteries. They are actually manufactured by AtlasBX in South Korea, who are one of the worlds largest manufacturers, and I am quite happy with them. They also utilise a stamped and rolled fully framed grid design which appears identical in description to the Varta "powerframe" and in my experience have a similar high resting voltage. Playing devils advocate, I could also refer to Varta and Bosch as rebranded Johnson Controls batteries, since that is effectively what they are, the labels being little more than brand names acquired by the parent company"

 

You wrote that the Hankook DC27 range -

" also utilise a stamped and rolled fully framed grid design which appears identical in description to the Varta "powerframe"

Anyone reading your post might have got the impression the Hankook/Numax DC27 was a good battery.

 

You also tried to contradict our claim that they are generic Asian batteries, you incorrectly used the term 'Chinese' and then went on to point out their origins as Korean.

 

 

I pointed out they are Asian generic batteries and that Powerframe was Patented so couldn't be copied and tried to show that the DC27 didn't live up to the marketing or your apparent impression.

 

 

Ok, so my translation isn't totally accurate, but regardless of my explanation of how Powerframe works, work it does.

Yet the Hankook DC 27, with what you say "appears identical in description to the Varta "powerframe" technology", doesn't appear to work very well at all. The special grid not appearing to make much difference.

 

The DC27 has a shorter guarantee, yet costs pretty much the same for a little more than a quarter of the cycle life of the Varta LFD90.

So regardless of what you were or were not saying, plus all the smoke and mirrors, I wanted to make it clear, that in spite of the Hankook 'marketing', it isn't a half of the battery that the Varta Powerframe is. Literally.

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Returning to the original query...

 

On a French motorhome forum there is a battery-related question from a Fiat Ducato-based Globecar owner. He asked “My motorhome has two leisure-batteries beneath its cab passenger seat - how do I get them out?” Another Globecar owner provided advice that included the attached photo.

 

The Globecar motorhome is LHD (so the cab passenger seat is on the right) and the photo is taken from the rear of the seat looking towards the vehicle’s front. It looks like the clamping system was designed for a pair of batteries to be installed, but that won’t be the case with a Fiat-based Chausson that (if the 2015 User’s Manual is to be believed) carries its leisure-battery transversely towards the middle of the cab passenger seat-box, with a protectice cover and a U-shaped clamping plate that crosses the battery’s top.

[ron.]

Thanks for all the information folks. Despite the various arguments its just what I wanted.

 

Ron

[StuartO]

Deneb - 2018-03-06 8:48 AM ... I am quite happy with them ...

 

Forums often attract positive comments from people who have spent their money and like to feel they have done so wisely, so they continue to endorse the product or service, even when they are faced with credible evidence that its quality might well be inferior; I think it's a human nature thing.