JayBe Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Hello This is my first post. I have one of the first Rapido 640 models off the production line in 2014. It was then a brand new model. Twenty four faults from new, but little acknowledgement or interest from Rapido. Some faults eventually corrected by me (to avoid delay and cost), and others had to be sorted by Wokingham Motorhomes. That I thought was the end of my problems. BUT, whilst away in September and October this year in Albania and Greece, mainly wilderness camping, we kept the water tank filled, whenever possible, usually from safe sources in the mountains. There are no warnings or advice in the Rapido Manual against travelling with a full water tank. After many miles of poor road surfaces, a few bad potholes and numerous hairpin bends we arrived in southern Greece only to discover water seeping from under the kitchen cupboards. Mopping with towels did not stop the flow and I could find no leak under the kitchen sink. The water tank is 'buried' under the bed and contained within the bed base panels, with only a small gap on one side. Using a torch and mirror I could see a steady trickle of water down one of the support legs, so immediately drained the tank. For 5 weeks we had to manage with two 10 litre water containers and an occasional visit to a campsite. A Google search brought up comments on this website and on motorhomefacts website. RAPIDO appear to have totally ignored the issue which arose in water tanks on previous Rapido models. The Rapido water tank only rests on a small strip of the tank base on the rear right side, and on two support legs inserted into the tank base mouldings on the left side of the base. The tank is not secured in any form to stop movement and up to 100 kilogram is therefore stressing the legs constantly. I am surprised that we had covered over 39,000 miles before the tank fractured. Rapido 'designers' have not considered the possible need for access to the water tank in case of maintenance as the bed base has been complicatedly constructed around and one panel crosses the tank. The tank itself is a faulty design previously used on other earlier models, then used on a NEW 2014 model. I am considering removing the tank myself to have it repaired. The panel which crosses the tank will have to be cut in order to lift the tank clear, and the panel later secured back using brackets or battens. It is the only possible way and I am capable and have made a schedule for the stages of removal. A new tank and labour by an authorised dealer will probably be well over £1,000. On 1st November I emailed Wokingham Motorhomes from whom I purchased the vehicle, and requested that a copy be sent to Anthony Pfaff at Rapido. I chased W. M/H on 14th but no reply had been received from Rapido. Not good service, do they care? I intend to replace the tank onto suitable battens or dense foam blocks although with all the hoses and cables there is limited space under the tank, and then pad around the sides of the tank with foam block to restrict movement. Derek U I know that you will be interested as you have a similar model Rapido. W T Kevin If I can get the tank out would you be able and willing to repair it? I'm in Devon so maybe not that far from you. Thank you for all the previous helpful comments and advice given in previous threads for similar problems. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Hi John, I'm WildThingsKev on MH Facts, & for the benefit of others I posted photos of my repair here: https://forums.motorhomefacts.com/63-rapido-motorhomes/112238-water-tank-leak-7090-a-4.html My van would also have been at about 40,000 miles when the tank began leaking. I really can't believe that rapido are still using two bits of drainpipe as legs to support the tank and I'm sure my manual makes no mention of only driving with it virtually empty. There were certainly UK failures before 2014 and there must have been dozens of failures on French vans. I'm in Redruth John, it would only take an hour to repair but I'm just going away until 8th December. If you can get the tank out and post a photo of the leaking boss with it illuminated from the inside the point where the crack is will be visible like in the photo below. I've sent you a pm with my phone number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 ps here are a few other photos as you have to be a MHF member to view them now, which I'm not anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 JayBe - 2018-11-18 9:24 PM ...Derek U I know that you will be interested as you have a similar model Rapido... John We had planned a trip to France lasting from 21 to 30 October - on 25 October we arrived back home in the UK. The reasons for our early return were twofold. During our first day of driving I brushed a roadworks tall ‘bollard’ with the right-hand cab door mirror. This toppled the bollard enough for its base to rock upwards and strike the front corner of the Rapido’s Thule entrance-step’s cassette, badly buckling the plate through which the step moves and preventing it from extending. This was a nuisance, but livable with. (I’ve repaired the step that now works more quietly than before and, while doing so, I found that the screws holding one of the operating arm’s pivots had not been properly tightened.) That evening the Rapido’s water-system’s pipework suddenly began to vibrate violently whenever a tap was opened or the toilet flushed. My best guess was that the culprit was the SHURflo pump, but as the vibration was too bad to be tolerable we decided to cut short the trip, return to Ouistreham and stay at the campsite there where we could use the sanitary facilities. On the way back to the port we called into a Rapido dealership and the diagnosis was that “it could be the water pump, or it could be something else”. Once home I obtained a new pump and striipped down the original. I couldn’t find anything wrong with the latter and, when I had fitted the new pump, the vibration problem was still there. I then jury-rigged a length of hose to the pump’s inlet and led the hose into a bucketful of water and, when the pump was switched on, there was no vibration. This indicated that the problem was somewhere between the pump’s inlet and the water pick-up in the fresh-water tank. My Rapido’s fresh-water tank is similar to the one shown in kevina’s 2nd photo above, but - as John has said - the tank is tightly boxed in. It’s an odd system, with the filler hose connecting to the tank near the upper right BOTTOM corner (in the photo) so that the tank fills from the bottom up rather than from the more normal top down. Also peculiar is that the pump picks up water from an elbow-fitting towards the front of the tank that also drains via that same fitting. The elbow goes through the tank’s wall in the ‘cutaway’ at the tank’s lower left front edge (to the right of the air-trunking in kevina’s photo). The water pipework is a mixture of the blue flexible braided hose shown in the photo and a hard black semi-rigid hose, and most of the connectors are Reich “Uniquick” push-fit type. Although the general cause of the fault had been pinned down and the elbow where the hose leading to the pump starts and the other end of the hose where it connects to the pump were both accessible, what happened between those points could not be established because all the critical pipework was hidden under the tank. I managed to take some photos through the narrow gap between the tank’s underside and the floor, but these did not help other than to show that there were several coils of the black hose lurking there and that the hoses were very likely cable-tied to the gas-pipework (visible in kevina’s photo). I thought there might be a non-return valve under the tank that might have failed (but I couldn’t confirm this without removing the tank) or that there was a partial blockage somewhere in the hoses that was inhibiting the water-flow to the pump. As John has highlighted, removing a 640F’s water-tank requires significant surgery to the panels forming the bed base and (in my 2015 model’s case) it would be necessary to remove electrical equipment too. I decided to sidestep the problem by capping off the end of the original water-hose that connected to the pump’s inlet and installing a dedicated feed that picks up water from inside the tank’s right bottom corner (in the photo) and delivers it to the pump by a flexilbe braided hose incorporating a non-return valve (though the valve’s probably not necessary). At least I understand what I’ve done, even though I still don’t know what caused the vibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBe Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 Thanks Kevin, I will be in touch. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBe Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 Derek Thank you for that input. Sorry you had to cut short your trip, less of the coffee and croissants! I think you will find that the semi-rigid black pipes are the feed to the hot water tank.I managed to get my hand and scissors under the tank behind the drainage tap and cut the cable tie which was also round the gas pipe. Why, oh why? Rapido certainly seem to make things complicated and I will have to be careful when removing the tank. As you state, the front bed base panel will have to be removed forward to clear the electrical boxes as all the cables and wiring looms are 'short' so that it is impossible to just remove the electrical boxes from the panel. Another half metre of cabling would have been a sensible and practical 'design' solution. Good luck with the water pump mod.. I have noted that just in case! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 JayBe - 2018-11-19 3:56 PM ...I think you will find that the semi-rigid black pipes are the feed to the hot water tank...! There’s no doubt that the connection to my 640F’s Combi heater’s water-tank is via a black 12mm outside-diameter semi-rigid plastic hose, but the majority of my 2015 model’s water system uses that type of hose rather than the blue type shown in Kevina’s 2nd and 3rd photos above. The 640 was released for the 2014 model-year and became available on the Continent in mid-2013. It was built on a Fiat Ducato X250 camping-car chassis and reviewed in the August 2013 issue of “Which Motorhome” magazine. https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/reviews/motorhomes/details/rapido-640-motorhome-review/899773 The 640 design was moved to the Ducato X290 platform for the 2015 model-year and visible changes to the conversion included Dometic windows instead of Polyplastic, deletion of the interior step up to the front lounge and a revised treatment for the overcab storage area. Further conversion changes were introduced for the 2016 model-year, after which the 640 was dropped from Rapido’s line-up. I’ve enlarged the aperture that provides access to the fresh-water tank’s drain tap and - although I could have fairly easily cut the cable-tie that attached to a gas-pipe the blue hose leading from the water tank’s pick-up point - I couldn’t see that doing this would benefit me. When I said above that "there were several coils of the black hose lurking” beneath the tank, I really meant that - it’s like the Rapido fitter had come to within two of three metres of the end of a roll of hose and just couldn’t be bothered to shorten it to a sensible length. Personally, I’d be looking at replacing the Rapido tank with a simpler one as I doubt that it’s the weight of water and/or movement that are the primary reasons for these tanks spilitting - it’s mainly the peculiar design of tank and how they are mounted. For example, this company markets ranges of tanks from 10-litres capacity upwards at reasonable prices https://www.tanks-direct.co.uk/water-tanks/water-storage-tanks/50-75-litre-water-tanks.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Derek i wish you much strength to solve the problem about the clean water tank. Have a look also on the waste water tank when busy. Bad to miss the trip for you and company because of a water tank supporting by hollow PVC pipes. You buy a box of chocolates but you never now which you gonna get. Even me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 There’s nothing wrong (at the moment !!!) with my Rapido’s fresh-water tank - the problem was wth the water-feed from the tank’s outlet to the water-pump’s inlet. The cause of the vibration episode with my Rapido’s water pipework may be something very simple, like a piece of loose debris in the hoses leading from the tank to the pump that momentarily stops the flow of water and then allows it to flow again. Or it might be due to a faulty non-retutn valve if there actually is one in the system. If I removed the water tank it probably would be straightforward to detect where the problem lies and cure it without much difficulty. But (as John said about his own motorhome’s leaking tank) removing a Rapido 640F’s tank is far from easy and I’m certainly not going to do it to investigate the fault as I’ve been able to address the problem successfully by thinking laterally and installing a new feed from the tank to the pump. Not sure how I would benefit from lokoing at the waste-water tank. It’s just the usual underfoor black plastic crossways type, with rigid plastic pipework running to it from the kitchen sink, washbasin and shower tray, and with a big drain tap at one end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Agree whit your thinking Derek. Since my new RV is part of the rapido family i will try to search for you a picture of the production stage where you can see it all. And if they exist a PID diagram. I have some of others and try to upload them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 There is a short video-clip relating to Rapido’s Mayenne factory (I’ve visited the factory myself) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1R_X604H9Q but I’d like to know the ‘logic’ of my 640F model’s water pipework and (more importantly) exactly what’s underneath my motorhome’s tank. A video won’t provide that level of detail and, even if it were possible to obtain a diagram showing how the pipework should run, there’s no guarantee that the Rapido fitter that installed the water system on my motorhome did it properly. For example, what’s the rationale for having so much (apparently superfluous) black hose coiled up under the tank? Having said that, however my motorhome’s system was originally installed, it functioned OK for over 3 years and, when the vibration problem occurred, it did so suddenly with no preliminary warning symptoms. When John removes the water tank from his Rapido so that leak can be fixed, perhaps he could take photos of what is under his 640F’s tank and post the photos here. I’m not sure whether this would help me to retrospectively diagnose what caused the vibration problem as there’s no certainty that the under-tank arrangement of pipework on John’s 2014 640F will be the same as that of my 2015 version, but it would still be of interest to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Derek, there must be such as a AS- Built drawing in 3d about this relating to the final stage. showing all parts by number and origin. My former burstner had it. Open the rapido computer. And claim in the first place your selling dealer, or any other rapido contract dealer, or direct rapido at their help desk. Tanks and hot/cold water piping is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Burstner is a German motorhome manufacturer; Rapido is a French motorhome manufacturer. Although you may have successfully obtained from Burstner the type of build-related data you have mentioned, I wish you well if you ever feel a need to get similar information from Rapido. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Derek, I spoke to a dealer in Luxembourg well famous about Mods for dog agility in our club. He said that that hot-cold flex tubing including tanks is not in a isometric diagram as it is. The same for gas. it is factory internal. What you see is what you get. There is not a standard in this. Yes it is ad-hock tubing. Try to fix it he said yourselves. Problem can be parts. but that is defined on records. He said also if you are in trouble visit us at motor homes center sarl 31 rue de march 7470 Saeul luxemburg Tel: 352266191 Have a look at their website. And enjoy Lux whit your company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBe Posted November 26, 2018 Author Share Posted November 26, 2018 To update as I have now managed to extricate the tank. First remove the Truma heater flue from the heater and the wall, and remove the blown air aperture fitting from the bedside panel. Detach the water hose from the inlet flange. Detach all electrical cables and hoses from the pump. Pull the blue tank overflow hose up through the hole in the m/h floor. Detach the blue hose from the drainage tap (accessible from the garage). The only way to remove the bed base unit was to cut the cross panel over the tank on both sides using a fine tooth hand saw, and then removing it. ( Screw on battens when refitting the panel). The three electrical boxes then have to be removed from their mounts and left temporarily on top of the tank. There are only three points where the bed base frame joints are butted and screwed ( all other panel joints appear to be semi tongued and grooved and glued). Once those screws have been removed all floor attachment screws (torque headed) can be removed, bearing in mind that the most awkward one is 'hidden' under the main electrical cables. The bed base unit can then be lifted clear and has to be stored on the table due to its size. Move the electrical boxes forward onto the floor. The water tank can then be lifted clear and has to be removed through a cab door as it is too wide for the habitation doorway. It then becomes clear that the black semi-rigid hose attached to the drainage tap is the one leading to the filter and inlet side of the pump. On my 640 it was apparent that the only hose coiled under the tank is the blue hose from the bottom of the tank to where I detached it from the drainage tap, as the two points are too close to make a straight connection. There are no other hoses under the tank, but coils of several metres of cable. I have photographed the tank, the 'legs' in situ and after removal from the tank base, and also the insert in the base of the tank. All are identical to Kevina's 'photos; sharp edges and swarf on the leg tubes, etc.. The fracture in the forward insert moulding in the tank is not visible even with a bright light, so I re-inserted the two leg tubes and placed the tank on a table and gradually filled the tank to over 100 litres. No leak until I put slight sideways motion on the tank with the water slopping. Immediately the fractured point began seeping water. Hope this is of assistance to others who may experience the problem. Tank now awaiting repair. Incidentally, the tanks appear to be an identical design to that used in the Rapido 7090F etc.. Have Rapido yet learnt a lesson? Still no comment from Rapido or Wokingham Motorhomes. I have searched fruitlessly online for suitable foam to support the tank in the future but cannot find a supplier of small amounts. Suggestions please. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBe Posted November 26, 2018 Author Share Posted November 26, 2018 Derek Regarding your problem of vibration in the water system. Referring to my last post, I wonder if the problem is caused by a partial blockage in the drainage tap, or is the tap not operating properly as I know from experience that they sometimes 'stick'. I never thought of cutting the access hole bigger, another gain from a forum site. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Try to use flex boxes of fit size around the tank., but the base should be well supported solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 JayBe - 2018-11-26 4:17 PM Derek Regarding your problem of vibration in the water system. Referring to my last post, I wonder if the problem is caused by a partial blockage in the drainage tap, or is the tap not operating properly as I know from experience that they sometimes 'stick'. I never thought of cutting the access hole bigger, another gain from a forum site. John As my Rapido’s water system was fully functional and fault-free for 48 hours or so before the vibration issue arose, I wouldn’t have thought the problem was due to a blockage in either of the drain-taps. I’ve never experienced drain-taps ‘sticking’; they’ve either been open allowing water to drain through, or closed with no water draining out. When the hoses were vibrating, the flow of water from all the water outlets was very low, but there was no sign of hissing/spurting, etc. that would have indicated air was getting into the system. As I said above, I thought it quite likely that there was a partial blockage somewhere in the hoses that was inhibiting the water-flow to the pump, but I had no real clue to where in the system that (hypothetical) blockage might be. Having emptied the fresh-water tank, when I blew down the water-hose leading to the water-pump’s inlet, air was clearly emerging from the water pick-up point inside the tank. I tried sucking on the water-pump’s inlet-hose, but all I ended up with was a mouthful of the residual water remaining in the system. I was tempted to detach the hose from the tank’s water pick-up fitting and blow high-pressure air through the hose, but I feared this might cause damage and (not understanding Rapido’s water pipework arrangement) wasn’t confident it would have done any good. I was also very wary that unless I could be 100% certain I knew what was causing the problem, even if I fiddled about with the system on a ‘I might get lucky’ basis and the problem disappeared, it might well reoccur. In the end, as my ‘bucketful of water’ test had indicated that installing a new dedicated water-feed to the pump should be a definite cure, that’s the route I eventually decided to take. You may be interested in these 2014 and 2015 forum threads about Rapido water-tank problems. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Rapido-fresh-water-tank/35722/ https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Plastic-tank-welding-anyone-/38051/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 About the clean water tank, you have a cross side wall filler connector. That connector cap avoids under pressure (vacuum), the same as your fuel filler cap. To protect the wails of it. And the inlet of their pumps. From the filler we move to smaller tubing flexible. The water pump is outside the tank. He runs fine when all air is out hot-cold. These are two different circuits and have a good look of them bypassing the hot water boiler. The non return sits in the pump, not the flex tubing. Do a trial and error test about the not normal circuit noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 Some motorhome fresh-water tanks are ‘vented’, others tanks are not and venting (needed to prevent a vacuum forming inside the tank as water is drawn off) is via the water filling point. My Rapido’s water filling-point is unvented and venting of the tank is via the ‘blue overflow hose’ that John refers to in his posting of 26 November 2018 4:08 PM. This hose emerges high up on the tank and then curves down to pass through the motorhome’s floor. If my Rapido’s water system is completely filled so that water pours out of the filling-point, the water in the tank will be above the outlet of the overflow hose. Water then siphons from the tank through the overflow hose until the water-level in the tank drops and an air passage opens between the overflow in the tank in the tank and the end of the overflow hose under the motorhome. When that happens there’s a hideous gurgling noise that, when I first filled up the Rapido’s tank, was very unnerving. And, of course, only diaphragm water-pumps will be outside the tank, with ’submersible’ pumps being located inside the tank. (I can’t do a trial and error test about the not normal circuit noise as I’ve altered the water pipework. Besides which, why should I want to provoke the vibration when a) I’ve stopped it happening and b) unless I removed the water tank I’d probably still not be able to pinpoint where whatever was causing the vibration is located?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBe Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 Just an update. On 19th November Wokingham Motorhomes last email advised me that they were seeing someone from Rapido later that week and would definitely discuss the water tank fracture. Two weeks later, and no contact from Wokingham Motorhomes or Rapido. Both have sadly let themselves down in my opinion. A totally different scenario to the way customers were dealt with in 2013. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 1, 2018 Share Posted December 1, 2018 I’ve had another look at the photos I took of what’s under my Rapido’s fresh-water tank and concluded that the black ‘coil’ that I assumed was water pipework must, in fact, be electrical cabling (photo attached). Not exactly sure what it’s there for as the Rapido 640F has just a single 230V socket that’s well away from the fresh-water tank and my motorhome has a gas-only Combi heater. It’s possible that the cable is there in case the Combi 6E gas/230V option is chosen. Still doesn’t help with what might have caused the water pipework vibration problem though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBe Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 As usual I had to chase Wokingham M/H but late on Fri 7/12, Adrian (prop.) 'phoned to say that Anthony at Rapido will supply a new tank F.O.C.. It will be mounted on foam lined wood plinths and not on the tubular legs. Ref: Coiled cables under the water tank. Presumably the cables are made up with connectors, etc. to be used on several different models. On my 640 under the water tank and down the cable route side of the tank there are two coils of thin cable, both about 9 metres in length of 'spare' cable. One is the cable from the fuse box (on the bed base) to the water level gauge on the tank. The other cable is also from the fuse box and the cable disappears between the two floor levels towards the toilet. Until all is back in place I cannot check the fuse box to determine the cable connection. I have uncoiled the cables for safety reasons. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 An excellent result despite the delay - I wonder what the the cost of a new tank is on Rapido’s price-list. It’s not easy to gauge the thickness of the coiled black cable beneath my Rapido’s water-tank, but the photo above shows the cable perched on top of a gas pipe, suggesting that it’s fairly thick. Like your 640, mine has several black cables (thick or thin) running from the CBE electrical ‘boxes’ grouped near the water tank (photos mid-way down this French webpage) https://www.escapades-nature-camping-car.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1497 so it’s probably one of those. I’m not going remove the tank to find out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Hi John Great news, obviously better than lugging it down here for a repair. Presumably you are going to fit the new tank yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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