Weight upgrade

[Sssnake]

Ladies and gents

 

My apologies, I promise I have used the search facility but still can’t find the definitive answer and I know that one of you will be able to help.

 

I have bought a new motorhome and the manufacturers plate and V5 identify the max permissible mass to be 3500kg but the Fiat VIN plate identifies it as 3650kg.

 

What is the maximum permissible weight then? 3500kg or 3650kg? If it is the former, can I get it increased without paying a company like SV Tech and do it myself?

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe the new motorhome you’ve bought is a Dethleffs 7057 EB (though I don’t know if it’s the ‘profile’ or the A-class version)

 

Either way, both of these designs are marketed as standard with a Maximum Technically Permissable Laden Mass (MTPLM) of 3500kg as shown here:

 

https://www.dethleffs.co.uk/motorhomes/trend/model/i-7057-eb/

 

It’s the Dethleff’s data-plate that ‘counts’ as far as the MPTLM is concerned and - as you’ve said that the Dethleff’s plate indicates a MTPLM of 3500kg - that’s the motorhome’s legal MTPLM.

 

Fiat markets the Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis with a MTPLM of 3650kg and the motorhome converter (Dethleffs in your case) has the choice of not changing that value, or altering it downwards (normally to 3500kg) or upwards. It’s quite common for a converter to offer a potential buyer the option to choose between the 3650kg or 3500kg MTPLM values - my Rapido could have been ordered at either MTPLM at no extra charge.

 

You should be able to DIY an ‘uprate’ of the MTPLM from 3500kg to 3650kg. The UK ‘road tax’ class would change and the DVLA would need to issue a revised V5C document.

 

A snag regarding the DIY approach relates to how the higher MTPLM figure could be legally identified on the vehicle. SVTech provides a replacement ‘plate’ as part of their service, but I don’t know what the DVLA’s attitude is to DIYers making up or obtaining a similar plate. This was discussed here

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Upgrading-MTPLM-then-downgrading/49889/

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Uprating-vehicle-weight-yourself/38746/31/

 

[Sssnake]

As usual sir, excellent advice for which I am very grateful.

[tonyishuk]

There is a little devil on my shoulder saying " This guy should write to the DVLA saying the dealer has incorrectly completed the registration forms"

 

OTH the little angel on the other side is saying "?????"

 

Rgds

[Derek Uzzell]

The Certificate of Conformity (CofC) that Dethleffs will have produced for the motorhome will almost certainly show that it has a 3500kg MPTLM and, of course, the vehicle itself carries a Dethleffs data-plate that indicates a MTPLM of 3500kg.

 

If either the Dethleffs CofC or the Dethleffs data-plate showed a 3650kg MTPLM figure, it might be argued that the motorhome had been incorrectly registered. But if the Dethleffs CofC and the Dethleffs data-plate both show a 3500kg MTPLM, suggesting that the dealership was incompetent would be inadvisable.

 

The DVLA aren’t thick and, if claiming that a dealer made a mistake at the registration stage was to be a convincing argument, you can bet your life that the DVLA would demand proof that this was so.

[tonyishuk]

Listen to the Angel !

 

Rgds

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

Possibly a daft question: But is the additional "payload" actually required?

(or is it just a case of wanting the higher figure because you've seen it on the Fiat plate?)

..and if it is needed, will the "upgrade" be fully usable anyway?

(as in, is there plenty of free scope on the axle that'll you'll want to be loading the extra on?).

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I think that - if you look at the specification of a Dethleffs 7057 EB model - you’ll see why uprating the 3500kg MTPLM figure to 3650kg could be attractive if it can be done at minimal cost.

[Sssnake]

Re my wish for extra payload, I went to a weigh bridge today and with a 24 kg propane bottle, 3/4 tank of fuel and half a tank full of water, the van weighed 3,080 leaving me of course a further 420kg. The extra 150kg upgrade would be very welcome (especially on the return trip with wine) and I can spread that through the van without overburdening either axle.

[Sssnake]

Absolutely and since I intend on keeping this van for many years, the saving on RFL will more than pay for the amendment.

[Derek Uzzell]

Before deciding on a DIY ‘no cost’ approach to uprating your motorhome from 3500kg to 3650kg, you might try contacting JR Consultancy

 

John Ruffles

JR Consultancy

truckcon@outlook.com

01359 250808 - N Wales

01244 544598 - Bury St Edmunds

 

as this firm has been used by quite a few motorcaravanners when vehicle-weight alteratins are wanted and the cost (£150 was quoted in late-2017) is likely to undercut SVTech’s price significantly.

 

Uprating your motorhomes MTPLM by 150kg should be just a ‘paper exercise’, but it might be worth exploring whether the maximum axle loadings could also be uprated and the MTPLM increased beyond 3650kg without any ‘technical’ alterations being needed.

 

Even if you end up not using the company, I suggest you start by seeking advice (It’s free!!) from SVTech to see how much weight increases you might obtain without physical alterations to your motorhome being needed.

 

http://www.svtech.co.uk/vehicles/motorhomes/

 

http://www.svtech.co.uk/our-services/uprating/

 

http://www.svtech.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/4x2-Conversion_form_Motorhome_2018.pdf

 

The DVLA provides some advice on vehicle weight changes here

 

https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate/what-evidence-to-give

 

and as you (presumably) have a weighbridge certificate for the motorhome, that may be enough to satisfy the DVLA’s ‘evidence’ requirements if you only want to uprate to 3650kg.

 

A dialogue with the DVLA can be a wearing process, but if you state absolutely clearly what information you need and what evidence you can provide (eg. copies of the motorhome’s Certificates of Conformity, photos of the motorhome’s data-plates, the weighbridge certificate) you should be able to obtain useful feedback. If you disagree with/dislike the DVLA’s response(s), persist...

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Just put two springs on the rear axle and you can drive 3850 instead of 3650, Being a fiat light Chassis, and ask the maker of the home for a declaration of no objection. This has nothing to to whit your COC. Your maker however should give a new nameplate which shoud be fixed above the original. Never remove your original plate. Fiat is only involved whit the maker final stage, not you.

[Billggski]

The Dethleffs DATA for the 7057EB indicates a "maximum payload" of 4250kg, and it comes with 225 16" tyres, so a higher weight would seem possible.

 

https://www.dethleffs.co.uk/motorhomes/trend/model/i-7057-eb/

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve previously asked about fitting alloy wheels to his new Dethleffs motorhome

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Aftermarket-alloy-wheels/49453/

 

saying that it had 16”-diameter steel wheels.

 

The 7057 EB model is marketed in two formats - A-class (I 7057 EB) or ‘profile’ (T 7057 EB) - but Steve has not said which one his vehicle is. That doesn’t really matter though, as both designs have the same standard Authorised Total Weight (ATW) of 3499kg. The I 7057 EB version has a Mass in Running Order (MIRO) of 3016kg and a (3499-3016) payload of 483kg, while the T 7057 EB version hs a Mass in Running Order (MIRO) of 2990kg and a (3499-2990) payload of 509kg.

 

Fuller details of the 2018 Dethleffs ranges are given here

 

https://www.dethleffs.co.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/dethleffs/uk/Downloads/Kataloge/2018/PL18_Moca_GB_screen.pdf

 

and indicate that Dethleffs offered two different weight-upgade options for 7057 EB models - an increase of the ATW from 3499kg to 3850kg for models built on the Ducato ‘light’ chassis, or opting for the motorhome to be built instead on a Ducato ‘heavy’ (Maxi) chassis with an ATW of 4250kg.

 

Steve’s 7057 EB motorhome is clearly built on a Ducato ‘light’ chassis as it has a Fiat VIN-plate showing 3650kg and a Dethleffs plate showing 3500kg (or perhaps 3499kg) - and it definitely won’t be a realistic proposition to ‘convert’ that chassis into its Maxi equivalent to obtain a 4250kg ATW figure.

 

From what Monique says, it should be practicable to uprate Steve’s Dethleff’s ATW from 3499kg to 3850kg by modifying the vehicle to match the specification of a 7057 EB that had the Dethleffs 3850kg option. The standard 225/75R 16C tyres will have adequate load capacity for the consequential higher axle loadings and, rather than replace the rear-axle springs, it might be permissible to fit air-bellows instead.

 

Steve's original enquiry was whether he could DIY a no-cost/minimal cost ATW upgrade from the Dethleffs 3500kg to the Fiat 3650kg, and that should be possible. Going higher than 3650kg is (as I said earlier) worth exploring, but it’s more likely that doing this would involve expenditure to gain the DVLA’s approval (ie. that SVTech or JR Consultancy would need to be involved) and, to raise the ATW to 3850kg, it’s probable that ‘mechanical’ changes would be required.

 

 

 

[gdf]

Don't forget that going to 3650 will require a C1 driving licence.

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

gdf we are not stupid. About licence. I wiil stop discussing this, but upgrading fiat light to 3850 kg is no proplem at all. Take max out of it.

[Derek Uzzell]

Monique

 

The potential driving-licence implications of uprating a motorhome’s Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) beyond 3500kg are always worth restating. Plainly the UK government believes it is worthwhile as there are official webpages advising on the subject

 

https://www.gov.uk/driving-motorhome

 

Even going from 3500kg to 3501kg would alter the vehicle’s UK road-tax class and affect its speed limits if driven outside the UK.

 

https://www.go-motorhoming.co.uk/content/european-driving-speed-limits-and-regulations-vehicle-weight-motorhomes-and-caravans

 

Although it may be technically straightforward for the MAM of Steve’s motorhome to be uprated from 3500kg to 3850kg, you’ve suggested that he would need to contact Dethleffs to obtain authorisation and (I would have thought) he’d also need to explore with Fiat whether they would authorise the modification so that the motorhome’s warranty remained unaffected.

 

It would also be useful if you can provide an estimate of the cost involved in having someone “just put two springs on the rear axle”, as Steve would really like to gain an increase in MAM for little or no expenditure.

[Billggski]

......but on page 2 of the data on the link I put up, it definitely says that 4250kg is the "maximum payload", but I'm not sure what that means. so worth contacting Dethleffs, possibly through the owners's club who have a direct line?

My A5881 is on the light chassis, but has two possible weights according to the factory spec sheet, 3500 as a four berth and 3850 as a six berth.

[Robinhood]

The 4250 "payload" (sic) is available only if the Maxi chassis is specified.

 

It is possible to specify 3850, and since this patently is delivered at no increase in MIRO (and I would conjecture no increase in respective maximum axle loads) it is very likely that this is simply a re-plating exercise if specified at purchase time.

[gdf]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2018-09-22 6:02 PM

 

gdf we are not stupid. About licence. I wiil stop discussing this, but upgrading fiat light to 3850 kg is no proplem at all. Take max out of it.

 

At no point in that post do I describe you or anyone else as 'stupid'.

 

I would, however, suggest that someone who lives in Belgium does not make statements about the ease of doing something that is affected by UK law.

[Derek Uzzell]

As Robinhood says, the Dethleffs data state that choosing the “weight upgrade to 3850kg” option involves no additional weight. The maximum front and rear axle weights of a Fiat Ducato ‘light’ are respectively 1850kg and 2000kg for the 3650kg MAM variant and those axle-weight values are not altered when a motorhome conversion is marketed at 3500kg MAM.

 

It’s usual for the total of the maximum front and rear axle weights to exceed the MAM and it would be interesting to know what the axle weights are on the Dethleffs data-plate of Steve’s motorhome. It’s possible that the Dethleffs 3850kg upgrade does not increase the 1850kg/2000kg weights, but it’s similarly possible that Dethleffs modify the ‘light’ chassis to have a 3850kg MAM and higher than normal maximum axle weights, and then just downplate the result to 3500kg MAM.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Ok I give it a try again. I now belgian rules, and germany most of the makers. For the UK i think SV tech is a perfect partner. I am a alko freak in our club. Let start from from point zero being a fiat 35L chassis motorhome which sits lower and larger rear track, and market leader. Their chassis number is on the cooler bridge and stamped on the right front wheel chamber. Vans have it also on the front screen. All phase one data is there about weight and axle loads. They are marketed phase two by converters mostly 3500kg whit B licence the biggest market having a type approval of beheviar on the road. They are in principal the only ones to offer upgrades new. Being 3650 up to the max of 3850 kg. Providing a COC for the upgrade. Any retrofit of weight up to requires their approval, NOT FIAT. And the rules differ per country in respect to the original COC. All 3500 are sagging due to overload and rest at their bump stops, check yours. In that case a heavy chassis was a better choice. Any way the wind blows whit a upgrade whit two springs over the bump stops to prevent sagging. Even AL-KO use it on the torsion bar axle on their Smove. Just spring assistors on the rear.

[Derek Uzzell]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2018-09-23 5:13 PM

 

...All 3500 are sagging due to overload and rest at their bump stops, check yours...

 

.... Any way the wind blows whit a upgrade whit two springs over the bump stops to prevent sagging...

 

While it will undoubtedly be true that some motorhomes built on the Fiat Ducato ‘light’ chassis wiil be sagging at the rear, it’s nonsense to state that “all 3500” motorhomes built on that base are sagging. My Rapido 640F’s stance is tail-high when empty and continues to be tail-high when fully loaded, with air-space continuing to be present between the bump-stops and the rear axle. Unless a motorhome built on the ‘light’ chassis has a long rear overhang and/or the owner loads a lot of weight behind the rear-axle line, there’s no good reason to think that ‘sagging’ will take place.

 

Presumably you are suggesting fitting to the rear suspenson additional coil springs of the type shown in the attached photo. These would address sagging, but would be unable to allow the motorhome’s owner to match the vehicle’s ride-height and spring firmness with the load being placed on the axle. I also suspect that - for much the same price - an air-bellows system could be obtained that would offer adjustability.

 

What do Dethleffs do to permit them to offer a 3850kg MAM Ducato ‘light’-based motorhome? Do they fit rear-axle coil springs?

[Deneb]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2018-09-23 5:13 PM

 

All 3500 are sagging due to overload and rest at their bump stops, check yours.

 

No, they're not. They don't have bump stops. They have suspension assistors designed to facilitate the low and wide class leading load bay that you mention. Fiat confirm that it is a normal design characteristic of the vehicle for the suspension assistors to be in contact in normal configuration. It is written in their technical documents and bulletins. The only way to confirm whether the rear axle is overloaded is to weigh the vehicle on a weighbridge.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Excellent comment Derek. The sagging i notice in most of our club members, about fifty whit equipment on the rear axle for their dogs etc. Remember you can drive heavy chassis whit B or the light C!. There are a full spectrum of variants of the 35L to reach 3850 kg. Check out yourself in your location. I have been awarded whit my A class on alko chassis and fiat 35l. L 7.56 mtr having a mot- miro of 3210. And a COC of 3850 kg. In belgium whit b, or c. licence. Sold last week to a club member. Burstner I728g 2015 impulse.