What do you think of this (symphony austosleeper)

[Troubadour]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Motor-Home-Peugeot-Boxer-270-MWB-Symphony-2-4-Berth/112926113182?hash=item1a4aebbd9e:g:teEAAOSwUZNayyEr

 

63,507 miles

 

£8,950.00

 

A good price for the mileage I rekon, if there's no rust and whatnot, i bet I can get the down a little as well. I lovet to haggle.

 

What should I look for on something like this? what questions should I be asking?

Has anyone had one of these before, what kine of mpg can I expect?

 

I've never bought second hand before, so humour me in your simplicity, What should I look for where should I look. I need to learn a lot I think

 

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi

First and foremost , dont let go of any money until you have inspected the vehicle at the vendors home address.

 

check with dvla documents that vendor is really the owner,

 

perhaps get an aa or rac vehicle inspection, and check that new mot inspection is available.. Is the vendor a dealer , if so what warranty etc is he offering.

 

obviously check function of all interal appliances,water leaks. damp test report. buy a damptest meter if you dont have access to one.

 

test the function of making up the bed, are the cushions comfortable, etc.

 

take it for a good long test drive to convince yourself and other half that really is the one you want.

 

best of luck

 

remember, if it seems too good to be true, then it probably is.

 

tong3nwl

 

[PJay]

I would question whether the side facing seat belts where legal??Not sure you would get 4 people to sleep in it either! OK for 2 people but cramped for any more, as you intend to use in UK,

 

PJay

[747]

PJay - 2018-04-16 8:33 AM

 

I would question whether the side facing seat belts where legal??Not sure you would get 4 people to sleep in it either! OK for 2 people but cramped for any more, as you intend to use in UK,

 

PJay

 

Side facing seatbelts were legal when the van was built and still are. Changes in this area are not retrospective.

[Derek Uzzell]

You can check a vehicle’s MOT history via this link

 

https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/

 

The advertised vehicle’s registration number is R869SJB and it was MOT-tested in January 2018.

 

It passed the test, with the following advisory notices:

 

Offside Front Shock absorber has a light misting of oil (2.7.3)

Offside Rear Shock absorber has a light misting of oil (2.7.3)

Nearside Front Outer Brake pipe slightly corroded (3.6.B.2c)

Nearside Front Outer Brake hose slightly deteriorated (3.6.B.4d)

Offside Front Outer Brake hose slightly deteriorated (3.6.B.4d)

Offside Rear Body has slight corrosion (6.1.B.2)

Nearside Front Inner Vehicle structure has slight corrosion (6.1.B.2)

Offside Front Inner Vehicle structure has slight corrosion (6.1.B.2)

Nearside Front Inner Suspension component mounting prescribed area is corroded but not considered excessive (2.4.A.3)

Offside Front Inner Suspension component mounting prescribed area is corroded but not considered excessive (2.4.A.3)

[Troubadour]

Thanks for that, I didn't realise MOT checks were public record, that's great. Would any of these advisories put you off buying the van, and if not, how likely to become more of an issue, and how hard to put right

[Troubadour]

I don't think the side facing seat belts are a problem in the Uk because of the age of the van, but im not sure about Europe, which is where ill be doing a lot of my driving....

[Brian Kirby]

Two things, one not for Troubadour, the other for his information.

Not for Troubadour, does the Boxer share the Ducato fifth gear problem on vans of this age? If so, I seem to remember reading that the replacement parts are now difficult to source. Is this correct?

For Troubadour's information, but he should check for his own peace of mind, as far as I am aware if a vehicle is "street legal" in the country in which it is registered, it is also legal to use in all countries that have signed up to the Vienna Convention on International Traffic, which includes all EU states.

 

If belted side-facing passenger seats were legal at the time the van was first registered (as 747 states above), they are still legal, and will be legal in Europe. If they are fitted, they must be used by passengers. They are no longer legal, because it was found that under some accident circumstances they themselves inflict injury, where forward facing seats with three point belts would not. The forward facing rear seat should be fine.

 

As an aside, I think the number of seatbelts dictates the number of designated passenger seats, so it would be very unwise to carry passengers on any seats other than those with belts (of whatever kind), as doing would be an offence. Both the driver, and any unbelted passenger, would be liable for penalty (three points on your licence in UK).

[aandy]

"I think the number of seatbelts dictates the number of designated passenger seats"

 

Not on older vehicles. As others have said, seatbelt requirements are not retrospective, so a vehicle that could legally carry four before rear belts became compulsory (2002?) can carry four now. The V5 determines a vehicle's seating capacity, and on older vehicles (I don't know the cut-off date but imagine it will be 2002) the relevant section is blank.

[Troubadour]

The year I saw was 1991 for rear seat belts. 2002 sounds late but I could be wrong

[flicka]

Ref Brian's comment on the 5 speed boc.

IIRC it wasn't available on the Peugeot petrol engine.

[Keithl]

I believe Designated Rear Seats became law for MH's in 2007.

 

Our 2003 has no rear seat belts but can still legally carry passengers.

 

Yes, quote from Motorhomeinfo.co.uk

 

"...motorhomes first registered on or after 20 October 2007 must have seat belts for forward and rearward facing seats."

 

http://www.motorhomeinfo.co.uk/seat-belts-in-motorhomes/

 

Keith.

 

Edit to add "This legislation is not retrospective so vehicles registered before 20 October 2007 do not have to have seat belts fitted in the rear."

[Brock]

Whether side seat belts are legal or not is perhaps less important than the realisation that reports suggest the people sitting in side seats with seat belts have their internal organs painfully rearranged in the event of a rear or front shunt.

 

There is a secondary issue of whether friends of Troubadour will be happy to travel in van without full forward facing seatbelts.

[Troubadour]

So from what i understand, according to this http://www.motorhomeinfo.co.uk/seat-belts-in-motorhomes/

Aything pre 2007 doesn't require seat belts in the rear, and if those seats are legal for traveling in the country of registration, they should be legal in the EU as well?

[Derek Uzzell]

In the forum discussion relating to your previous A-S Duetto enquiry I provided a link to a Lifesure webpage that offered the following advice:

 

"Travelling in Europe – update December 2014

 

This is a complicated area!

 

The use of seat belts in vehicles is compulsory for adults and children unless the vehicle was not fitted with them when it was manufactured. Unfortunately we cannot find any general guidance on side facing seats and have even tried contacting the French Consulate for advice, but to no avail.

 

However, EC Directive 2005/39/EC does say that all vehicles manufactured after 20th October 2007 must not have side facing seats for travel as it is unsafe, but as legislation cannot be applied retrospectively you theoretically do not need to have the seat belts and can use the seats for passengers should your motorhome have been manufactured prior to this date. One word of caution would be that it is impossible to know how local police will interpret the law.

 

We would advise that should you wish to travel to Europe, contact your insurance company to make them aware of the situation prior to going as some insurance policies will not cover for passengers not wearing a seat belt.

 

From a safety perspective, we would not recommend traveling anywhere un-belted with side facing seats and possibly would consider hiring a van that does meet all of the current laws."

 

It’s near certain that the lap-belts on the inwards-facing settee of the Peugeot Boxer-based Symphony in the ebay advert have been retrofitted rather than originally installed by Auto-Sleepers when the motorhome was built in 1998. If that’s the case, it’s anybody’s guess what the legal status of the belts is and whether (being not part of the motorhome’s original specification) they would have to be worn by passengers travelling seated on the settee or might be considered purely ‘ornamental’ (the belts not the passengers!)

 

I’m aware of only one motorhome model (German-built) that had, as original equipment, a seatbelt on an inwards-facing seat - so any motorhome with seatbelts on settees is likely to have had those belts retrofitted.

 

If you really want to explore the legal ramifications of seatbelts and their usage in older motorhomes, you might try asking about this via the Classic Camper Club

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/345383752261522/

 

http://www.classiccamperclub.co.uk/

 

This link offers general advice on buying a Boxer/Ducato

 

https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/30488-fiat-ducato-and-peugeot-boxer-buyers-guide

 

but an inexpensive 20-years-old motorhome won’t be in as-new condition any more than a cheap 20-years-old car will be.

 

The Symphony in the ebay advert seems worth following up (new fridge and good condition cooker) and from its MOT history you now know about some of its imperfections. As the motor is petrol-fuelled, you should expect an average mpg in the low/mid-20s.

[Keithl]

Derek Uzzell - 2018-04-17 8:13 AM

 

As the motor is petrol-fuelled, you should expect an average mpg in the low/mid-20s.

 

But the added advantage is you should not have to worry about (most) Emission Zones as they only seem to target Diesel engined vehicles! (But do double check before entering any).

 

Keith.

[747]

Troubadour - 2018-04-17 4:18 AM

 

So from what i understand, according to this http://www.motorhomeinfo.co.uk/seat-belts-in-motorhomes/

Aything pre 2007 doesn't require seat belts in the rear, and if those seats are legal for traveling in the country of registration, they should be legal in the EU as well?

 

Not correct I'm afraid.

 

Side facing Lap belts were fitted and legal up to the 2007 change when 3 point belts were compulsory. My 56 Reg Elddis Autoquest was classed as a 4 berth with 2 point belts fitted. The 2007 identical model was classed as a 2 berth (even though it could still sleep 4) and the Lap belts were removed.

[aandncaravan]

Troubadour, The MOT advisory list shown by Derek contains some quite serious items :

 

Offside Front Shock absorber has a light misting of oil (2.7.3)

Offside Rear Shock absorber has a light misting of oil (2.7.3)

Nearside Front Outer Brake pipe slightly corroded (3.6.B.2c)

Nearside Front Outer Brake hose slightly deteriorated (3.6.B.4d)

Offside Front Outer Brake hose slightly deteriorated (3.6.B.4d)

Offside Rear Body has slight corrosion (6.1.B.2)

Nearside Front Inner Vehicle structure has slight corrosion (6.1.B.2)

Offside Front Inner Vehicle structure has slight corrosion (6.1.B.2)

Nearside Front Inner Suspension component mounting prescribed area is corroded but not considered excessive (2.4.A.3)

Offside Front Inner Suspension component mounting prescribed area is corroded but not considered excessive (2.4.A.3)

 

For example, shock absorbers, especially this potential age, should be replaced as a pair and this van has issues to both front and rear offside shocks. That means 4 new shocks and a bill of about £700 alone, depending on the garage.

 

 

You should bear in mind that one MOT inspectors 'advisory' could be anothers 'Fail'.

 

But in anycase the items listed above will all deteriorate further by the next MOT, particularly the rust.

Once items like this start to 'fail' they tend to deteriorate quite fast.

 

I would guess that a Garage's bill to attend to the above could be £1,000+.

 

Those items listed above are those which fall into the MOT test, they don't test the engine, Clutch and gearboxes durability which may also be less than ideal.

 

 

Also consider that a vehicle this age is likely to have issues inside the habitation area, like the Fridge not running to well on Gas, poor batteries, Water Heater not at it's best, potential damp, Floor issues, etc.

 

 

So suggest you get a professional inspection of both the habitation area and the base vehicle.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

It would also be wise to confirm the age of the Symphony’s tyres.

 

https://www.kwik-fit.com/tyres/information/tyre-age

 

Since the MOT-test in December 2006, only some 21K miles have been recorded (with just 258 miles recorded between the 2017 and 2018 tests) so there’s a strong chance that the Symphony’s tyres are getting well on in years.

 

The UK’s MOT-test covers a tyre’s tread-depth and condition, but not how old a tyre is. It’s generally advised that a motorhome’s tyres should be replaced before they reach 7 years of age, and few motorhome owners would consider driving on tyres older than 10 years.

[Troubadour]

Thanks Derek, you've given me a lot to think about. I'll certainly follow this one up. It's a little scary to take something on with so many problems. I've not been driving long and know very little about used motors at all, but I can't expect something perfect when it's so old....

[william49]

Have you had an insurance quote?

[Troubadour]

william49 - 2018-04-17 2:46 PM

 

Have you had an insurance quote?

 

Not for a duetto, but I've had a quote for a smaller van with the same engine size. I'm hoping it won't be too much different. I only passed my test 2 days ago, but, so quotes in the region of 7-800 don't seem all that bad

[Tracker]

I do have a lot of experience of older vehicles over the years and unless you are able to do much of the work yourself that particular van could be a whole big can of worms - including the worst worm of all, tinworm.

 

Given your situation I would think long and hard as to whether I need that sort of ongoing aggravavation and unless the seller or his garage can give you a definitive cost on putting it as right as a vehicle that age is ever going to be my inclination would be to continue showing extreme caution..

 

Much depends on the definition of 'light corrosion' and if that just means surface rust that can be wire brushed off and coated with waxoyl or similar to retard further corrosion that is less of an issue than the MOT suggests.

 

Have you phoned or visited the MOT station to get their opinions?

 

Mechanical faults are definitive and can be accurately assessed for cost but once you start cutting rusty steel away who knows where it can end.

[Troubadour]

Tracker - 2018-04-18 5:07 PM

 

I do have a lot of experience of older vehicles over the years and unless you are able to do much of the work yourself that particular van could be a whole big can of worms - including the worst worm of all, tinworm.

 

Given your situation I would think long and hard as to whether I need that sort of ongoing aggravavation and unless the seller or his garage can give you a definitive cost on putting it as right as a vehicle that age is ever going to be my inclination would be to continue showing extreme caution..

 

Much depends on the definition of 'light corrosion' and if that just means surface rust that can be wire brushed off and coated with waxoyl or similar to retard further corrosion that is less of an issue than the MOT suggests.

 

Have you phoned or visited the MOT station to get their opinions?

 

Mechanical faults are definitive and can be accurately assessed for cost but once you start cutting rusty steel away who knows where it can end.

 

Thanks for the advice. I've looked passed this now, the read avaliability of parts for the transits has turned me more onto the Duetto, and I've found a really nice looking one for 9995 with no advisories

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-TRANSIT-DUETTO-AUTOSLEEPER-CAMPER-MOTORHOME-VAN-LOW-MILES/112902702044?_trkparms=pageci%3A6c73e44a-42dd-11e8-9334-74dbd180c560%7Cparentrq%3Ad7bd76b91620abc2c98972f2ffff9dc2%7Ciid%3A1&_trksid=p2481888.c100678.m3607

[Bulletguy]

Troubadour - 2018-04-18 7:12 PM

 

Thanks for the advice. I've looked passed this now, the read avaliability of parts for the transits has turned me more onto the Duetto, and I've found a really nice looking one for 9995 with no advisories

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-TRANSIT-DUETTO-AUTOSLEEPER-CAMPER-MOTORHOME-VAN-LOW-MILES/112902702044?_trkparms=pageci%3A6c73e44a-42dd-11e8-9334-74dbd180c560%7Cparentrq%3Ad7bd76b91620abc2c98972f2ffff9dc2%7Ciid%3A1&_trksid=p2481888.c100678.m3607

That looks a very tidy van from the photos and is a good price too. Certainly worth a look. The description reads promising too

 

My van is a Duetto and one thing they all share in common is they hold the price extremely well. Mine is a year 2000 and looking on Auto Trader i see same models selling at more than what i paid for mine eight years ago which is pretty bonkers but shows how they hold the price. They are highly sought after so don't expect that van to hang around long....you will need to view it asap.

 

Plus points is Ford parts are available virtually anywhere throughout Europe. Rust is the main enemy of Transits though that one appears to look sound but you cannot judge only from photos. Any cosmetic rust is easy to sort and best done professionally.

 

The standard fuel pump fitted was Lucas Epic......and they are no longer made. It's an electronic pump so if it goes belly up anytime you are in for some REAL fun and games! Mine did a couple of years ago and i've had a Bosch mechanical pump fitted which had to be converted to run with the turbo. Not cheap! BUT.....you may be lucky! First indication 'something' is wrong is the warning light on the dash which stays on and the engine goes into "limp mode"....max mph around 35-40mph on the flat.

 

Another point though this applies with most panel vans like the Duetto, internal space is at a premium so it's worth having a back box fitted. To do that you need a Fiamma bike rack (which the box sits on and is bolted to) and the 320 is the most ideal for the Duetto; https://www.agentfiamma.co.uk/fiamma-ultra-box-320-rear-storage-box.html

 

Not cheap but if you keep an eye on ebay you will find Fiamma boxes selling. I paid just £50 for mine and it was in mint condition. The bike rack cost me £185 new. You can fit them yourself but personally i'd advise having it professionally fitted.

 

You'd need to do a few trips first to see if you feel you could use one. But i'd certainly get on to looking at that van pretty sharpish. It will sell.