Travelling Toddlers Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 Evening all..... We are en route to the continent, taking the Harwich to Hook of Holland ferry, from there we are travelling down to Austria (St Anton). The tyres on our Burstner Argos 747-2 are currently summer ones (no M&S marking) though we realise we need winter tyres when travelling in Germany & Austria. So can anyone advise on the following: 1) legally do all 6 wheels HAVE to have winter tyres for Austria/Germany.....can't find any definitive information on this......or just the drive wheels? 2) can anyone recommend somewhere near the HoH port that might be able to fit them with short notice (hoping that large winter tyres are easier to come by on the continent than the uk!) We have got snow chains but wanting some clarification about the tyres. Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted December 9, 2017 Share Posted December 9, 2017 All 6. Its not just about traction but rear end grip as well. Just fitted my Goodyear Cargo Ultragrips ready for Switzerland. You are going to need them pretty quick. Ps, I have 15" wheels and the winter tyres are all 225 whereas original summers were 215 so different size of chains were needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Travelling Toddlers I’m guessing that your 2007 Burstner’s present ‘summer’ tyres are 215/75 R16 size. Unless you plan to refit the present tyres after winter is over, and if for your Austria/Germany touring you want to put on tyres that are marked with the 3PMSF (Alpine) symbol https://www.goodyear.eu/corporate_emea/our-responsibilities/road-safety/winter-tire-recognition.jsp it might be better to choose an ‘all seasons’ tyre that carries that symbol rather than a full-house ‘winter’ tyre that may be less suitable for warm-weather motoring. There are quite a few ‘winter’ tyres in the 215/75 R16 size https://tinyurl.com/y7fdzqwo but the only ‘all season’ tyre that I know of that carries the 3PMSF symbol is Vredestein’s “Comtrac 2 All Season” product. https://www.vredestein.co.uk/car-suv-van/tyre-finder/tyres/product/3/1011 ‘Winter’ van tyres sometimes have a directional tread-pattern that complicates rotating wheels to equalise wear, tyre replacement or if a spare-wheel needs to be brought into play. It’s something to bear in mind... https://www.kwik-fit.com/blog/tyre-tread-whats-the-difference-between-asymmetric-and-directional-tyres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-12-10 12:03 PM.................................but the only ‘all season’ tyre that I know of that carries the 3PMSF symbol is Vredestein’s “Comtrac 2 All Season” product. https://www.vredestein.co.uk/car-suv-van/tyre-finder/tyres/product/3/1011..................................... Also, as I understand it, to be future compliant in Germany, you will have to have tyres that carry the 3PMSF symbol. They presently accept the M+S designation, but are changing the law to the more demanding 3PMSF designation in the relatively near future (sorry, don't know when, but definitely within the life span of the new tyres!). That seems to me to bring you down to just the Comtrac 2 All Season tyres as the best value compromise. If your van carries a spare you would be wise to get that re-shod also, as it is strongly recommended that the winter designated tyres are not mixed across an axle with anything else. So, you really need to locate a fitter who has 7 of them in stock, or can get them to suit your timescale. Perhaps contact Vredestein for advice on handy fitters with stock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 This link refers to a tightening up of winter-tyre laws in Germany http://www.tyrepress.com/2016/04/germany-to-tighten-winter-tyre-rules/ The information was mentioned in this earlier forum thread http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Winter-Tyre-Requirements-changing-Europe-/43346/#M504551 and - if accurate - would mean that any M+S-marked tyre manufactured prior to 1 January 2018 would conform to Germany’s winter-tyre regulations for several years. In principle, then, TT could have fitted abroad much more readily-available M+S-marked ‘summer’ tyres (eg. Michelin Agilis Camping or Hankook Vantra LT RA18) that would comply with German/Austrian winter-tyre laws for quite some time and still be appropriate for driving in hot countries. For what it’s worth, it appears from this January 2017 link https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/6/Seite.0631001.html that Austrian ‘winter-tyre’ law would require TT’s over-3500kg MAM Burstner to have M+S-marked tyres only on its front wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 If you change them over on mainland Europe, what are you going to do with your old one's, especially if they are still good? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Thanks for finding that, Derek. The clarification on continued use of M+S tyres, providing they are made before 1/1/18 (which any on sale at present must, surely, be) is useful. This worries me a bit, though, "For what it’s worth, it appears from this January 2017 link https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/hlpd/public/content/6/Seite.0631001.html that Austrian ‘winter-tyre’ law would require TT’s over-3500kg MAM Burstner to have M+S-marked tyres only on its front wheels." Logically (up to a point, Lord Copper!) it seems to me this is aimed at rear wheel drive vehicles, 'though this is not stated. I'm assuming their concern, as seems the case in Germany, is that vehicles should have adequate traction not to slither to a standstill on an icy carriageway, effectively blocking the road and causing a hold-up. If you do, and you don't have at least M+S tyres fitted, you are liable to a fine. But, fitting M+S (or 3PMSF), to one axle only is strongly discouraged by the tyre manufacturers on safety grounds. As it was put to me, one has also to be able to stop/descend under control, and having tyres with less grip on one axle (especially the front), while having tyres that give a better grip on another, is a recipe for instability. I'd guess that the Burstner probably has ABS, which should compensate to some extent, but the idea of getting a van that size sideways on ice is a definite off-putter for me! It's all a bit academic in any case since, of course, one has first to get to Austria; and coming from the UK, that is almost bound to involve Germany, where single axle fitment does not seem to be contemplated. I'm also somewhat concerned as to what might be the legal consequences if operating a vehicle under extreme conditions, where a tyre combination was not considered safe by the manufacturer, and where an injury accident resulted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travelling Toddlers Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 Thanks all for so much information & help....we really appreciate it & certainly raised a few issues we'd not considered. Probably the smart thing to have done would be look for all season replacements and leave the old tyres with the garage on the continent. However it's all, rather unfortunately, become somewhat a moot point as our clutch burnt out completely en route to Harwich last night! Stranded on the M40 hard should in the freezing conditions was less fun than heading to the alps! (at least it happened in the UK!) So winter tyres may not be necessary after all! At least what we save on not replacing the tyres can go towards the new clutch! Thanks again for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Yes very important to have good winter tyres. I will and have to because of my partner age to downsize. It will be a VAN 4wd. A fiat dangelsystem. 9000 euro extra and 150 kg and 1200 euro for a off-rod pakket to raise height. Or a MB sprinter new model whit ex worlks 4wd. Hymer or La - strada. Or ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Travelling Toddlers - 2017-12-10 5:04 PM Thanks all for so much information & help....we really appreciate it & certainly raised a few issues we'd not considered. Probably the smart thing to have done would be look for all season replacements and leave the old tyres with the garage on the continent. However it's all, rather unfortunately, become somewhat a moot point as our clutch burnt out completely en route to Harwich last night! Stranded on the M40 hard should in the freezing conditions was less fun than heading to the alps! (at least it happened in the UK!) So winter tyres may not be necessary after all! At least what we save on not replacing the tyres can go towards the new clutch! Thanks again for the advice. What bad luck. Hope it all gets sorted without too much delay. Can't you put back your travel arrangements and go after repairs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travelling Toddlers Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 Thank you Brian, hopefully we will make it out sometime soon....at least it gives us a little more time to sort the tyres! The main frustration is that we only picked the motorhome up from the garage on Thursday, after 5 weeks getting throttle valve replaced! Plus we had to replace the EGR valve whilst in Germany in July, I think if there was a 'Fiat Ducati script' our van has stuck to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Just as a matter of interest, what year and mileage is your van, and which engine? It may just be bad luck, but 5 weeks seems a ridiculously long time for getting the throttle "valve" (body, perhaps?) replaced, and it is very strange that no-one in all that time spotted an incipient clutch fault. What on earth were they doing with the van during those five weeks? You said the "burnt out", which I assume means it began slipping with a very hot smell and possibly some smoke, so that you could engage a gear OK, but then couldn't engage the clutch so as to drive the van. It seems doubly odd that this should happen on a motorway, where I assume you were cruising with the clutch fully engaged, so not under stress. Such failures are usually apparent well before the clutch actually fails completely, because it begins unexpectedly slipping, such as when accelerating, or driving up-hill, when the engine speeds up but the van does not go correspondingly faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-12-10 12:03 PM but the only ‘all season’ tyre that I know of that carries the 3PMSF symbol is Vredestein’s “Comtrac 2 All Season” product. Continental have a couple in their range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 The Dutch RDW pulled out a recall on fiat ducato. Including all fiat/motorhomebrands. Problem bad range of EGR tubes whit cracks manufactured, Which are a safety concern about fire. No further details. Just the numbers of recall on the dutch market. In holland the RDW handle this in first place and follow up in quantity who call in. FCA wtite the lettres. Be aware if your beloved motorhome is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 lennyhb - 2017-12-11 12:23 PM Derek Uzzell - 2017-12-10 12:03 PM but the only ‘all season’ tyre that I know of that carries the 3PMSF symbol is Vredestein’s “Comtrac 2 All Season” product. Continental have a couple in their range. I’m sure there is a number of ‘all season’ tyres that carry the 3PMSF symbol, but (to the best of my knowledge) none of these will be suitable for a 2007 Burstner Argos that requires 215/75 R16C tyres with a load index of at least 113. If Continental do have ‘all season’ VAN tyres that are 3PMSF-marked, please could you identify the range(s) with that specification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-12-11 6:21 PM I’m sure there is a number of ‘all season’ tyres that carry the 3PMSF symbol, but (to the best of my knowledge) none of these will be suitable for a 2007 Burstner Argos that requires 215/75 R16C tyres with a load index of at least 113. If Continental do have ‘all season’ VAN tyres that are 3PMSF-marked, please could you identify the range(s) with that specification. Derek, Not exactly answering your question but Continental only show three patterns of van tyre with 3PMSF markings in their latest 2017 - 2018 on-line catalogue. https://blobs.continental-tires.com/www8/servlet/blob/85806/e0854f2c7866c64da551474b998ef8b3/download-technical-databook-data.pdf Looking at pages 77 - 78 they offer VanContact Winter, VanContact Winter2 and VanContact 4Season. The only part of your query I can't answer is if all these patterns are offered in a 215/75 R16 113 size! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 It is possible to obtain a 215/75 R16C 113 tyre from the VanContact Winter range, but this is a ‘winter’ tyre not an ‘all season’ one. Similarly VancoWinter 2 is a range of ‘winter’ tyres (and the 215/75 R16C is not included). VanContact 4Season does not include the 215/75 R16 size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Just put some vredestein comtrac 2 all season on mine. Bought from Camskill.co.uk had em out this weekend in the snow. Certainly better than the vanco camping tyres they replaced, which got me stuck in the snow many times. Not had them on my 'official' test runs yet though - 'the slide' south of Glenshee and the cairngorm ski Road. Had some maxxis MA-LAS all seasons on old van - don't rate them. Can't comment on the vanco winters or the agillis camping (both M+S marked) Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airstream Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Had Comtrac 2 tyres on our van for three years and find them superior in every way to the camper tyres fitted when new They are very good in normal road conditions and a vast improvement on wet grass and mud, we had no problems exiting the Peterborough show ground whilst all aound us required a tractor tow Ours were supplied and fitted by Event Tyres Ray Derek Uzzell - 2017-12-10 12:03 PM Travelling Toddlers I’m guessing that your 2007 Burstner’s present ‘summer’ tyres are 215/75 R16 size. Unless you plan to refit the present tyres after winter is over, and if for your Austria/Germany touring you want to put on tyres that are marked with the 3PMSF (Alpine) symbol https://www.goodyear.eu/corporate_emea/our-responsibilities/road-safety/winter-tire-recognition.jsp it might be better to choose an ‘all seasons’ tyre that carries that symbol rather than a full-house ‘winter’ tyre that may be less suitable for warm-weather motoring. There are quite a few ‘winter’ tyres in the 215/75 R16 size https://tinyurl.com/y7fdzqwo but the only ‘all season’ tyre that I know of that carries the 3PMSF symbol is Vredestein’s “Comtrac 2 All Season” product. https://www.vredestein.co.uk/car-suv-van/tyre-finder/tyres/product/3/1011 ‘Winter’ van tyres sometimes have a directional tread-pattern that complicates rotating wheels to equalise wear, tyre replacement or if a spare-wheel needs to be brought into play. It’s something to bear in mind... https://www.kwik-fit.com/blog/tyre-tread-whats-the-difference-between-asymmetric-and-directional-tyres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 There is a potential snag with the Vredestein Comtrac 2 All Season tyre in this particular instance... Earlier in this thread I said "Travelling Toddlers I’m guessing that your 2007 Burstner’s present ‘summer’ tyres are 215/75 R16 size....” TT did not contradict my guess and, if his Burstner does have that tyre size, then fitting Vredestein Comtrac 2 All Season tyres would be practicable. But if the motorhome is based on a Ducato X250 chasis, the tyres will be 225/75 R16 size and Comtrac 2 All Season is (apparently) not marketed in that size. https://www.vredestein.co.uk/car-suv-van/tyre-finder/tyres/product/3/1011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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