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X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
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userPeter James
Posted: 11 March 2014 7:43 PM
Subject: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


My 2008 X2/50 van – Citroen Relay 2.2 engine as fitted in the Ducato, but 120 bhp version.
I have had this van from new but now found the engine has suddenly lost most of its torque below about 2200 revs – just a lot of black smoke and little power. This is making hill starts impossible without burning the clutch. The only way I can get up a steep hill is to take a run at it – if the engine is doing over 2000 revs it will keep going. I used to make a living as a motor mechanic, but that was a long time ago and my knowledge is about 40 years out of date!!
No warning lights are coming on, air filter, oil and water are OK, have bled the diesel but makes no difference.
Any ideas please?
userseadog
Posted: 11 March 2014 8:11 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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I think I would be looking closely at the turbo and the connections to it
userartheytrate
Posted: 11 March 2014 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Possibly EGR valve blocked or sticking.

John.
userpeter
Posted: 11 March 2014 10:12 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


As Seadog suggests. Check all turbo hoses for loose connection or air leaks, also air filter for blockage.
userFrank McAuley
Posted: 11 March 2014 10:19 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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It looks like the turbo or the EGR valve but the absence of a warning light is strange . I had a similar problem with my Fiat Ducato 160 and it was the EGR valve but the warning icon was present.
userCliveH
Posted: 11 March 2014 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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I would check to see if the Intercooler and turbo hoses are collapsing under load. Difficult to spot as they pop back into shape on tick over and when the engine is not running. This is a problem on older TD Land and Range Rovers that gives exactly the same symptoms - in particular - because no actual leak - no warning light - so a new set of hoses may be the cure.

Some after market ones have a wire looped through the hose to give better protection against collapse - but I am a great fan of using OE.

If they feel flaccid - best to change them.

Best not to fear the worst until the simple things have been eliminated.

Hope this is the case for you Peter.




userBrambles
Posted: 11 March 2014 11:31 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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I would get it checked out as soon as possible, any increase in smoke can be a warning sign of a serious pending failure. I certainly would not be driving it while a serious smoking and power loss fault exists.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 12 March 2014 8:04 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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The motor in Peter's vehicle is a derivative of the powerplant used in the FWD Ford Transit Mk 7.

Unless there's a problem with the hoses (as suggested above) an EGR-valve fault is a strong possibility, though (as Frank says) one might expect a warning light to illuminate if that were the case.

http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80989

As the problem has occurred suddenly and is severe, it would be sensible to heed Brambles's advice and have the vehicle examined professionally asap. There are quite a few reasons why the motor could be well down on torque, but the heavy smoking symptoms are worrying.
userPeter James
Posted: 12 March 2014 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Many thanks for all the replies, food for thought. Funny thing is it seems OK over about 2500 revs. I wondered if it might be something wrong with the computer – my knowledge of repairing computers extends to switching them off then switching them on again, so I tried that by disconnecting the battery for an hour whilst parked up, but that didn’t work. I have just disconnected the electrical plug to the EGR valve – doesn’t trigger any warning lights, I will see if it makes any difference when I come to the next hill – I don’t suppose it will if the valve is stuck? Unfortunately am touring Devon & Cornwall, if you had to keep the engine at 2500 revs to get enough power to start off up some of the hills it would burn the clutch out. Currently parked in Salcombe (They seem lovely people here but very few of them as over half the properties are second homes and apparently empty this time of year, street parking restrictions start on the 1st of May) When I came in up one of the hills I couldn't get enough power to get started. I was expecting abuse from the woman in the car stuck behind me, seeing all the black smoke she backed off down the hill enabling me to do the same and take another run at it - over 2,000 revs there was plenty of torque to get up hill.
usercolin
Posted: 12 March 2014 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Check the air filter for mice damage, I now know of 4 vans having this, although not usualy black smoke, only the power loss. I'm struggling to remember what Nick said the most common problem was when low down power loss and loads of smoke.
userBrambles
Posted: 12 March 2014 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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This thread is the most relevant I can find. It refers to the throttle body being at fault and how to check it.
Whether this is your problem or not I do not know of course, but seems like a good starting point until Nick offers some sound advice. It does sound like a throttle body failure would give the symtoms you have though. A fault code check would aid diagnosis.

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/FIAT-X250-2-3Ltr-Engine-problem/34024/#M413424

usereuroserv
Posted: 12 March 2014 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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Hello.

If you don't have any holes in your Turbo pipes and they are securely fitted, you probably have a hole in your intercooler. It's below the coolant radiator and is vulnerable to stone damage. No more so than any other vehicle, but it can happen. You will see an area of darker muck or actual oil running from it.

I am not familiar with the EGR, Throttle body or solenoid situation on the 2.2 engine, so don't know what typically happens but problems that cause this sort of smoke and power loss will normally bring up a warning light if it is a part that is electronically controlled or monitored that is at fault.

As you were previously a mechanic; I am sure that you realise that you should get this fixed and not keep using it until you do. You can cause a lot of damage by just persevering!

Nick
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 12 March 2014 1:24 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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This Ford Transit Forum thread relates to problems with a 2008 Citroen Relay with 2.2litre motor

http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=133557

(I'm not suggesting that this has a direct relevance to Peter's motor's smoking/power-loss problem, but it does indicate how tricky accurate diagnosis can be.)
userPeter James
Posted: 12 March 2014 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Many Thanks for the replies

euroserv - 2014-03-12 12:24 PM

you probably have a hole in your intercooler. It's below the coolant radiator and is vulnerable to stone damage.

Nick


Can't see any damage there Nick. Nevertheless, your suggestion proved very helpful because following the pipes from it led me to the 'Integrated air temperature and absolute pressure sensor' (number 9 on the diagram Edit: unfortunately the diagram is a microsoft word file and this forum won't upload it). I disconnected the electrical plug and it has made a remarkable improvement. The black smoke has gone, and the engine runs much smoother - no coughing or spluttering now, fuel consumption seems to have improved, and power is adequate
But it is still well down on its normal power, and the emission control system warning light now stays on
(which it didn't before when it was belching out clouds of black smoke . )

Edited by Peter James 2014-03-12 7:42 PM
usercolin
Posted: 12 March 2014 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Peter James - 2014-03-12 7:30 PM

Many Thanks for the replies

euroserv - 2014-03-12 12:24 PM

you probably have a hole in your intercooler. It's below the coolant radiator and is vulnerable to stone damage.

Nick


Can't see any damage there Nick. Nevertheless, your suggestion proved very helpful because following the pipes from it led me to the 'Integrated air temperature and absolute pressure sensor' (number 9 on the diagram Edit: unfortunately the diagram is a microsoft word file and this forum won't upload it). I disconnected the electrical plug and it has had a very noticeable effect. The black smoke has gone, and the engine runs much smoother - no coughing or spluttering now, fuel consumption seems to have improved, and power is adequate But it is still well down on its normal power, and the emission control system warning light stays on.


Do you mean the MAP sensor? located just down stream of the air filter.
userPeter James
Posted: 12 March 2014 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


colin - 2014-03-12 7:40 PM

Do you mean the MAP sensor? located just down stream of the air filter.


Well the diagram I have doesn't call it a 'MAP' sensor.
Just downstream of the air filter is what they call a 'Hot film intake air flow sensor' I disconnected that and it made no difference whatsoever. So I reconnected it. But downstream of that is the Turbo, then the Intercooler. then just before it goes into the inlet manifold is this so called 'Integrated air temperature and absolute pressure sensor' Disconnecting that has made a big improvement, but its still not right.
userpeter
Posted: 12 March 2014 8:08 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Have a read here.
http://www.dieselbombers.com/24-valve-2nd-gen-dodge-cummins-98-5-02/37781-what-does-map-sensor-do-what-would-syptoms.html

The manifold absolute pressure sensor can be easily replaced and is readily available on E.Bay for little money. You can try taking it out and cleaning the old one and it may be o/k. My wifes diesel corsa used to be the same 'till I changed the sensor and it' been good for 3 yrs now. It was covered in oily crud from slow traffic journeys.
usercolin
Posted: 12 March 2014 8:22 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Just been looking at the manual (which I believe you linked to last year?)
I would note there are seemingly mistakes in that manual, I looked up MAP sensor after being told by Fiat garage that needed replacing and the picture that came up showed was nothing like the MAP sensor on the vehicle, the picture showed the sensor you are looking at, but in fact the actual MAP sensor is the one the manual calls 'hot film...'.
userBrambles
Posted: 12 March 2014 8:22 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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I am wondering if you waste gate valve is stuck open. Maybe worth checking it has not siezed.
Can you hear the turbo spin up when you rev the engine a little bit, or feel the pressure build up in the hoses?
userPeter James
Posted: 13 March 2014 6:33 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


peter - 2014-03-12 8:08 PM
The manifold absolute pressure sensor .


Thanks Peter, I should have realised they meant the one next to the manifold (the one that improved matters when disconnected). I have just taken it out and it is blocked up with black crud just as you say, so now have it soaking in petrol Just one torx screw holding it in - I will see if I can upload a couple of photos of it, but am currently parked at Newton Ferrers with an intermittent internet connection..
Edit: photos seem to have loaded, but shown after I had cleaned lots of crud off the sensor, and before I put it to soak in petrol

Edited by Peter James 2014-03-13 6:37 AM




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Attachments 6C11-9F479-AB.jpg (86KB - 1120 downloads)
Attachments 6C11-9F479-AB(2).jpg (61KB - 903 downloads)
userPeter James
Posted: 13 March 2014 6:52 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


colin - 2014-03-12 8:22 PM

Just been looking at the manual (which I believe you linked to last year?)
I would note there are seemingly mistakes in that manual, I looked up MAP sensor after being told by Fiat garage that needed replacing and the picture that came up showed was nothing like the MAP sensor on the vehicle, the picture showed the sensor you are looking at, but in fact the actual MAP sensor is the one the manual calls 'hot film...'.


I haven't found it in the elearn manual, the one I am looking at is the FIAT mechanics training school thing from 2006 when the X2/50 was first introduced - not really a manual because it gives no dismantling or reassambly instructions, more like a description of what was new on the vehicle.
userJimish
Posted: 13 March 2014 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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Peter James - 2014-03-11 7:43 PM

My 2008 X2/50 van – Citroen Relay 2.2 engine as fitted in the Ducato, but 120 bhp version.
I have had this van from new but now found the engine has suddenly lost most of its torque below about 2200 revs – just a lot of black smoke and little power. This is making hill starts impossible without burning the clutch. The only way I can get up a steep hill is to take a run at it – if the engine is doing over 2000 revs it will keep going. I used to make a living as a motor mechanic, but that was a long time ago and my knowledge is about 40 years out of date!!
No warning lights are coming on, air filter, oil and water are OK, have bled the diesel but makes no difference.
Any ideas please?

I have just had exactly the same problem on my Romahome R30. Same base vehicle but 2007 and 100bhp.
My local garage diagnosed it as the EGR valve stuck open. When it was removed and examined, a tooth had broken off one of the operating cogs, and was jamming the mechanism open.
I'm not a mechanic and don't know what an EGR valve is but they replaced it, relieved me of £282 and now the van is back to normal.
Hope this helps.
userSteve928
Posted: 13 March 2014 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Peter,
Can you hear the EGR self-cleaning process takng place when you switch off the engine?
It's like a sawing sound, something like "zgee-zgaw", 5 times after the engine stops.
It's quite distinctive with the bonnet open.

If it doesn't do it then it's stuck.

P.S. you can hear it at 17 seconds on this video except that on mine it was much slower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVk-oxSZbNM

Edited by Steve928 2014-03-13 11:52 AM
userGeoff Cole
Posted: 13 March 2014 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 
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HI James,
I had the same problem on my Fiat 2.2. Changing the EGR valve did not solve the problem it turned out to be a fault in the ECU program leaving the valve partially open. I have disconnected it and the problem was solved. I suggest you try un plugging it you will find the valve on the front of the engine about halvay along and halfway down the block just pull the plug out, its worth a try to see if it solves the problem, mine run a lot beter without it and better fuel consumption.
Regards Geoff C
userPeter James
Posted: 14 March 2014 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Many Thanks for all the replies and ideas, Much Appreciated
Geoff Cole - 2014-03-13 6:19 PM

HI James,
I had the same problem on my Fiat 2.2. Changing the EGR valve did not solve the problem it turned out to be a fault in the ECU program leaving the valve partially open. I have disconnected it and the problem was solved. I suggest you try un plugging it you will find the valve on the front of the engine about halvay along and halfway down the block just pull the plug out, its worth a try to see if it solves the problem, mine run a lot beter without it and better fuel consumption.
Regards Geoff C


Many Thanks, perhaps thats my problem, I have unplugged the EGR valve and it makes no difference to anything as far as I can see, so I am wondering if it is broken. Never heard any cleaning cycle either. I have only travelled about 20 miles and the Map sensor has collected quite a lot more soot already, so just washed it in petrol again. Not really a roadside job to take the EGR valve off though - I am parked overnight on Grand Parade in Plymouth, and the Parking Meter charges start at 10am
userPeter James
Posted: 14 March 2014 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


They didn't have a map sensor at the Citroen Dealers in Plymouth. The original I washed in petrol, but if you reconnect it then it soots up again after about 30 miles, so will run home with it disconnected and order a new one on ebay. Thanks for all the help.
userKeithl
Posted: 14 March 2014 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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But why is the MAP sensor sooting up?

If it has failed it will not cause itself to soot up. Something else must have failed to cause the soot. possibly EGR?

Keith.
userPeter James
Posted: 14 March 2014 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


Keithl - 2014-03-14 7:03 PM

But why is the MAP sensor sooting up?

If it has failed it will not cause itself to soot up. Something else must have failed to cause the soot. possibly EGR?

Keith.


I don't know.
Looking on ebay I see blanking plates for the EGR valve, Perhaps I should send for one of these at the same time as a new Map sensor when I get home - the dealers don't seem to stock them The problem I have found with Citroen dealers is that, looking at their forecourts about 99% of their business is cars and they seem to have little experience with vans. When I took mine in for a new wheel carrier they fitted the wrong one (15" instead of 16" wheel) and sent the van out with the spare wheel held on by only one bolt partially screwed on - and since they don't stock the relevant van parts either it doesn't inspire much confidence. This is the blanking plate I saw : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-Valve-blanking-plate-FORD-MK7-TRANSIT-2-2-2-4-tdci-Land-Rover-Citroen-relay-/120940252274?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c2899cc72
usercolin
Posted: 14 March 2014 8:30 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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Peter James - 2014-03-14 7:56 PM

Keithl - 2014-03-14 7:03 PM

But why is the MAP sensor sooting up?

If it has failed it will not cause itself to soot up. Something else must have failed to cause the soot. possibly EGR?

Keith.


I don't know.
Looking on ebay I see blanking plates for the EGR valve, Perhaps I should send for one of these at the same time as a new Map sensor when I get home - the dealers don't seem to stock them


When I looked into this it required reprogramming as well as just fitting the blanking plate, several hundred pounds IIRC.
userhallii
Posted: 14 March 2014 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: X2/50 black smoke and loss of torque at lower revs
 


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If you blank the EGR off it will throw up a warning light.

If you want to run without the EGR and blanked you need to have the software altered to delete the EGR.

From what I have read these engines do not run well with the EGR blanked and power is affected.

H
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