alko amc rear axle(s) GREASING

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Pleased be informed: The standard version with 3 torsion bars L/R fixed in the midle. And two swing arms who take the full load as a std leave spring. And are pre loaded to ride height as the leafs. torsion bars only one teeth.The bump stop in std fiat you can see, in trucks the can create holes in the floor. Torsion bars have their own bump stops and go back to memory. These short swing arms have two bearing shells pressed in a steel hollow tube of certain thickness where they swing in some degrees not 360. So at idle when greasing and under full house load you wiil not get where it should be so un load as much possible and find the ideal grease angle of the bushes where the grease can come in Ideal all tyres up or one on each site. Alko can provide grease free axles but at high price more than a grease gun. At the alko service centers in germany every day two users pop in with no grease axles and pay the bill.

[tonyishuk]

Not sure where the above came from but newer owners please be aware that the service greasing of an Alko rear axle is not normally included in a Fiat / Pegeout service.

 

My local Fiat garage told me that they no longer have grease guns, but I could supply my own and they would carry out the work!!

 

Rgds

[Steve928]

I grease my own Al-Ko axle religiously with the specified grease but given how far inboard the grease nipple is and the lack of pressure that you can apply ("stop at the first sign of resistance") I often wondered how the grease was supposed to get to the large plain bearings at the extremity of the axle.

 

These people, who rebuild Al-Ko- axle, agree and their webite is well worth a look:

http://www.fraserbrowneng.co.uk/index.php?c=al-ko-axle-repair

 

"The manufacturer fits a grease nipple the sole function of which is to give the owner a warm feeling while doing very little good".

 

For me it's just another nail in the coffin of this dreadful piece of engineering which I'll be avoiding in the future.

[747]

Steve928 - 2016-10-21 7:53 PM

 

I grease my own Al-Ko axle religiously with the specified grease but given how far inboard the grease nipple is and the lack of pressure that you can apply ("stop at the first sign of resistance") I often wondered how the grease was supposed to get to the large plain bearings at the extremity of the axle.

 

These people, who rebuild Al-Ko- axle, agree and their webite is well worth a look:

http://www.fraserbrowneng.co.uk/index.php?c=al-ko-axle-repair

 

"The manufacturer fits a grease nipple the sole function of which is to give the owner a warm feeling while doing very little good".

 

For me it's just another nail in the coffin of this dreadful piece of engineering which I'll be avoiding in the future.

 

What about poor sods like me? I have 2 Alko axles on the back end of the van and neither have grease nipples. I feel left out of things. :'(

[nimod]

Near side on my alko rear axle was sticking & I could not

remove the wheel so took it off & replaced the bushes it

[nimod]

Had a word with a man ( over 25 years experience ) & he said that you can cut along the outer tube then spread it to get the inner sing arm tube out or heat it up & tap out the swing arm which I did ( did not want to re-weld the outer after cutting it ) two calor gas torches one each side & plenty of heat & it let go eventually, I was surprised to find that the bushes were fibre glass the grease nipples go into holes one in each bush but with the swing arm movement they side out of line then you cannot put any grease into the bush journals

 

[keninpalamos]

AlKo torsion bar suspension was designed by Wells Fargo and is about as good. It has been "modified" over the years but is still a disgraceful piece of work. I'll stop short of calling it designed engineering. The early version used a square section torsion bar made up of 4 to five steel strips welded together at each end. One bar was used per axle. It was located in the middle of the axle tube by a location block of steel with a square location hole. There was a similar location hole in the swinging arm assembly's and inner rotating tube. The outer tube had 4 phosphor bronze bushes located to support a swinging arm tube at each end. The whole assembly was and hopefully still is on mine, held together by a grub screw which screws into and through the swinging arm into a location drilling in each end of the torsion bar. The grub screw has a lock nut. If the torsion bar breaks, which they are prone to do, it would be possible to lose your wheel, hub, brakedrum etc on that side of the axle. The only thing holding it together would be your handbrake cable. The grease nipple is screwed into the outer axle tube between the 2 bronze bushes on each end of the axle. When grease is introduced it squeezes, travels between the inner and outer tubes and then between the inner tube and bushes. Grease can be seen coming out at the end of the axle tube next to the swinging arm.....hopefully. The road wheel should be free of any load when greasing and do not raise, jack the vehicle up using the outer tube as you will damage it. Only use the jacking points. Grease at the very least once a year. Later units have been modified in a desperate attempt to improve the design so will be different. Which confirms that it was not a good idea to start with.

[nimod]

Found another photo

Swing arm seized at the top of the swing & could not get the wheel off for the wheel arch, only 4 bolts hold the axel to the alko chassis, a bolt with a point on it go`s into a counter sunk hole in the torsion it is out on the photo

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Nice info about the Al-ko Bt axle now we have Btr version with round torsion bars and swing arms in two pressed in bearing journals- bushes with grease nipples. The torsion bars are fixed in the swing arm and in the middle of the hollow axle Tube of about 6mm thick dont jack in the middle. They hold swing arms axial in position. The swing is difficult to grease. You can pre load only one teeth. You can option for grease free btr ca axle wich has a needle bearing and still one bush and no grease connections.Dont forget you have a inner grease and a outer which is visible keep this one full of grease to keep water and dirt out. You also can go for air assist in that case most of the load goes to the air pressure away from the torsion bars. Some are still there to act as a guide and fixing the swing arms 10 percent load. At the alko service centres every day users came in whit dry axles and pay the bill.

[Steve928]

keninpalamos - 2016-10-27 4:14 PM

 

AlKo torsion bar suspension was designed by Wells Fargo and is about as good. (snip..)

 

It's refreshing to find at least one other person who doesn't think that Al-Ko axles are God's gift to motorhome owners but sadly I must first correct you; it was in fact designed by Heath-Robinson before being passed to Wells Fargo for further development. I can understand your confusion though :-)

 

Returning briefly to the subject of greasing, my axle doesn't seem to fit the description that you give of a grease nipple lying between the the swing arm bushes. Mine is the extra-wide rear track version with c. 300mm protrusion of the axle tube each side of the chassis. The grease nipple, however, remains inside the chassis rails and therefore sems to be well inboard of both bushes, almost as if they forgot to move it when the axle tube was extended, perish the thought. Despite regular greasing I've seen no evidence of grease finding its way outboard to the bushes and I suspect that the axle reconditioners linked-to in my first post are correct and that it's a pointless exercise.

 

Regarding torsion-bar suspension (note: genuine torsion bar and not torsion tube) in general I owned several cars so-equipped in the 80s, for example the wondefull Peugeot 205GTi. These did serve to highlight 2 weaknesses of the system which are confirmed by Googling the technology in general:

- torsion bars cannot easily provide progressive spiring rates and an acceptable balance between comfort and load carrying is hard to achieve.

- torsion bar suspension tends to suffer from inequal ride height across the axle and most manufacturers provide a means of correcting this, even if it resorts to removing the swing arm and relocating it on a different spline on the bars.

These failings were confirmed by my own car ownership; although supple and exhibiting superb handling the Peugeots would point their headlights at the sky if the rear seat was occupied and all suffered from inequal ride height and were returned under warranty to have this corrected.

Al-Ko, however, have adopted a 'clever' solution to both of these problems in one go. The BTR5 axle on my van sits firmly on its bump stops at circa 70% of rated load i.e. around 1400kg in my case. This provides a beautifully level suspension in common with the myriad over vans on this axle but of course there is no suspension compression left to deal with bumps, even on an empty van. Hit even a cat's-eye and the only form of suspension that you have is provided by that wonderful invention, the pneumatic tyre. That the thousands of Bailey vans produced all sit at exactly the same level ride height with no further adjustment ever required is no coincidence - they're all sitting on their internal bump stops.

 

Now, given that at some point my axle's bushes are going to wear out and will need replacement (and clearly the timescale for that depends upon the efficacy or otherwise of the greasing regime mentioned above) the options are a complete axle replacement or an axle rebuild, both of which require removal of the complete axle assembly from the van. That may sound relatively easy but bear in mind that on the lowline chassis the axle itself forms part of the chassis and isn't a separate structure bolted on below. To remove the axle requires removal of approximatley 1/4 of the van's rear chassis, leaving the coachbuilt body unsupported - hardly a trivial exercise even if it is indeed possible.

 

It's a sorry state of affairs in my humble opinion and personally I think that the motorhome chassis options available from Sevel themselves provide a far better solution. Do think hard before you go down this alternative route.

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve928]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-10-28 5:24 PM

Dont forget you have a inner grease and a outer which is visible keep this one full of grease to keep water and dirt out. .

 

The 'outer grease' (nipple?) is something that I nor seemingly anyone else seems to know about, Monique, and the manual supplied with my axle only mentions the bottom pair of grease nipples that I referred to in my post above. Where is this outer grease location situated on the BTR axles, please?

[nimod]

Wokshop vidio --- http://www.fraserbrowneng.co.uk/index.php?c=al-ko-axle-repair

[keninpalamos]

Steve928 - 2016-10-28 6:42 PM

 

keninpalamos - 2016-10-27 4:14 PM

 

AlKo torsion bar suspension was designed by Wells Fargo and is about as good. (snip..)

 

It's refreshing to find at least one other person who doesn't think that Al-Ko axles are God's gift to motorhome owners but sadly I must first correct you; it was in fact designed by Heath-Robinson before being passed to Wells Fargo for further development. I can understand your confusion though :-)

 

Returning briefly to the subject of greasing, my axle doesn't seem to fit the description that you give of a grease nipple lying between the the swing arm bushes. Mine is the extra-wide rear track version with c. 300mm protrusion of the axle tube each side of the chassis. The grease nipple, however, remains inside the chassis rails and therefore sems to be well inboard of both bushes, almost as if they forgot to move it when the axle tube was extended, perish the thought. Despite regular greasing I've seen no evidence of grease finding its way outboard to the bushes and I suspect that the axle reconditioners linked-to in my first post are correct and that it's a pointless exercise.

 

Regarding torsion-bar suspension (note: genuine torsion bar and not torsion tube) in general I owned several cars so-equipped in the 80s, for example the wondefull Peugeot 205GTi. These did serve to highlight 2 weaknesses of the system which are confirmed by Googling the technology in general:

- torsion bars cannot easily provide progressive spiring rates and an acceptable balance between comfort and load carrying is hard to achieve.

- torsion bar suspension tends to suffer from inequal ride height across the axle and most manufacturers provide a means of correcting this, even if it resorts to removing the swing arm and relocating it on a different spline on the bars.

These failings were confirmed by my own car ownership; although supple and exhibiting superb handling the Peugeots would point their headlights at the sky if the rear seat was occupied and all suffered from inequal ride height and were returned under warranty to have this corrected.

Al-Ko, however, have adopted a 'clever' solution to both of these problems in one go. The BTR5 axle on my van sits firmly on its bump stops at circa 70% of rated load i.e. around 1400kg in my case. This provides a beautifully level suspension in common with the myriad over vans on this axle but of course there is no suspension compression left to deal with bumps, even on an empty van. Hit even a cat's-eye and the only form of suspension that you have is provided by that wonderful invention, the pneumatic tyre. That the thousands of Bailey vans produced all sit at exactly the same level ride height with no further adjustment ever required is no coincidence - they're all sitting on their internal bump stops.

 

Now, given that at some point my axle's bushes are going to wear out and will need replacement (and clearly the timescale for that depends upon the efficacy or otherwise of the greasing regime mentioned above) the options are a complete axle replacement or an axle rebuild, both of which require removal of the complete axle assembly from the van. That may sound relatively easy but bear in mind that on the lowline chassis the axle itself forms part of the chassis and isn't a separate structure bolted on below. To remove the axle requires removal of approximatley 1/4 of the van's rear chassis, leaving the coachbuilt body unsupported - hardly a trivial exercise even if it is indeed possible.

 

It's a sorry state of affairs in my humble opinion and personally I think that the motorhome chassis options available from Sevel themselves provide a far better solution. Do think hard before you go down this alternative route.

 

 

 

 

Sir, with reference to "William" Heath Robinson, I think you will find Wells Fargo were using a version of the torsion bar before referring back to a form of the semi elliptic leaf spring in 1861, the company having been formed on the 18th of March in the year of 1852. Heath Robinson was not born until the31st May 1872 so that would make it at least 11 years before Heath Robinson was born. The term "Heath Robinson" as we know it today was first used in 1912 ;-) Anyway Just to clear up were the grease nipples are located, Each swinging arm tube rotates in two bushes which are located to give support to each end of the inner tube inside the outer axle tube. The inner tube rotates so the swinging arm can move up and down. The Grease nipple for each set of bushes is located halfway between the two bushes for that rotating tube. So when grease is introduced it fills the small gap between the outer axle tube and the inner rotating tube and then if you are lucky when that gap is full is then forced between the two bushes surface and the inner rotating tube. If the grease manages to get between the bush closest to the swinging arm you should see it coming past the seal between the swinging arm and axle tube. So that is just one end of the Axle so there will be another grease nipple at the other end of the axle. Sometimes it is almost impossible to grease theses axles as the nipples can be hidden by bodywork, water tanks or even fitted on top of the axle tube. So basically as long as it rolls out the factory and lasts a year that's good enough.

[keninpalamos]

nimod - 2016-10-29 11:39 AM

 

Wokshop vidio --- http://www.fraserbrowneng.co.uk/index.php?c=al-ko-axle-repair

Much appreciated

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Sorry to be unclear on this its the fault of alko to disguise this detail. And the weakest point of the btr axle. you will never see a video how these axles are assembled in Louhans france from sub suppliers worldwide. These forged steel swing arms are quite short solid one piece machined.The rest of the axle is welded together in one piece brackets and the tube. In the ends two bushes are pressed in 80x80x75 at the start of the tube and on the end of the swing protruding. These bushes are splinted and one grease hole and follow standard bearing tech tolerance. In there the swing arm rotates under design loads about 1000 kg one arm over three torsion bars.They swing some degrees unloaded memory to max-load. Important: The play should be no more than 0.5 mm See dunlop air system how to measureThe torsion bars move freely in the hollow tube and are fixed with a axial bolt on the end passing the torsion barsCheck this detail because it is live saving. About the grease seals on one side only entering the tube inner and outer are like a Siamese twin.Check this detail or you lost a lot of grease outside and the rest goes in the other side in the innner tube if you use hydraulic air assist grease pumps. Always use a good hand gun. Alko has grease free axle pivots whit a needle bearing and one classic bush as above called btr ca you see it on the thicker part of the needle bearing why the hell they make it not standard???

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

And if you go for alko air alc-x2-x4 dont forget if you buy new you have grease free. Afterwards you have two options air whit your existing axle still to be greased or a new grease free axle The needle bearing does not fit your existing axle.

[747]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-10-29 6:54 PM

 

And if you go for alko air alc-x2-x4 dont forget if you buy new you have grease free. Afterwards you have two options air whit your existing axle still to be greased or a new grease free axle The needle bearing does not fit your existing axle.

 

My two axles do not have any grease nipples fitted. I would have thought that a needle bearing would still need some routine greasing. Can you confirm that they are greased for life please? I did contact Alko UK about this but they never got back to me and did not seem interested.

[keninpalamos]

747 - 2016-10-29 7:11 PM

 

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-10-29 6:54 PM

 

And if you go for alko air alc-x2-x4 dont forget if you buy new you have grease free. Afterwards you have two options air whit your existing axle still to be greased or a new grease free axle The needle bearing does not fit your existing axle.

 

My two axles do not have any grease nipples fitted. I would have thought that a needle bearing would still need some routine greasing. Can you confirm that they are greased for life please? I did contact Alko UK about this but they never got back to me and did not seem interested.

Par for the course as far as AlKo is concerned. Use the link that Nimod gave and contact Fraser Brown Eng ltd for the information you require

[747]

I cannot see Fraser Brown being much help Ken. They probably don't see any 'grease free' axles, unless they have been abused by overloading.

 

I must just accept that they are greased for life. It is not a big problem as I have had my van on a weighbridge and they run well within the maximum rated weight.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Very good question The fact that the grease nipples are not there means life time maintenance free called the Ca axle. That axle is standard fitted when you buy a new motorhome whit the flwg axle options: 1/Ca 2/Alc 3/X2/ X3. Extra price Ca axle is 2000 euro. have no clue why alko goes that way Weaker torsion bars does not mean that the swing arm is relaxed. Insist that alko Uk send you full axle details in cut away of both versions Just a needle bearing and still one classic bush and no grease gun? And at the same time ask them the reasons of broken torsion bars. Good luck.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Fraser brown being a magic axle repairer which brought to light by me some years ago has less expierence on the Amc axle being much better than the Bt.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Another frustating thing is that the plate shows only axle loads. The rest is on axle itself. What means Bt, Btr ? I go for goldsmitt air like niessmann-bischoff on their alko chassis and not alko air. But that could be they belong to the same group Hymer. And both are located in Polch germany.

[Derek Uzzell]

The subject of Al-Ko AMC chassis greasing has been discussed regularly over the years on on-line motorhome forums (and in motorhome magazine articles).

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=alko+chassis+grease+points

 

Al-Ko’s own advice is in the “Maintenance” section of this handbook document

 

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/edit/files/handbooks/amc-handbook.pdf

 

‘Maintenance-free’ AMC-chassis axles are likely to be less common on motorhomes than the grease-nipple variety, but their existence was mentioned in this 2013 thread

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Alko-Motorhome-Chassis-Rear-Axle-Lubrication-Inspection-/32668/

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Yes its ongoing. Just pump your axle full of grease. Nobody seems to understand as long as AL-KO does not open this mystery because of a insufficient design about the greasing proven by the fact that in Germany. their home market every day AMC axles need to be repaired due to lack of grease. The ball lies in alko to make an end on this topic.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

In case the above is relating due to overloading your torsion bars you better go for leaf springs and a real bump stop to prevent holes in your chassis rails.