jetsets Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 HI We are considering getting a small car and trailer to tow it ( please no 'why tow' comments.. But we also have a brilliant low level thule tow-ball mounted bike rack , as we find lifting the E Bikes up to the rather high rear bike rack on our big Bessacarr a bit of a heave - leading to back problems, the fiamma rack is very high and not too bad for normal bikes but e bikes weigh quite a lot more even when the batteries or out. SO we were looking initially for a way attaching our thule tow ball mounted rack somewhere on the trailer - I saw this done on a continental site last year where there was a towball mounted somewhere inside the A Frame on a trailer so a towball mounted bike rack could be added. A quick chat with a couple of the smart trailer makers in this country has revealed that mods like this can upset the nose weight and balance and also as the trailers are type approved they cant be made like this at the factory. Anyone else solved this problem? I know you can get a tow hitch carrier for bikes that still allows towing but again getting the nose weight right with 35 Kg of bikes plus a trailers nose weight could be an issue Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I fitted a fairly heavy steel fabrication to the A frame of my car trailer to carry a couple of spare wheels and to provide a mounting for a hand winch, so it turned out to have quite an impact on the fore-and-aft balance of the trailer and without the car loaded the nose weight is very heavy. Fortunately the trailer (an Ifor Williams CT136) is longer than the car we tow, so I can mount the car further back, to recover a safe tow hitch weight once both car and spare wheel carrier are loaded. No obvious impact on the way the loaded trailer tows once loaded in this way. I don't think I'm doing anything illegal by bolting the spare wheel carrier on to the tailer separately from the car - it's just a way of securing part of the load. Could your towed car take a towbar, then you could mount the bikes on to that using your rack - and then gain the use of the car for taking the bikes for a more distant cycling outing? Failing that could you mount the bikes on a car roof rack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsets Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 hi Stuart, thanks for the reply, All good info.. Unfortunately its likely to be a smart car, with soft top, , although you can fit a tow bar to a smart car - from smart tow,- as long as you don't use it to tow anything on the highway, and again its got a limited payload, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 This is a bit more complex than normal because of the Car you have chosen, which as everyone knows has a rear engine/gearbox. In theory, that suggests that if you drive the Car on forwards there will be an excess of weight on the rear of the trailer which will NEED to be balanced by extra weight at the front of the Trailer A Frame/Trailer front bed. Two 30kg bikes might not be enough!!!. In normal circumstances the weight of the car engine should always be at the front of the Trailer to reduce any pendulum effect. So a Porsche 911 would be loaded on a trailer backwards, as should a Smart Car. But then again a Smart is so light and short, not sure it would matter, unless the car was a long way back? I suggest a Smart Car on forwards with Bikes on the front of the Trailer bed would be pretty well balanced, particularly so if you adopted Stuarts idea of mounting the Motorhome spare wheel on the Trailer front A-Frame. This would not only balance and offset the weight of the 'rear engine', but additionally removes weight from the Motorhome to compensate for the 'extra weight' on the Tow Ball that would normally be deducted from your allowance. Maybe also mount a Smart Spare wheel on the trailer front as well to get a bit more weight up front above the Tow ball? How about mounting the Spare wheels on a sliding fore/aft A frame track to get perfect balance on your Noseweight scales? Maybe even an additional lockable 'Tool box' on the A frame, so you can take other things from the Motorhome to allow fine tuning of the weight, like heavy tools, Wheel Jack, etc which again will also claw back some weight allowance? Remember that any heavy weight you move from the MH onto the Trailer is taken off the Motorhome axles weights/load but added to the total 'Train weight'. The total Train Weight is a much higher allowance as weight moved to the trailer becomes 'rolling weight' not direct weight on the MH axles/tyres. This weight obviously then contributes to the Trailer weight/axle limits, but with the very light weight of a Smart, that should not be an issue unless you move the Kitchen, Batteries.........., To get the nose weight right, just put bathroom scales on a piece of 12mm Ply under the A frame tow ball socket (scales often need a smooth surface to work properly, hence the Ply). Then cut a piece of 2 x 2 to go under the A frame Tow socket, resting on the scales (you need a block of wood to spread the load on the scales). The bathroom scales will then tell you the nose weight. Major adjustments can be done by moving the Smart car back/forward. I would guess that with such a light load on a relatively short Trailer a Nose weight of between 30 - 50 kgs should give a good balance between enough weight on the Tow Ball without impacting the MH driveablity/weight allowance? You might find that the Smart weight is so biased to the rear, that a special Bike bracket made to sit behind the Tow Ball would also work. Especially with a sliding Motorhome Spare Wheel carrier on the Trailer front to fine tune the Balance? Maybe all you need is 'Steel frame padding' to shift the tow ball back from Motorhome rear an inch or two? Either way we would suggest an Alko extended neck tow ball rather than a standard Tow Ball. But obviously this is still weight on the MH, so needs to be deducted from the Payload. Putting this weight on the Trailer would give you back a fair bit of Payload on your present circumstances? Obviously when travelling without the bikes you would be best advised to reverse the Car on? I used to trailer Citroen HY vans which although only around 1,400kgs had a very heavy Cast Iron engine and Cast Iron Cased Gearbox at the front of the van. While two of us could just about lift a 1970's Ford 2 litre engine, try as we might, 3 of us could not lift a Citroen Hy 1.9 engine which had it's roots in the 1930's. The HY van Gearbox was just about manageable by two people, but Richard could pick up a Ford Cortina gearbox on his own. Roughly the HY van engine and box were double the weight of Ford Cortina engine/box. This meant, in theory, that the Nose weight of the trailer loaded with an H van would be too high. But it wasn't. Just moved the HY van on the Trailer back an inch or two. A twin wheel trailer has a much more 'neutral' Nose weight. So a twin wheel trailer is another option. More stable, but a pig to reverse and manoeuvre by hand due to the axle drag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Allan, All the trailers dedicated to carrying Smart cars that I have seen have the axle located further towards the rear than a conventional trailer to counter the weight of the rear engine. It actually makes them look 'wrong' as they then look unbalanced but... Google for images of Smart trailers and you should see what I mean. This does mean that Ian (jetsets) will still have to be very careful how he adds any extra weight to his trailer to not upset its balance. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Keith, thank you, but a special Smart Trailer will be too small to take the Car and around 2' of bikes on the bed in front of the car. As I said above, "with Bikes on the front of the Trailer bed". The Bikes won't be able to go across the A Frame or there may be contact with the towing vehicle on tight turns. This was assuming an upgrade to a conventional light weight trailer of around 10' x 6' 1". Such as Woodford. Like in Stuart's example, a longer Trailer also allows the car to move forward/back for balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 A Smart car on a purpose made (usually two axle) trailer is a compact solution but if you haven't already committed to a Smart car I suggest you consider alternatives. We have a Toyota iQ which is almost as small as a Smart car but wider, so inside it feels like a much bigger car and suits my OH and I, both being horizontally challenged, very well. It has a proper gearbox too. A motorhoming friend who had a Smart car, having seen our outfit, has just decided to switch to an iQ. It makes a very good shopping/dog moving/nipping about car indeed. We did try to seat four in it once but it's really a two seater unless it's small grandchildren in the back. I ended up buying a used, standard, single axle Ifor Williams lightweight car transporter trailer, designed primarily for Lotus Sevens and the like, because it was cheap (under £800) but it turned out to be very versatile, easily takes the wider iQ and the extra length is no disadvantage at all - indeed it make the thing easier to reverse. I load the car by reversing it on (carefully!) to get the balance right because the trailer axle is positioned well back. Amazing that two trailer wheels will take a four wheel car but the trailer tyres are HD, inflated to 95 psi. A single axle trailer is also much easier to wheel around. Ifor Williams trailers are the industry workhorses, sell easily second hand and keep their value well. I got a cheeky bargain and expect to make a profit when I sell. The iQ is a depreciating asset of course, especially now they've stopped making them, but ours is still faultless after six years and very cheap to run - so we'll keep it for the foreseeable future as our second, dual purpose car. I keep thinking I'll buy a Mazda MX5 to put on the trailer and enjoy as a Summer treat but I suspect the OH would be less than impressed with that idea. She is very fond of the iQ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Stuart, I have bought and sold around 7 second hand trailers over the years, all at a major saving on new price. So I agree with you that buying second hand is a good option. Because of their simplicity, they are very easy to fix/maintain. I found that if a Trailer looked right, perfect tyres (check carefully for cracking and look at the Date stamp) and was clearly looked after, it was almost always a good one. If it looked poor, it almost always was, with wheel bearings gone, tyres beyond their 'sell by', head couplings tired, and tired rubber indespension, etc This is especially true in this 10 - 12' Trailer size which are often bought by Track Day owners, Motorhome owners, etc. so looked after. As opposed to the bigger trailers used by Hire companies that get a hard life and kerbed wheels. A single axle trailer will comfortably handle a 1300kg car. Something like a Suzuki Alto, Smart, etc. will be a little over half that so generally a very stable tow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 My trailer is rated at a gross weight of 1,400kg so even without my heavy spare wheel carrier, it's probably only good for a car with kerb weight under 1,000 or 1,100kg; the trailer itself is quite heavy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Stuart, that is not that different to the Woodford Lightweight which isn't as highly rated as I thought. The advert says up to a 1500kg car : http://www.woodfordtrailers.com/lightweight but when you investigate further, that is for the twin axle option. 980kg load is the limit for the 10' x 6' 1" Singles at £1,500, only £60 more expensive than a 8' x 5' 5" Smart Trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Trailers are to some extent trailers and there isn't that much difference in the designs of the different manaufacturers. Although local small-time trailer makers also come into the picture too, they all make roughly similar trailers. But I have come across trailers with design or manufacturing weaknesses, so it does pay to check carefully. You can however rely on Ifor Williams trailers as first class products. Ifor Williams, who as far as I know still runs the Company, is reported to have said that he doesn't mind anyone trying to copy his designs because they will struggle to make a trailer of the same quality for the same money - because his very large volumes and production system refined over many, many years make them as cheaply as can be done for a good quality product. His trailers are certainly robust and durable, which is why they have such a good standing in the market, keep their price and sell second hand so easily. They are not the only good quality trailers you can buy but if you don't know trailers, at least buying an Ifor Williams guarantees you a safe bet. I believe they have a fan club - perhaps I should join! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetsets Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Sorry for not keeping up, I have decided to try just bikes on the bike rack, no car no trailer and see how we go this year. Many thanks for the advice given here to all those who replied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.