TheTravellingRooster Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Hi to you all out there. Has anyone ever had to take their dealer to court under the terms of The Sale of Goods Act? I ask this question with specific reference to an issue/fault that is not being resolve,has not been resolved or especially if you are being told by your dealer that you have no claim,indeed because that is what the manufacturer of your caravan has conveyed to you through the dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Difficult to comment on this without having more information such as time scale, new/secondhand van/warranty conditions met etc...........so many variables to ponder so more information would possibly elicit more specific/informative comments/responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTravellingRooster Posted November 1, 2013 Author Share Posted November 1, 2013 RogerC - 2013-11-01 11:11 PMDifficult to comment on this without having more information such as time scale, new/secondhand van/warranty conditions met etc...........so many variables to ponder so more information would possibly elicit more specific/informative comments/responses. Hi Roger. That was quick,I just caught the alert as I was shutting down for some shut-eye. The question is around a very what if scenario around two similar manufacturers caravans Scenario 1. A brand new caravan bought that develops a major issue/problem. The caravan goes back to the dealer from whom it was purchased and the owner is eventually told that the issue/problem is not covered by the terms of the warranty as the damage/issue/problem is as a result of conditions during usage namely towing. The damage is as a result of potholes and kerbing. The caravan wheels nor the tyres show any such evidence. The caravan is a mere 14months old and otherwise it is in first class order. The problem having only been discovered during a washing and valeting of the exterior bodywork. Scenario 2. The second caravan is bought from a dealer of the brand/make and is apparently immaculate but 3yrs old. It comes with a full service record that is all stamped and verified by signature of the service manager. The caravan also has a transferable warranty that covers a 6yr period from new for the body. The new owner then discovers an issue with the body during a wash & valet exercise and consults with the dealer that it was purchased from. He is then informed as per the decision in scenario 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 If you GOOGLE-search on "sale of goods act caravan" (omitting the quotes), you'll retrieve a good deal of stuff. There are also useful advice and facts sheets here http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/sale-of-goods-act/ http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/your_world/consumer_affairs/consumer_fact_sheets_index.htm This 2009 forum thread discussed guarantees http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/What-force-has-a-guarantee-/17746/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTravellingRooster Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-11-02 7:40 AMIf you GOOGLE-search on "sale of goods act caravan" (omitting the quotes), you'll retrieve a good deal of stuff.There are also useful advice and facts sheets herehttp://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/sale-of-goods-act/http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/your_world/consumer_affairs/consumer_fact_sheets_index.htmThis 2009 forum thread discussed guaranteeshttp://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/What-force-has-a-guarantee-/17746/ Hi Derek Thank you for the effort that you have gone to BUT I did not ask the question about how to go about it. I simply posted a rhetorical heading and then opened with a question. I am not suggesting that it is me that has a valid issue/complaint,I am interested in knowing if anyone has had to invoke the Sale of Goods Act and possibly get information as to their outcome. I followed this up with a reply and two different scenarios. Both of those were using caravans from the same manufacturer but at different ages and both within the 6yrs body warranty period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 I'll assume that this relates to your earlier July thread!! I would also assume that there is some personal interest - all a bit cloak and daggers to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 The matter is discussed (at considerable length) on the Caravan Talk and Practical Caravan forums. (When I responded I was aware of a few instances where a motorcaravanner had chosen to invoke the Sale of Goods Act in an attempt to resolve a dispute with a dealership. As each case was unique and had no obvious relevance to the scenarios that were described in this thread, mentioning them would have been pointless.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 TheTravellingRooster - 2013-11-01 10:44 PMHi to you all out there.Has anyone ever had to take their dealer to court under the terms of The Sale of Goods Act?...........................John, the undoubted answer to your above question is yes. However, in the absence of relevant facts, it is impossible for anyone to comment in greater detail. Your subsequent examples are stated to be hypothetical. If you can drop the hypotheses, and quote the relevant facts (without identifying the parties involved), including adequate details of the faults in each case, it may be possible to make useful comments.If you are unhappy doing this, your best course will be to follow-up on the links Derek posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 There's plenty of detail in the Caravan Talk and Practical Caravan forums. Easiest thing to do, I think, would be to GOOGLE on "travellingrooster skin" as well as "thetravellingrooster skin" - that should pick up the relevant threads. Zorte ona! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTravellingRooster Posted November 28, 2013 Author Share Posted November 28, 2013 Hi to those of you that are following this topic. My topic heading was a general one and not specific to the image that I posted albeit the image is but one of several examples that are related to one specific caravan manufacturer. The image is of the crack/tear/split on my caravan,it is but only one of the visible affects that would all appear to be caused/linked by a common problem. The point that I was and I am still making is that if you are being fobbed off by your dealer to the effect that the manufacturer is not accepting any liability or taking ownership of an issue/fault/defect/shoddy work/bits falling off or failures,it is the dealer that is the one that resolves the issues. If you are getting nowhere,consult the CAB and follow their advice. If your caravan was bought new and has a correct and signed service record or it was bought as a pre-owned caravan and bought within the manufacturers warranty period and the warranty was transferred and the service record was maintained then the issue is with the dealer. The Sale of Goods Act directs you the purchaser back to the point of sale,The Dealer. If you read the posts,now some 395+ that are under the heading of: Unusual Dent, Crack Beside Front Privacy Windowthey will give you a flavour of some of the issues and difficulties that the forum members have and are still experiencing. Indeed,if you Copy & Paste the above topic heading into Google it will or should be the top of the listing. Once you are into the forum (it is best to become a signed up member) you will be able to see the extent of the issues that are related to this particular one. The issue of complaints about shoddy work/build and design over sites is not unique to just this one manufacturer and it is my considered opinion that there are not enough owners that have read and understood the Sale of Goods Act. The issues actually do go far beyond the powers behind the Sale of Goods Act albeit they would need pursuing through a different channel. In some and possibly many more than are at first thought,the manufacturers,indeed the perpetrators/creators of the issues in the first instance are actually hiding behind the Sale of Goods Act and the dealers taking all of the flack and the wrath of the purchasing public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Not sure this is going anywhere. The issue itself is relatively simple. If you have bought goods that are faulty, or develop faults that can be related to poor initial workmanship or materials, within six years from purchase, the legal obligation to rectify those faults lies with the seller. His actual obligations diminish over that time, so he is likely to have to do less after five years than he would after one year, depending on circumstances and the reasonably anticipated service life of the purchase. A guarantee/warranty is offered by a manufacturer. It is non-contractual, in that the buyer has no contract with the manufacturer. The only relevant contract is that between buyer and seller. So, the warranty is, in effect, a promise to rectify certain faults under certain conditions, in accordance with the terms stated in the warranty. In the case of a dispute pursued thought the courts with a seller, the outcome will be determined by the court, but will not be directly enforced by the court. If the seller refuses to comply with the court's verdict, the buyer must apply separately to the court for enforcement. In determining its verdict, the court will take into account the reasonableness of both plaint and defence, as well as any material facts. When determining whether a defect will be rectified under warranty, the manufacturer is the sole arbiter, and has the final say. Reasonableness is not a factor, though a manufacturer may apply the concept should they so choose. Taking all the above into account, the correct procedure seems reasonably clear. Where a defect arises a buyer should turn first to the seller. If the seller refuses to recognise the defect, the buyer may have to obtain a second opinion as to whether it is, in fact, a defect, or merely a characteristic of the product that he finds disagreeable. If it is held to be a defect the evidence to this effect should again be presented to the seller, with a written request for him to action remedy. If he does nothing, and the buyer considers the defect sufficietly serious, he should take legal advice in preparation for court action. It is not unknown for minds to change following receipt of a solicitor's letter! If the dealer agrees that there is a defect he will refer it to the manufacturer under warranty. If the manufacturer accepts, he will authorise and pay for the repairs under warranty. If the manufacturer rejects the warranty claim, it is for the dealer to make amends at his own expense, and pursue his argument with the manufacturer. If the dealer claims his hands are tied by the terms of the manufacturer's warranty, he is wrong in law. If he uses this argument, the buyer is at liberty to take the seller to court for judgement. The legal procedure requires the buyer to serve proper, written, notification of a claimed defect upon the seller. It is reasonable to make the notification verbally in the first instance, to see if the seller's initial response is helpful and reasonable. If the response is to prevaricate or refuse to consider the claim, this initial approach should then be referred to, and the date mentioned, in subsequent correspondence. Claimants must remain reasonable in their demands, and the onus is upon them to pursue their claim with clarity, and to supply adequate supporting evidence. It will never be easy to pursue a claim to conclusion through legal channels. It is not supposed to be, as the procedure is intended to dissuade people from bringing frivolous claims, and/or clogging the courts with claims that have vindictive motives. It is far better to deal in person with the seller, and to seek to negotiate/persuade them to an acceptable and reasonable remedy, than to launch legal proceedings. In doing this, it is essential to remain firm and polite, and not to issue threats or insults which may seriously damage a plaintiff's case if it later progresses to court. The above is based upon my understanding of the present legal position, and reflects the general advice of Trading Standards and Citizens' Advice as I understand it. Each case will be unique, and must be pursued as such. I have no legal qualification, so respond purely as a layman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTravellingRooster Posted November 29, 2013 Author Share Posted November 29, 2013 Hi Brian. Picking up on your opening statement :-Not sure this is going anywhere. My original intention was not for it to go specifically anywhere. It was simply posted as an awareness exercise for many many contributors to the various forums of which this is but one albeit many caravanner's are active or log on as guests and non contributors to a number of forums. Some are obviously superior to others. There is one forum in particular that would appear to have a number of members that have had various issues with their caravans and have seemingly not necessarily got all of the requirements in place for the pursuit of their particular problem. The most important consideration when presenting a caravan with an issue that would be a warranty claim --- fix is not unnaturally;a completely up-to-date stamped and signed service record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Well, yes. First law of the jungle, carefully read the warranty. Second law of the jungle, carefully read the manuals. :-) Sadly, some leave both until they have a problem. However, I understand there is no obligation to rely upon a manufacturer's warranty. Clearly, if one doesn't comply with its terms, one voids the warranty. However, I'm not clear what happens if one does this, and then tries to sue a dealer over a defect. I suspect a court may take this into account in its judgement, and might possibly reduce the value of any award, to reflect any additional cost the buyer's actions might have imposed on the seller. Vexatious? As I say, I'm not a lawyer, so who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTravellingRooster Posted November 29, 2013 Author Share Posted November 29, 2013 Hi Brian. The real problems occur when a claim under warranty is denied by the dealer and on the grounds that the manufacturer blames the issue/problem/damage as being caused by factors that let them off the hook,indeed they will not/refuse to take ownership of the problem. In the case of the image that I have posted,there is very compelling reason to believe that it is caused by flexing and twisting of the chassis. This cracking/tearing/splitting of the aluminium skin is but one example of the damages that are beginning to display on and or about the caravan bodies. The issue around taking the dealer to court when all else fails and they claim that the manufacturer has revoked any claim and therefore will not take ownership nor be held in any way responsible leaves only one possible course of action and this would depend upon exactly what is the desired outcome. The small claims court against the dealer or a independent and initially a costly case against the manufacturer,this by necessity would need to be back-up with Expert Evidence from the likes of an engineer or some other knowledgeable body and supported by other examples of the issue/issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 TheTravellingRooster - 2013-11-29 5:44 PM..................The small claims court against the dealer or a independent and initially a costly case against the manufacturer,this by necessity would need to be back-up with Expert Evidence from the likes of an engineer or some other knowledgeable body and supported by other examples of the issue/issues.I think it impractical to bring a case against a manufacturer under consumer legislation. It would in any case be a game for an extremely rich individual. However, there is no need to do so as, if the goods are defecitve, it is the seller who is legally liable. The evidence required will inevitably cost some money to produce. This becomes a cost, as are his legal costs, that should be added to the plaintiff's claim. There is no need to present evidence of other similar events, the case will be between one buyer and one seller, so evidence that the fault is due to a known manufacturing defect is unlikely to help. The point of the case is to put the buyer into the position he should have held before the defect arose. That may involve repair to the buyer's resaonable satisfaction, payment of compensation if the defect cannot be repaired, or in extreme cases, for example where a failure to repair would leave the item unusable, the supply, again to the buyer's reasonable satisfaction, of a replacement of similar value and type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTravellingRooster Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 Hi Brian. As I have previously stated and if not on this forum then very definitely on others,my caravan is a non starter in respect of any redress with/against the manufacturer.I am becoming more and more aware of the potential complexities of an anomalies that lie behind any redress with manufacturers. Indeed there is a growing feeling that manufacturers are actually hiding behind the Sale of Goods Act and letting the dealers take all of the flack.More fool the dealers for continuing to promote/sell the products of such manufacturers. I am actually referring to issues that are and have been very very clearly the direct causes of major and recurring faults/issues,not least of all the cracking/tearing/splitting of the aluminium skins. Related issues are bulging of side panels,splitting of the aluminium skins without an edge to offer a start;but simply appearing in the mid sections of the panels. These are all clearly stress and flex related. What makes the cracking/tearing/splitting even more of an issue is that it has been getting reported since late 2001/early 2002 when there was a model change and reconfigurations of the floor plans and the entrance door being positioned forward of the axle/axles. People in the trade that I have spoken to have all reported that it has been a long standing issue and the manufacturer has constantly denied it and repeatedly refused to take ownership of it. The problem is not a long term fixable one and those that have carried out repairs will not guarantee them because they will eventually return,the underlying cause is still present and indeed the problems are still being reported with certain models/variants as late as 2012 build dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Fortunately never had to go down this route. However I have a feeling that no manufacturer will deliberately try to avoid liabilities if the situation was that bad. After all they do not really need a lot of bad publicity even if it is only internet gossip. However, if they feel they have a good case then they will obviously try all ways possible to either put you off, or frighten you off. One trick is to get any case in a Small Claims Court 'upgraded' to a higher Court. Then the legal fees are of course much higher and the final costs will scare many people off. Legal Aid may not be available in these sort of cases. It is all too easy to end up with not only your shirt on the table but the house as well, if you lose. If you have a friend who is the producer of Crimewatch or similar then that is a very good bargaining chip. Sometimes I as a mug feel that life is too short and sometimes just accept that I have been screwed. Cut the loss as much as possible and move on is sometimes the best way to sleep at nights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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