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2016 referendum was illegal
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userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 8 March 2019 11:18 AM
Subject: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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At the recent court heaaring on 21st Feb...May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal and would that it have been voided by the courts had it been a mandatory referendum but since it is only advisory only May can void it....however, she has not which makes her pretty corrupt and up to no good. In order to restore democracy there needs to be a legal refeerendum with rules ensuring only the truth is told. Given the British mass media who all publish total fake news on the EU I'm not sure how this could be achieved but it needs to be if the UK is to restore it's standing in the world. At present the world knows this referendum is illegal and May is pushing it and therefore showing the UK to be utterly corrupt.
userantony1969
Posted: 8 March 2019 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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userFast Pat
Posted: 8 March 2019 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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antony1969 - 2019-03-08 11:49 AM

Jesus


You turning to God now? Better cover all the bases - Jehovah, Mohamad etc etc
userFast Pat
Posted: 8 March 2019 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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There is a reason why the Tories dont want to overturn the illegal result:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-under-attack-after-tax-haven-donations-hrj29tshw

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/is-the-anti-tax-avoidance-directive-the-reason-the-rich-want-out-of-eu-1-5669763
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-03-08 11:58 AM

There is a reason why the Tories dont want to overturn the illegal result:



Because the majority of the voting public voted for it ........

userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 8 March 2019 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Indeed and not only the Tories but the newspaper owners who spent months spreading false news before and during the referendum and continue to do so. Of course the masses believed the riduculuous stories in the papers and on the Tory run BBC...the UK has no reliable media outlet these days which makes this country little better than North Korea or Russia. There was no coverage of the Court findings on 21st February of the illegal nature of the 2016 referendum nor of the fact that Theresa May's lawyer admitted that she knows it is illegal. The population are being brain washed on a daily bases but are totally unaware of it. The UK can no longer be described as a democratic nation until democracy is restored first with a legal referendum then with impartiality being restored to the BBC by ensuring the board of executives are totally detached from political parties.

Edited by HarveyHeaven 2019-03-08 12:10 PM
userFast Pat
Posted: 8 March 2019 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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pelmetman - 2019-03-08 12:07 PM

Fast Pat - 2019-03-08 11:58 AM

There is a reason why the Tories dont want to overturn the illegal result:



Because the majority of the voting public voted for it ........



You still have'nt answered this question:

And if you weren't so worried that the public have changed their minds you wouldn't be running so scared of a second vote - now that we know what the actual leave package looks like.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 12:19 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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21 days to go ..............and the Remoaner brigade are going into temper tantrum overdrive .........
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 March 2019 2:18 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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HarveyHeaven - 2019-03-08 12:09 PM



Indeed and not only the Tories but the newspaper owners who spent months spreading false news before and during the referendum and continue to do so. Of course the masses believed the riduculuous stories in the papers and on the Tory run BBC...the UK has no reliable media outlet these days which makes this country little better than North Korea or Russia. There was no coverage of the Court findings on 21st February of the illegal nature of the 2016 referendum nor of the fact that Theresa May's lawyer admitted that she knows it is illegal. The population are being brain washed on a daily bases but are totally unaware of it. The UK can no longer be described as a democratic nation until democracy is restored first with a legal referendum then with impartiality being restored to the BBC by ensuring the board of executives are totally detached from political parties.

Harvey, it would help understanding enormously if you could please post a link to your source for that court verdict. I, for one, would love to read it.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-08 2:18 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-03-08 12:09 PM



Indeed and not only the Tories but the newspaper owners who spent months spreading false news before and during the referendum and continue to do so. Of course the masses believed the riduculuous stories in the papers and on the Tory run BBC...the UK has no reliable media outlet these days which makes this country little better than North Korea or Russia. There was no coverage of the Court findings on 21st February of the illegal nature of the 2016 referendum nor of the fact that Theresa May's lawyer admitted that she knows it is illegal. The population are being brain washed on a daily bases but are totally unaware of it. The UK can no longer be described as a democratic nation until democracy is restored first with a legal referendum then with impartiality being restored to the BBC by ensuring the board of executives are totally detached from political parties.

Harvey, it would help understanding enormously if you could please post a link to your source for that court verdict. I, for one, would love to read it.


So would I ............

Coz if it were true the mainstream media would have been all over it like a rash .........

userpottypam
Posted: 8 March 2019 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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Here is the link:
https://pressreleases.responsesource.com/news/97179/court-of-appeal-refuses-permission-to-appeal-following-uk-in/
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 2:53 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Where does it say "May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal"? ........

userpottypam
Posted: 8 March 2019 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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I don’t usually get involved in these discussions but I am sick and tired of people saying the 2016 Referendum was advisory. The following is a quote from the Government’s leaflet that was sent to every household in the country:

“This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide”

In what way can that be taken as advisory.

Might help those who say we didn’t know what we were voting for to read the leaflet. Not going to post a link, I found it easily enough, so can they.

I am not arguing for or against but please keep to facts!

Edited by pottypam 2019-03-08 3:28 PM
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 3:38 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-08 2:53 PM



Where does it say "May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal"? ........



I can't see that either Dave. I've looked at law databases on line and the decision made consequent of the hearing on 21 February is not yet published. Only the original decision of Mr Justice Ouseley made back in December 2018 is available. He decided that the case was out of time and in any event that it had no merit. He his widely respected in legal circles and often described as having "a brain the size of a planet". But then the populist view is that a good judge depends upon whether you agree with him or her.

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-08 3:39 PM
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 March 2019 4:32 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Certainly looks like she knew.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2019/02/27/as-theresa-may-loses-control-over-brexit-her-lawyer-admits-the-eu-referendum-was-illegal/

and

https://twitter.com/RobertCPalmer13/status/1098913421519663104

As for the referendum only being advisory that is true.

The thing about this is that if the referendum was binding, it would be declared unlawful by the courts. But as it is only advisory (ie. a glorified opinion poll that carries no legal weight) the courts cannot intervene.

Morally however TM knowing it was illegal should have been at the least a valid reason for another referendum which may or may not still happen.

Just because some polly said we will implement whatever you decide means nothing.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Thank you (I assume ) Pam. The 21 Feb EU Challenge case. When I read Harvey's post, I thought he was referring to a new case.
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:31 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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And for those who have both the time and the inclination there is a video recording of the entire proceedings conducted on 21.2.2019 available on the website below so it is possible to find out what James Eadie QC actually said,

https://www.judiciary.uk/publications/wilson-others-v-the-prime-minister-respondent-1-and-the-electoral-commission-respondent-2/

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-08 5:33 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:46 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-08 2:53 PM



Where does it say "May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal"? ........

Her own lawyer Sir James Eadie QC said so;

However, according to law lecturer and jurist Rob Palmer, first Treasury counsel Sir James Eadie QC, acting for the prime minister, admitted that May was fully aware of the unlawful aspect of the referendum campaign: 'The true position is that the PM is well aware of the notorious facts...well published facts ...of the EC findings, fact of an appeal, police investigations, ICO, DCMS committees. All properly done...& it it perfectly obvious that the PM has decided to carry on'.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2019/02/27/as-theresa-may-loses-control-over-brexit-her-lawyer-admits-the-eu-referendum-was-illegal/

https://twitter.com/A50Challenge/status/1103309618279784449



Edited by Bulletguy 2019-03-08 5:48 PM
userantony1969
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-03-08 5:46 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-08 2:53 PM



Where does it say "May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal"? ........

Her own lawyer Sir James Eadie QC said so;

However, according to law lecturer and jurist Rob Palmer, first Treasury counsel Sir James Eadie QC, acting for the prime minister, admitted that May was fully aware of the unlawful aspect of the referendum campaign: 'The true position is that the PM is well aware of the notorious facts...well published facts ...of the EC findings, fact of an appeal, police investigations, ICO, DCMS committees. All properly done...& it it perfectly obvious that the PM has decided to carry on'.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2019/02/27/as-theresa-may-loses-control-over-brexit-her-lawyer-admits-the-eu-referendum-was-illegal/

https://twitter.com/A50Challenge/status/1103309618279784449



Jesus
userBulletguy
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:06 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:31 PM

And for those who have both the time and the inclination there is a video recording of the entire proceedings conducted on 21.2.2019 available on the website below so it is possible to find out what James Eadie QC actually said,

https://www.judiciary.uk/publications/wilson-others-v-the-prime-minister-respondent-1-and-the-electoral-commission-respondent-2/

Just tried listening to some of that Veronica. I notice a poster asked if there was a written transcript available and can understand why as the audio levels are seriously lacking.
userantony1969
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:12 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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userFast Pat
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:12 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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pottypam - 2019-03-08 3:27 PM

I don’t usually get involved in these discussions but I am sick and tired of people saying the 2016 Referendum was advisory. The following is a quote from the Government’s leaflet that was sent to every household in the country:

“This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide”

In what way can that be taken as advisory.

Might help those who say we didn’t know what we were voting for to read the leaflet. Not going to post a link, I found it easily enough, so can they.

I am not arguing for or against but please keep to facts!


The actual legislation enacting the referendum states in the introduction that it was only advisory.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-nigel-farage-forced-to-admit-the-eu-referendum-was-only-advisory-a7401151.html

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

userantony1969
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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userpottypam
Posted: 8 March 2019 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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The actual legislation enacting the referendum states in the introduction that it was only advisory.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-nigel-farage-forced-to-admit-the-eu-referendum-was-only-advisory-a7401151.html

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/


Have read the first link and the introduction to the legislation and in that I cannot see advisory at all. Can you quote the section number? In the commons briefing it does mention advisory but even if it was advisory, the Government surely, is justified in carrying out the wish of the majority of those who voted.

And it wasn’t some “polly” who said the result would be implemented, it was the Government.
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-03-08 6:06 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:31 PM

And for those who have both the time and the inclination there is a video recording of the entire proceedings conducted on 21.2.2019 available on the website below so it is possible to find out what James Eadie QC actually said,

https://www.judiciary.uk/publications/wilson-others-v-the-prime-minister-respondent-1-and-the-electoral-commission-respondent-2/

Just tried listening to some of that Veronica. I notice a poster asked if there was a written transcript available and can understand why as the audio levels are seriously lacking.


I can hear it OK on my laptop with my speakers attached.
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-08 6:18 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

No, it has got everything to do with democracy. The points in issue was whether TM acted in accordance with the law, and more importantly whether she acted reasonably. The claimaints maintained that the consequence of TM triggering Article 50 before the investigation into the unlawful conduct was complete was not reasonable because the offences committed undermined democracy by skewing/influencing the vote. Whilst TM was not bound by statute or under common law to say we must re-run the referendum or declare the result void some maintain that she was neverthless honour bound under democratic principles to do so.

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-08 7:38 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 7:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-08 6:18 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

No, it has got everything to do with democracy. The points in issue was whether TM acted in accordance with the law, and more importantly whether she acted reasonably. The claimaints maintained that the consequence of TM triggering Article 50 before the investigation into the unlawful conduct was complete was not reasonable because the offences committed undermined democracy by skewing/influencing the vote. Whilst TM was not bound by statute or under common law to say we must re-run the referendum or declare the result void some maintain that she was neverthless honour bound under democratic principles to do so.


So Remoaners brought the case because they are concerned about democracy? ........

Now that IS funny Veronica .......... ......

userBulletguy
Posted: 8 March 2019 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 7:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-08 6:18 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

No, it has got everything to do with democracy. The points in issue was whether TM acted in accordance with the law, and more importantly whether she acted reasonably. The claimaints maintained that the consequence of TM triggering Article 50 before the investigation into the unlawful conduct was complete was not reasonable because the offences committed undermined democracy by skewing/influencing the vote. Whilst TM was not bound by statute or under common law to say we must re-run the referendum or declare the result void some maintain that she was neverthless honour bound under democratic principles to do so.

Pelmets interpretation of democracy is to applaud the use of criminality to subvert it. Post referendum much more has now come to light. Viewing C4's reports on the Banks files has been truly chilling and can only hope the NCA are following the money as that's the only way they will get to the bottom of this, but it's a massive task with a PM who knows time isn't on the NCA's side. A50 should never have been triggered when it was.

Yes i had to whack the speaker volume up on those clips. Both sides had very poor mic's set too far away and Miss Simor QC was barely audible. If you run any normal YT clip through after you'll find you have turn the volume level back down. Pity the entire court transcript doesn't seem available.
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