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21st century UK?
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userBulletguy
Posted: 20 December 2018 9:39 PM
Subject: 21st century UK?
 


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Almost 600 homeless people died in England and Wales last year. Allegedly the worlds fifth wealthiest nation.....yet has people living in tents and bins and dying on the streets.

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-almost-600-homeless-people-died-in-england-and-wales-last-year

But then it took an investigation by UN special rapporteur to come and examine the widespread poverty in UK which he described as “punitive, mean-spirited, and callous”.....a result of this governments severe austerity policies. He also said, ‘If a new minister was interested, if a new Government were interested, the harshness could be changed overnight and for very little money, but ministers are in a state of denial'.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/19/there-are-14000000-in-poverty-in-britain-because-of-austerity-un-says-8154144/

https://www.channel4.com/news/un-expert-says-austerity-has-condemned-millions-to-poverty
userantony1969
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:23 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Put some up ... Its obvious you need the company now
userTracker
Posted: 21 December 2018 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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I agree that I too do not like the way the UK is heading and it has nothing to do with Brexit.

The growth of corporate, political and individual greed, intolerance, lack of integrity and dishonesty is frightening.

There will always be homelessness and for some who elect to drop out of the 'system' it is a way of life, always has been and always will be, and at times who can blame them looking at the state of the state?

That is not to say there could be a lot more done to help those who do fall through the net, but like so many others who needed help over the years, no body helped me when I needed it, I sorted myself out and started again so again like many others I feel disinclined to help, but if you want to help with your own time and cash then good luck to you and I hope those you help will appreciate it.

For me there are greater issues, NHS, education, policing, social care to name but a few that would get my vote for more funding, even if it means higher taxation.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 21 December 2018 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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I sorted myself out, so others should do the same, seems a remarkably insulated attitude Rich. Are you really saying that you regard all those rough sleepers to be your intellectual and financial equals, or are you just being provocative?

Casual observation suggests that many are mentally disturbed - for whatever reason - or are simply "intellectually challenged".

Whatever, they do not seem to represent a cross-section sample of the population, and most seem to need professional help of a kind you clearly did not.

Given that help, I suspect that many could be turned around, and the others could be found better accommodation than a sleeping bag on cardboard. We are not all equal: some cope better than others, and some cannot cope at all. Compassion is not a sin.
userantony1969
Posted: 21 December 2018 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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You'll probably find Brian that for many of those on the streets help has been available many , many times and being on the streets is the final destination for those who dont want to be helped ... Went to my daughters karate presentation on Sunday and there was a lot of food left over so yesterday when I took her for the lesson I asked what they'd done with it and in their own time they took it to those supposedly homeless in the town centre ... The supposed homeless weren't interested in the grub they just wanted money and what would that money be used for ??? alcohol and drugs of course , the same alcohol and drugs they will have had help with all the way but yet they choose a different path ... Now you can blame Government or whoever you want to blame but if folk dont help themselves I cant see why I would want to give them my sympathy
usersnowie
Posted: 21 December 2018 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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I’ve never been a fan of the “devil take the hindmost” philosophy, so am inclined to lean to the left of centre.

However, I find the short-term nature of our system responsible for a large part of its disfunctionality.

Snowie
userViolet1956
Posted: 21 December 2018 2:07 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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I hear what you say Rich but I think neither you nor I can contemplate the kind of catastrophes that many of our homeless have had to face in their lives.
usersnowie
Posted: 21 December 2018 2:24 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-12-21 2:07 PM

I hear what you say Rich but I think neither you nor I can contemplate the kind of catastrophes that many of our homeless have had to face in their lives.


That’s absolutely right Violet.

What surprises me is how readily we accept that it is acceptable for there to be “bad landlords”

The quality of U k housing is so low in comparison with European standards, so we start from a lower level.
I’ve just seen Look North and seen a landlord dealing with the aftermath of a family of bad tenants, so I accept that they are equally unacceptable. These are big issues, and Austerity has done nothing to alleviate any of these problems.

Snowie
userpelmetman
Posted: 21 December 2018 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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I wonder how many of the supposedly homeless are non UK citizens? ........

https://theconversation.com/the-uk-can-no-longer-remove-eu-citizens-for-sleeping-rough-why-this-matters-for-brexit-89463

BTW did they die because they were homeless? ..........

Or because of their lifestyle choices? ........

Is no one actually responsible for THEIR actions anymore? ..........

userantony1969
Posted: 21 December 2018 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-21 2:38 PM

I wonder how many of the supposedly homeless are non UK citizens? ........

https://theconversation.com/the-uk-can-no-longer-remove-eu-citizens-for-sleeping-rough-why-this-matters-for-brexit-89463

BTW did they die because they were homeless? ..........

Or because of their lifestyle choices? ........

Is no one actually responsible for THEIR actions anymore? ..........



Leave em to their horror and shock at the homeless ... Im always staggered by those who profess to care who do nothing to help who have empty space at their properties or as many of us do have empty motorhomes parked on the drive ... The concern doesnt stretch that far obviously
usersnowie
Posted: 21 December 2018 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-21 2:38 PM

I wonder how many of the supposedly homeless are non UK citizens?



LWhy don’t we give you the job of asking them all their nationality?

Maybe you would develop some empathy?

Snowie
userBulletguy
Posted: 21 December 2018 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-12-21 2:07 PM

I hear what you say Rich but I think neither you nor I can contemplate the kind of catastrophes that many of our homeless have had to face in their lives.

Exactly and the outpouring of 'empathy' from the usual suspects is as i imagined it would be. I doubt they even viewed the clip....just 11 minutes out of their privileged more fortunate lives.
userBulletguy
Posted: 21 December 2018 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-21 3:13 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-21 2:38 PM

I wonder how many of the supposedly homeless are non UK citizens?



LWhy don’t we give you the job of asking them all their nationality?

Maybe you would develop some empathy?[[/

Snowie

There's more chance of hell freezing over before that.
userTracker
Posted: 21 December 2018 4:18 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-21 10:54 AM
We are not all equal: some cope better than others, and some cannot cope at all. Compassion is not a sin.


What really hacks me off Brian is all this pious talk about helping others blah blah blah from so many people up and down the land, some a lot wealthier than I, (and I point no fingers at anyone on here) who spout a lot about how the country should be run and do nowt themselves to make it so.

Perhaps it makes them feel better about themselves and at the risk of being seen as 'insulated' I don't need to spout or have others see me as a wonderful geezer to be content with my life?

Joyeux Noel!
userViolet1956
Posted: 21 December 2018 5:24 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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antony1969 - 2018-12-21 3:09 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-21 2:38 PM

I wonder how many of the supposedly homeless are non UK citizens? ........

https://theconversation.com/the-uk-can-no-longer-remove-eu-citizens-for-sleeping-rough-why-this-matters-for-brexit-89463

BTW did they die because they were homeless? ..........

Or because of their lifestyle choices? ........

Is no one actually responsible for THEIR actions anymore? ..........



Leave em to their horror and shock at the homeless ... Im always staggered by those who profess to care who do nothing to help who have empty space at their properties or as many of us do have empty motorhomes parked on the drive ... The concern doesnt stretch that far obviously


To assume that to give a room in your home to a homeless stranger could give them the leg up they need is wholly misplaced and unrealistic in my view. I have limited experience of dealing with the homeless but from that limited experience I would venture that the majority of the homeless are totally unsuited to the life they would experience in someone else’s home. The best that most of the fortunate can do is to make financial and/or practical contributions to the charities that support them.
userpelmetman
Posted: 21 December 2018 5:28 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-21 3:13 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-21 2:38 PM

I wonder how many of the supposedly homeless are non UK citizens?



LWhy don’t we give you the job of asking them all their nationality?

Maybe you would develop some empathy?

Snowie


I have plenty of empathy ........I just don't waste it on those who don't deserve it .........

I've also made plenty of dumb ar*e choices in my 60 years ...........

So who's fault is that? ...........

MINE ........

Perhaps if folk started accepting that some folks mistakes are "their" mistakes...... rather than societies.......we may make some progress .........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-21 5:36 PM
usersnowie
Posted: 21 December 2018 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Leave em to their horror and shock at the homeless ... Im always staggered by those who profess to care who do nothing to help who have empty space at their properties or as many of us do have empty motorhomes parked on the drive ... The concern doesnt stretch that far obviously


I suppose you’d support the “bedroom tax” then?

Or is it an assumption too far to suggest that you support taxation at all ?

Because the whole point of living in a civilised society is that we pay taxes to provide services that we couldn’t afford on an individual basis, and to enable the communities we live in to do things on our behalf.

Snowie
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 21 December 2018 5:42 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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antony1969 - 2018-12-21 11:37 AM

You'll probably find Brian that for many of those on the streets help has been available many , many times and being on the streets is the final destination for those who dont want to be helped ... Went to my daughters karate presentation on Sunday and there was a lot of food left over so yesterday when I took her for the lesson I asked what they'd done with it and in their own time they took it to those supposedly homeless in the town centre ... The supposed homeless weren't interested in the grub they just wanted money and what would that money be used for ??? alcohol and drugs of course , the same alcohol and drugs they will have had help with all the way but yet they choose a different path ... Now you can blame Government or whoever you want to blame but if folk dont help themselves I cant see why I would want to give them my sympathy

Well, I'm sorry Antony, but that seems to me just a convenient fig-leaf of an argument to shield you from feelings of guilt. You may well be right in the case of some, but to apply that same logic to all, on the basis that all rough sleepers are from the same mould, is an 18th C attitude that holds the inadequate to blame for their inadequacies, and punishes them.

We may, in theory, all be born equal, but that equality soon proves an illusion. You must have noticed at school, even at primary school, that some kids just progressed while others struggled. That difference persists throughout our lives, and once we approach maturity and independence, becomes more apparent as the decisions we confront become more difficult, and we begin to take them. Some just can't make it work, and some need continual guidance to continue making it work. If that guidance fails, they fail. How the failure manifests obviously varies, some pick themselves up and try again, others just slip into depression, turn to booze or drugs, and end on the streets. By that stage, they are beyond making the sorts of logical calculations you expect of them. It's like putting a legless person into a high-jump contest. They can't do it alone.
userBulletguy
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-12-21 5:24 PM

antony1969 - 2018-12-21 3:09 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-21 2:38 PM

I wonder how many of the supposedly homeless are non UK citizens? ........

https://theconversation.com/the-uk-can-no-longer-remove-eu-citizens-for-sleeping-rough-why-this-matters-for-brexit-89463

BTW did they die because they were homeless? ..........

Or because of their lifestyle choices? ........

Is no one actually responsible for THEIR actions anymore? ..........



Leave em to their horror and shock at the homeless ... Im always staggered by those who profess to care who do nothing to help who have empty space at their properties or as many of us do have empty motorhomes parked on the drive ... The concern doesnt stretch that far obviously


To assume that to give a room in your home to a homeless stranger could give them the leg up they need is wholly misplaced and unrealistic in my view. I have limited experience of dealing with the homeless but from that limited experience I would venture that the majority of the homeless are totally unsuited to the life they would experience in someone else’s home. The best that most of the fortunate can do is to make financial and/or practical contributions to the charities that support them.

Most fall from society for a variety of reasons and those believing they have some kind of 'special immunity' would do well to read of the guy who lost his job as an aircraft engineer during the recession 10 years ago and ended up living in a tent......until that was set on fire by vile pond life trash. A human being with a moral compass gave him a car which he lived in.

But this was no 'ordinary' guy. He'd graduated from Bristol University with a degree in applied mathematics and theoretical physics. He'd even been shortlisted to work with Prof. Hawkings.

http://www.yourharlow.com/2018/03/02/homeless-hamed-of-church-langley-passes-away/

https://www.essexlive.news/news/friendly-homeless-veteran-died-after-1337398
userpelmetman
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:10 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-21 5:42 PM

Because the whole point of living in a civilised society is that we pay taxes to provide services that we couldn’t afford on an individual basis, and to enable the communities we live in to do things on our behalf.

Snowie


That was the grand idea back before the lower orders like me discovered we could become ......Victims ........

I guess that's my problem ............

I wasn't brought up to be a Victim ........

userpelmetman
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-21 5:42 PM

We may, in theory, all be born equal, but that equality soon proves an illusion. You must have noticed at school, even at primary school, that some kids just progressed while others struggled.



I was one of those kids Brian .........

So what ........

Stop telling them they're victims .........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:17 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-12-21 5:24 PM
antony1969 - 2018-12-21 3:09 PM
pelmetman - 2018-12-21 2:38 PM
I wonder how many of the supposedly homeless are non UK citizens? ........
https://theconversation.com/the-uk-can-no-longer-remove-eu-citizens-for-sleeping-rough-why-this-matters-for-brexit-89463
BTW did they die because they were homeless? ..........
Or because of their lifestyle choices? ........
Is no one actually responsible for THEIR actions anymore? ..........

Leave em to their horror and shock at the homeless ... Im always staggered by those who profess to care who do nothing to help who have empty space at their properties or as many of us do have empty motorhomes parked on the drive ... The concern doesnt stretch that far obviously

To assume that to give a room in your home to a homeless stranger could give them the leg up they need is wholly misplaced and unrealistic in my view. I have limited experience of dealing with the homeless but from that limited experience I would venture that the majority of the homeless are totally unsuited to the life they would experience in someone else’s home. The best that most of the fortunate can do is to make financial and/or practical contributions to the charities that support them.

Quite. The above arguments are both "get out" clauses. The first is a straw man: i.e. they chose the wrong parents, or birth-place, so deserve what they get, the second (from he who likes bragging that the UK is the world's fifth richest country) blames them for their genetic inheritance and, finding them lacking, thinks they should be abandoned to their fate. In essence, both are saying don't ask me to help - what I have is for me alone, using "Cinderella" challenges in justification! Why?
userBarryd999
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Most of the homeless Ive come across have certainly been grateful for being fed. I used to sometimes in places like Manchester, Edinburgh or London give them food if I was away on business. If I wasnt meeting anyone I would just go to Pizza hut or similar and order a shed load of pizza and a bottle of wine, I would neck the wine and maybe some Pizza and just get the rest boxed up and give it to the first homeless people I saw outside which was usually pretty much just outside the restaurant. It was certainly always scoffed!

userpelmetman
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-21 6:17 PM
the second (from he who likes bragging that the UK is the world's fifth richest country) blames them for their genetic inheritance and, finding them lacking, thinks they should be abandoned to their fate. In essence, both are saying don't ask me to help - what I have is for me alone, using "Cinderella" challenges in justification! Why?


Spoken like someone who clearly never experienced being in the bottom class at school .........

I guess when you been at the bottom of the sh*t heap and came out on top changes ones views, compared to you clever types who have always known what its like to be blessed .........

usersnowie
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-21 6:10 PM

That was the grand idea back before the lower orders like me discovered we could become ......Victims ........

I guess that's my problem ............

I wasn't brought up to be a Victim ........


Well I’m encouraged by the fact that you can see that the concept of a Grand Idea might have some merit

I’m disappointed and surprised that you consider yourself to be a victim.

I suppose that’ a relative thing though?

Snowie
userpelmetman
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Barryd999 - 2018-12-21 6:22 PM

Most of the homeless Ive come across have certainly been grateful for being fed. I used to sometimes in places like Manchester, Edinburgh or London give them food if I was away on business. If I wasnt meeting anyone I would just go to Pizza hut or similar and order a shed load of pizza and a bottle of wine, I would neck the wine and maybe some Pizza and just get the rest boxed up and give it to the first homeless people I saw outside which was usually pretty much just outside the restaurant. It was certainly always scoffed!



Of course they are .......

It means they have more money for drugs or booze ........

Damn you bleeding hearts are dumb ........

userpelmetman
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


Walks with the gods

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snowie - 2018-12-21 6:26 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-21 6:10 PM

That was the grand idea back before the lower orders like me discovered we could become ......Victims ........

I guess that's my problem ............

I wasn't brought up to be a Victim ........


Well I’m encouraged by the fact that you can see that the concept of a Grand Idea might have some merit

I’m disappointed and surprised that you consider yourself to be a victim.

I suppose that’ a relative thing though?

Snowie


I didn't consider myself a victim, which was my point ........

You Labour lefties have spent years turning folk into victims ........

Fortunately my upbringing didn't make me that gullible ......

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:35 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-21 6:24 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-21 6:17 PM
the second (from he who likes bragging that the UK is the world's fifth richest country) blames them for their genetic inheritance and, finding them lacking, thinks they should be abandoned to their fate. In essence, both are saying don't ask me to help - what I have is for me alone, using "Cinderella" challenges in justification! Why?

Spoken like someone who clearly never experienced being in the bottom class at school .........
I guess when you been at the bottom of the sh*t heap and came out on top changes ones views, compared to you clever types who have always known what its like to be blessed .........

I would have thought the person you describe would have greater incentive to help others in the same boat he claims to have occupied, rather than saying "tough, I'm alright Jack!" Seemingly not.
userpelmetman
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


Walks with the gods

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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-21 6:35 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-21 6:24 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-21 6:17 PM
the second (from he who likes bragging that the UK is the world's fifth richest country) blames them for their genetic inheritance and, finding them lacking, thinks they should be abandoned to their fate. In essence, both are saying don't ask me to help - what I have is for me alone, using "Cinderella" challenges in justification! Why?

Spoken like someone who clearly never experienced being in the bottom class at school .........
I guess when you been at the bottom of the sh*t heap and came out on top changes ones views, compared to you clever types who have always known what its like to be blessed .........

I would have thought the person you describe would have greater incentive to help others in the same boat he claims to have occupied, rather than saying "tough, I'm alright Jack!" Seemingly not.


Its called tough love Brian ........

It works surprisingly very well for us members of the lower orders .......

Which kinda explains why the hug a hoody approach of the educated but seriously dumb doesn't .......

usersnowie
Posted: 21 December 2018 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-21 6:41 PM

Which kinda explains why the hug a hoody approach of the educated but seriously dumb doesn't .......



I thought Cameron was the hoody-hugger?

Snowie
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