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21st century UK?
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userpelmetman
Posted: 27 December 2018 8:04 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-27 6:37 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-21 6:24 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-21 6:17 PM
the second (from he who likes bragging that the UK is the world's fifth richest country) blames them for their genetic inheritance and, finding them lacking, thinks they should be abandoned to their fate. In essence, both are saying don't ask me to help - what I have is for me alone, using "Cinderella" challenges in justification! Why?

Spoken like someone who clearly never experienced being in the bottom class at school .........
I guess when you been at the bottom of the sh*t heap and came out on top changes ones views, compared to you clever types who have always known what its like to be blessed ......…

You make far too many assumptions, Dave, and then base disreputable arguments on them.


I base my arguments on your posts ...........

You are clearly just as partisan as me .......

Maybe not quite as disreputable.........Yet ........

usersnowie
Posted: 27 December 2018 8:21 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-27 8:04


I base my arguments on your posts ...........

You are clearly just as partisan as me .......

Maybe not quite as disreputable.........Yet ........



What the hell does that drivvle mean?

Snowie

Edited by snowie 2018-12-27 8:21 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 27 December 2018 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-27 8:21 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 8:04


I base my arguments on your posts ...........

You are clearly just as partisan as me .......

Maybe not quite as disreputable.........Yet ........



What the hell does that drivvle mean?

Snowie


That drivel ..........

Means I haven't swallowed Brian's FAKE news ..........

Do try and keep up ........

Was Brian ever in the bottom class at school? ......



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-27 8:44 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-27 7:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 5:04 PM

Regards criminality from EU countries, as i said you've just voted to make that a damn sight easier now as it's very likely we will lose previously unfettered access to Europols database. But of course you knew that didn't you.....hence the reason you voted to leave EU? Funny that you avoided answering that....or maybe you didn't know everything what you were voting for. You didn't did you?

Why easier? ...........

I explained quite clearly why and you shouldn't need to have it read back to you each time like a child.

How many EU criminal A Holes have we managed to keep out? ........

I'm sure you will find some "statistics" from the Daily Xenophobe to suit your narrative but what makes you think criminality only extends to EU member states? Non-EU countries also have criminality......and because you wanted rid of EU citizens, they've been replaced by a massive increase of migration from non-EU. Oh the irony!

Well somebody has got to do the work haven't they?
userBulletguy
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-27 8:00 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-27 5:38 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-26 9:49 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-22 6:52 PM
Which problem do you mean? The immigration problem, or the free movement problem? The free movement problem doesn't (and didn't) exist, because there is no actual right to just turn up and walk in.

Why is London awash with Romanian pickpockets then? .........
Because we cant deny them entry! ........
So the evidence proves you are spreading fake news .........

Why indeed? I can't explain why.

Here is an extract from DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004, which, so far as I can see, is still in force.

"CHAPTER III
Right of residence

Article 6
Right of residence for up to three months
1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

Article 7
Right of residence for more than three months
1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for
a period of longer than three months if they:
(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
(c) are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family
members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence; or
(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions referred to in points (a), (b) or (c)."

It seems your Romanians are not temporary visitors, in that I assume they have been in UK/London for more than 3 months. (If they are merely temporary visitors, they can be requested to show that they are not intending to stay for more than three months, have health insurance, and can be asked to register their presence).

So, reading the above from Articles 6 and 7, you tell me how they are able to stay in the UK by surviving only as petty thieves.

I assume the UK government exercised its powers under DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC to require them to state the purpose of their visits, show how they would support themselves, had adequate health insurance, and to register. So, show me how they were able to (apparently) extend their stay beyond three months, having apparently already violated the conditions under which they would be entitled to extend their stay.

I cannot explain those things - unless the government has decided to waive all those things that the above extracts say they are entitled to do. So, it seems the government has either somehow managed to misplace all these people, which I would call incompetence, or has decided to turn a "blind eye" to their presence saying they do not have the powers that the DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC says they have, which I would call duplicitous.

So there you are: fools or knaves? Your call.


So you are a fool who believes the boll*cks spread by EU knaves .......

I prefer to believe the evidence on our streets ..........

Oh FGS pull your head out of your backside and read what Brian posted instead of swallowing xenophobic hyperbole and bile fed to you by the Wail. That rag isn't even fit for toilet paper.
userBulletguy
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-27 8:21 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 8:04


I base my arguments on your posts ...........

You are clearly just as partisan as me .......

Maybe not quite as disreputable.........Yet ........



What the hell does that drivvle mean?

Snowie

When he starts waffling gobbledygook it's a sure sign he's been at the bottle again.
userpelmetman
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 9:02 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 7:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 5:04 PM

Regards criminality from EU countries, as i said you've just voted to make that a damn sight easier now as it's very likely we will lose previously unfettered access to Europols database. But of course you knew that didn't you.....hence the reason you voted to leave EU? Funny that you avoided answering that....or maybe you didn't know everything what you were voting for. You didn't did you?

Why easier? ...........

I explained quite clearly why and you shouldn't need to have it read back to you each time like a child.

How many EU criminal A Holes have we managed to keep out? ........

I'm sure you will find some "statistics" from the Daily Xenophobe to suit your narrative but what makes you think criminality only extends to EU member states? Non-EU countries also have criminality......and because you wanted rid of EU citizens, they've been replaced by a massive increase of migration from non-EU. Oh the irony!

Well somebody has got to do the work haven't they?


Oh the stupidity! .........

Controlled migration would mean we would have control .........

usersnowie
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:12 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 9:02 PM


Well somebody has got to do the work haven't they?


Our economy needs migrant workers, but the Brexiters won’t understand that, our pensions rely on our economy’s success. In a non-sustainable economy that will always be so.

But if you’ve got a decent stash then you don’t need it, Smoggy, BoJo, and Pelmet,

Snowie

Edited by snowie 2018-12-27 9:16 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 9:08 PM

Oh FGS pull your head out of your backside and read what Brian posted instead of swallowing xenophobic hyperbole and bile fed to you by the Wail. That rag isn't even fit for toilet paper.


Oh FGS stop talking out of yours ........























and stop licking Brian's .........

userpelmetman
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-27 9:12 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 9:02 PM


Well somebody has got to do the work haven't they?


Our economy needs migrant workers, but the Brexiters won’t understand that, our pensions rely on our economy’s success. In a non-sustainable economy that will always be so.

But if you’ve got a decent stache (apologies if spelling isn’t correct) then you don’t need it, Smoggy, BoJo, and Pelmet,

Snowie


Who's saying we should stop migration? .........

Does "controlled migration" not make sense? .........

Or do you have a lack of scumbags in your area? .........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-27 9:17 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:23 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 9:11 PM

snowie - 2018-12-27 8:21 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 8:04


I base my arguments on your posts ...........

You are clearly just as partisan as me .......

Maybe not quite as disreputable.........Yet ........



What the hell does that drivvle mean?

Snowie

When he starts waffling gobbledygook it's a sure sign he's been at the bottle again.


Waffle & Gobbledygook is the specialty of you left wingers ..........

You use it to deflect from your long history of incompetence and dangerous ideologies ..........



usersnowie
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:16 PM

Or do you have a lack of scumbags in your area? .........



You really do take my breath away !

Snowie
userpelmetman
Posted: 27 December 2018 9:27 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-27 9:24 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:16 PM

Or do you have a lack of scumbags in your area? .........



You really do take my breath away !

Snowie


You obviously don't have any scumbags then ...........

If that's all you've ever had taken ...........

userBulletguy
Posted: 27 December 2018 10:36 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:11 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 9:02 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 7:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 5:04 PM

Regards criminality from EU countries, as i said you've just voted to make that a damn sight easier now as it's very likely we will lose previously unfettered access to Europols database. But of course you knew that didn't you.....hence the reason you voted to leave EU? Funny that you avoided answering that....or maybe you didn't know everything what you were voting for. You didn't did you?

Why easier? ...........

I explained quite clearly why and you shouldn't need to have it read back to you each time like a child.

How many EU criminal A Holes have we managed to keep out? ........

I'm sure you will find some "statistics" from the Daily Xenophobe to suit your narrative but what makes you think criminality only extends to EU member states? Non-EU countries also have criminality......and because you wanted rid of EU citizens, they've been replaced by a massive increase of migration from non-EU. Oh the irony!

Well somebody has got to do the work haven't they?


Oh the stupidity! .........

Controlled migration would mean we would have control .........

Care to elaborate this point with more than a tweet of eight words? As the EU were not responsible for us ignoring their regulations and UK government including the present incumbent encouraging more in beyond that of the EU regs, whose at fault and how do you believe exiting the EU will 'control' immigration?

So far your idea of 'control' appears to be swapping one set for another.....EU for non-EU.
userBulletguy
Posted: 27 December 2018 10:40 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:13 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 9:08 PM

Oh FGS pull your head out of your backside and read what Brian posted instead of swallowing xenophobic hyperbole and bile fed to you by the Wail. That rag isn't even fit for toilet paper.


Oh FGS stop talking out of yours ........

Why won't you read through that directive......are you afraid or is it just a bit beyond you?
userBulletguy
Posted: 27 December 2018 10:58 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-27 9:12 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 9:02 PM


Well somebody has got to do the work haven't they?


Our economy needs migrant workers, but the Brexiters won’t understand that, our pensions rely on our economy’s success. In a non-sustainable economy that will always be so.

But if you’ve got a decent stash then you don’t need it, Smoggy, BoJo, and Pelmet,

Snowie

Smoggy and BoJo both have a few million at their disposal. Smoggy even more as he has a huge wedge in a pharma company flogging abortion pills.....money trumps personal conscience when loadsa lolly is up for grabs!

Pelmet stash? Hhmm......lets see, part time sailor boy, bus driver, puff maker, diy "lawyer", benefit claimant....probably missed some "jobs" out there as he's had that many in his 20 odd years of on/off "work" before "retiring". Stash is reliant on a wing, prayer and divine intervention but as a self confessed atheist he won't be getting much of that either!
userBulletguy
Posted: 27 December 2018 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:27 PM

snowie - 2018-12-27 9:24 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:16 PM

Or do you have a lack of scumbags in your area? .........



You really do take my breath away !

Snowie


You obviously don't have any scumbags then ...........

But you spend half the year out of UK.....that said as another poster observed you hang out in some dodgy parts of Spain among the Brit boozers and chippy set. Seems to be a 'cultural' attraction for you.
userBarryd999
Posted: 28 December 2018 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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I really dont know why some Brexiteers seem to think that we will have some wonderful and efficient "controlled" immigration system post Brexit better than what we have now. At the moment it looks like our borders and customs will be in complete chaos and meltdown. Even our own border control officials and experts say that. We cant effectively keep tabs on immigrants now so in a chaotic post Brexit Britain which will be even more cash strapped with less resources than we have now why do they think it will somehow be easier to control immigration?

The likelihood is (which is already happening) you will simply deter good quality law abiding migrants from Europe and just fill the country with less scrupulous nomads who will just slip under the radar. Our governments have never been serious about curbing immigration, what makes you think Brexit will change that?

Edited by Barryd999 2018-12-28 9:35 AM
userpelmetman
Posted: 28 December 2018 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Barryd999 - 2018-12-28 9:33 AM

I really dont know why some Brexiteers seem to think that we will have some wonderful and efficient "controlled" immigration system post Brexit better than what we have now.


What control?????? ...........

It's pretty obvious from this EU pdf ........ WE HAVE NO CONTROL! ...........

http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/front_end/docs/faq.pdf



userpelmetman
Posted: 28 December 2018 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 11:07 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:27 PM

snowie - 2018-12-27 9:24 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:16 PM

Or do you have a lack of scumbags in your area? .........



You really do take my breath away !

Snowie


You obviously don't have any scumbags then ...........

But you spend half the year out of UK.....that said as another poster observed you hang out in some dodgy parts of Spain among the Brit boozers and chippy set. Seems to be a 'cultural' attraction for you.


Yep those same dodgy parts that "Blatherin" hangs out in ............



userBarryd999
Posted: 28 December 2018 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Even one of the chief border force bods was on the news just now saying that they rely on cooperation with French and other EU border forces and cross border security arrangements to curb illegal immigration which he reckons without a deal will simply fall apart.

A no deal Brexit could just open the floodgates and Nigels racist poster might just become the reality huh?

Meanwhile legitimate Immigration will simply stay about the same just with less immigrants from the EU who leave of their own accord or just dont bother coming anymore as Britain becomes less attractive only to be replaced by Asians and Africans who are less fussy. Already happening.

Brexit could be the biggest own goal against those that are obsessed with immigration ever.

Edited by Barryd999 2018-12-28 11:22 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 28 December 2018 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:11 PM.......................Oh the stupidity! .........
Controlled migration would mean we would have control ......…

We have Dave, that is what my quotation from the actual EU regulations, above, means. You really should read it.

The UK government has extensive control over EU migration, but chooses not to use it. It has even greater control over non-EU migration, but still chooses to admit more than 50% of total migrants from outside the EU.

Yet you think if the government had control over migration it would stop it. It has, it doesn't. Wake up and smell the coffee. You've believed false prophets.

Migration is not going to stop, because business wants it, so government obliges - in the interests of the economy. The immigration is politically unpopular, so the government hid behind the EU's skirts. You've been had! It really is that simple. Sad!
userBulletguy
Posted: 28 December 2018 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-28 9:39 AM

Barryd999 - 2018-12-28 9:33 AM

I really dont know why some Brexiteers seem to think that we will have some wonderful and efficient "controlled" immigration system post Brexit better than what we have now.


What control?????? ...........

It's pretty obvious from this EU pdf ........ WE HAVE NO CONTROL! ...........

http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/front_end/docs/faq.pdf

It's been pointed out to you before but you refuse to read this.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmhaff/857/857.pdf
userBulletguy
Posted: 28 December 2018 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-28 9:42 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-27 11:07 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:27 PM

snowie - 2018-12-27 9:24 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-27 9:16 PM

Or do you have a lack of scumbags in your area? .........



You really do take my breath away !

Snowie


You obviously don't have any scumbags then ...........

But you spend half the year out of UK.....that said as another poster observed you hang out in some dodgy parts of Spain among the Brit boozers and chippy set. Seems to be a 'cultural' attraction for you.


Yep those same dodgy parts that "Blatherin" hangs out in ............

I've no idea who you are on about though you certainly do plenty of blatherin' on here. It was a poster whose toured throughout Spain so knows where the rough dive areas are, one of which seems to be your preference to claim "residency".

Even the Belgian lady noted your perverse hypocrisy over that.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 28 December 2018 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-28 9:39 AM
Barryd999 - 2018-12-28 9:33 AM
I really dont know why some Brexiteers seem to think that we will have some wonderful and efficient "controlled" immigration system post Brexit better than what we have now.

What control?????? ...........
It's pretty obvious from this EU pdf ........ WE HAVE NO CONTROL! ...........
http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/front_end/docs/faq.pdf

Brilliant find, Dave!

I don't understand why you think it proves there are no controls, though. It illustrates the degree of control, and the varying conditions under which they can be applied, all the way through.

I suspect that you haven't read it in depth yet, but suggest that you do, as it gives a few useful pointers as to how your application for residency in Spain post-Brexit might be treated! Very interesting.
userpelmetman
Posted: 29 December 2018 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-28 6:02 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-28 9:39 AM
Barryd999 - 2018-12-28 9:33 AM
I really dont know why some Brexiteers seem to think that we will have some wonderful and efficient "controlled" immigration system post Brexit better than what we have now.

What control?????? ...........
It's pretty obvious from this EU pdf ........ WE HAVE NO CONTROL! ...........
http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/front_end/docs/faq.pdf

Brilliant find, Dave!

I don't understand why you think it proves there are no controls, though. It illustrates the degree of control, and the varying conditions under which they can be applied, all the way through.



You call this control?????? ..........

"This fundamental right of free movement can be restricted on grounds of public security,
public health and public order.

****However, this restriction must be interpreted strictly, and it is only
on grounds of present and serious threat to public security**** that you can be forbidden to enter
France or any other country."

Ye Gods you Remoaners are desperate fellows if you call that control ...........

usersnowie
Posted: 29 December 2018 10:49 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-29 9

You call this control?????? ..........

"This fundamental right of free movement can be restricted on grounds of public security,
public health and public order.

****However, this restriction must be interpreted strictly, and it is only
on grounds of present and serious threat to public security**** that you can be forbidden to enter
France or any other country."

Ye Gods you Remoaners are desperate fellows if you call that control ...........



Just because there are conditions attached to that control doesn’t mean there is no control, just that it is not random.

You guys just want to dump all regulations that don’t give us some advantage (as you see it) and pick up the pieces afterwards.
I’m sure the Dickensians amongst you imagine a time when we could do as we please, on a global scale, and not answer to anyone.
Times have changed.
I suppose you would also be happy for what remains of our manufacturing industries to have to comply with multiple standards in order to gain access to all these new global markets that are waiting for us to woo them?
Dream on.
Snowie
userpelmetman
Posted: 29 December 2018 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-29 10:49 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-29 9

You call this control?????? ..........

"This fundamental right of free movement can be restricted on grounds of public security,
public health and public order.

****However, this restriction must be interpreted strictly, and it is only
on grounds of present and serious threat to public security**** that you can be forbidden to enter
France or any other country."

Ye Gods you Remoaners are desperate fellows if you call that control ...........



Just because there are conditions attached to that control doesn’t mean there is no control, just that it is not random.




What control???? ...........

Being allowed to ban criminals only if they "admit" they intend to rob, rape, or murder in the UK is NOT CONTROL .........

Its MINDLESS STUPIDITY of the highest order ...........





Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-29 11:15 AM
userViolet1956
Posted: 29 December 2018 11:32 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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You've read something into the regulations that doesn't appear in them Dave. Whether or not someone poses a risk is not dependent on them making admissions regarding their intentions but based on evidence about their behaviour.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 29 December 2018 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-12-29 11:32 AM

You've read something into the regulations that doesn't appear in them Dave. Whether or not someone poses a risk is not dependent on them making admissions regarding their intentions but based on evidence about their behaviour.

Quite, plus the concept of reasonable grounds for suspicion.

When you turn up at a border, if the man on the border says no go, you don't get in. They aren't obliged to give you chapter and verse, just that you will not be admitted. If you've merely forgotten your passport, you will be given the opportunity to find it, but otherwise, you don't get in.

If you want to challenge that decision you may be entitled to see, or obtain, the detailed reasons, but not while you wait at the border. You'll have to go home and get a solicitor to formally issue the challenge for you.

Just read the document, and you'll see how many rules there are under which you can be denied entry, and that you have to comply with to gain entry. It was your find, read it: and you'll see how distorted and inaccurate your understanding of the rules has become.

You seem to me to be assuming that your experiences to date travelling within the EU as a citizen of a member state, will equate to your experiences, post-Brexit, travelling within the EU as a citizen of a "third country". They won't.

The border guard is entitled to ask you questions to be satisfied that you are a bona-fide traveller/visitor before letting you in. The only real restriction on the actions of the border guard is that, if you are an EU citizen, a) he must not stamp your passport and b) that he mustn't refuse you entry because of your nationality, ethnicity, religion etc. In effect, he carries out a negative vet - something, as an ex-naval rating, you should know about. How searchingly he chooses to do that will depend in part on how you present, and in part on what his government instructs him to do. Our governments have elected for "light touch" border checks in the case of EU citizens, which is why so many have been able to enter.

In the case of nationals of non-EU states, entry to UK has always been, and remains, within the gift of the UK government. Yet about 50% of all migrants come from outside the EU. Why, if government really wants to reduce immigration, can all these "aliens" enter? Have you never paused to ask yourself that?

It really doesn't matter what you want to believe, what you want doesn't correspond with what happened, and the evidence for that is in the select committee report I linked, that you won't tread. As I said way back, horse, drink, and water.
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