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21st century UK?
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userBulletguy
Posted: 29 December 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-29 12:27 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-12-29 11:32 AM

You've read something into the regulations that doesn't appear in them Dave. Whether or not someone poses a risk is not dependent on them making admissions regarding their intentions but based on evidence about their behaviour.

Quite, plus the concept of reasonable grounds for suspicion.

When you turn up at a border, if the man on the border says no go, you don't get in. They aren't obliged to give you chapter and verse, just that you will not be admitted. If you've merely forgotten your passport, you will be given the opportunity to find it, but otherwise, you don't get in.

I think the only way Pelmet is going to understand this will be from a personal experience..........when stopped and questioned by immigration at the UK border after making himself non-resident and effectively 'stateless'.
userpelmetman
Posted: 29 December 2018 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-12-29 11:32 AM

You've read something into the regulations that doesn't appear in them Dave. Whether or not someone poses a risk is not dependent on them making admissions regarding their intentions but based on evidence about their behaviour.


Based on "Evidence" of their behaviour? ...........

You mean if they're caught carrying a bag with "SWAG" written on they wont be allowed in? .........

userpelmetman
Posted: 29 December 2018 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-29 12:27 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-12-29 11:32 AM

You've read something into the regulations that doesn't appear in them Dave. Whether or not someone poses a risk is not dependent on them making admissions regarding their intentions but based on evidence about their behaviour.

Quite, plus the concept of reasonable grounds for suspicion.


"As an EU citizen, you are free to enter and reside, subject to some conditions, in the other EU
countries. This fundamental right of free movement can be restricted on grounds of public security,
public health and public order. However, this restriction must be interpreted strictly, and it is only
on grounds of present and serious threat to public security that you can be forbidden to enter
France or any other country. The mere existence of past convictions is not sufficient. If you are
still subject to an exclusion order, you may submit an application for its lifting after a reasonable
period, depending on the circumstances, and in any event after three years after your expulsion, by
putting forward arguments to establish that there has been a material change in the circumstances
which justified your expulsion."

Where does it state "reasonable grounds for suspicion"? ............

It's pretty clear to me that the onus is on our border agencies to PROVE intent to commit a crime .......

userViolet1956
Posted: 30 December 2018 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-29 8:49 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-12-29 11:32 AM

You've read something into the regulations that doesn't appear in them Dave. Whether or not someone poses a risk is not dependent on them making admissions regarding their intentions but based on evidence about their behaviour.


Based on "Evidence" of their behaviour? ...........

You mean if they're caught carrying a bag with "SWAG" written on they wont be allowed in? .........




I get it now, you are on about the fact that whilst we can in theory block EU citizens who have committed serious crimes in other EU countries from entry, the mechanisms for identifying them at port have proved inadequate on occasion. This article refers-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/mar/29/eu-dangerous-criminals-allowed-free-entry-uk-vote-leave-claims

There had been improvements in the sharing of information and more improvements were being contemplated. Leaving the EU does not solve the problem, in all probability it exacerbates it. In any event it’s a bit of a red herring since we have the same problem concerning non-European migrants and making EU citizens subject to the same rules as apply to them will not eradicate it.
userpelmetman
Posted: 30 December 2018 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-12-30 9:09 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-29 8:49 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-12-29 11:32 AM

You've read something into the regulations that doesn't appear in them Dave. Whether or not someone poses a risk is not dependent on them making admissions regarding their intentions but based on evidence about their behaviour.


Based on "Evidence" of their behaviour? ...........

You mean if they're caught carrying a bag with "SWAG" written on they wont be allowed in? .........




I get it now, you are on about the fact that whilst we can in theory block EU citizens who have committed serious crimes in other EU countries from entry, the mechanisms for identifying them at port have proved inadequate on occasion. This article refers-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/mar/29/eu-dangerous-criminals-allowed-free-entry-uk-vote-leave-claims

There had been improvements in the sharing of information and more improvements were being contemplated. Leaving the EU does not solve the problem, in all probability it exacerbates it. In any event it’s a bit of a red herring since we have the same problem concerning non-European migrants and making EU citizens subject to the same rules as apply to them will not eradicate it.


From your Remoaner rag .........

"Verdict: EU membership does not stop the UK turning away convicted serious criminals at its borders."

That's true ..........

They just make it virtually impossible by demanding our border agencies become clairvoyants ..........

Article 27 – General principles

1. Subject to the provisions of this Chapter, Member States may restrict the freedom of movement and residence of Union citizens and their family members, irrespective of nationality, on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. These grounds shall not be invoked to serve economic ends.

2. Measures taken on grounds of public policy or public security shall comply with the principle of proportionality and ****shall be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned.**** Previous criminal convictions shall not in themselves constitute grounds for taking such measures.

******The personal conduct of the individual concerned must represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. Justifications that are isolated from the particulars of the case or that rely on considerations of general prevention shall not be accepted.******







Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-30 9:49 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 30 December 2018 10:22 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-30 9:39 AM
Violet1956 - 2018-12-30 9:09 AM4
pelmetman - 2018-12-29 8:49 PM
Violet1956 - 2018-12-29 11:32 AM
You've read something into the regulations that doesn't appear in them Dave. Whether or not someone poses a risk is not dependent on them making admissions regarding their intentions but based on evidence about their behaviour.

Based on "Evidence" of their behaviour? ...........
You mean if they're caught carrying a bag with "SWAG" written on they wont be allowed in? .........

I get it now, you are on about the fact that whilst we can in theory block EU citizens who have committed serious crimes in other EU countries from entry, the mechanisms for identifying them at port have proved inadequate on occasion. This article refers-
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/mar/29/eu-dangerous-criminals-allowed-free-entry-uk-vote-leave-claims
There had been improvements in the sharing of information and more improvements were being contemplated. Leaving the EU does not solve the problem, in all probability it exacerbates it. In any event it’s a bit of a red herring since we have the same problem concerning non-European migrants and making EU citizens subject to the same rules as apply to them will not eradicate it.

From your Remoaner rag .........
"Verdict: EU membership does not stop the UK turning away convicted serious criminals at its borders."
That's true ..........
They just make it virtually impossible by demanding our border agencies become clairvoyants ..........
Article 27 – General principles
1. Subject to the provisions of this Chapter, Member States may restrict the freedom of movement and residence of Union citizens and their family members, irrespective of nationality, on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. These grounds shall not be invoked to serve economic ends.
2. Measures taken on grounds of public policy or public security shall comply with the principle of proportionality and ****shall be based exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned.**** Previous criminal convictions shall not in themselves constitute grounds for taking such measures.
******The personal conduct of the individual concerned must represent a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. Justifications that are isolated from the particulars of the case or that rely on considerations of general prevention shall not be accepted.******

Yep, you're getting it now Dave! In any democracy the rule of law has to be applied reasonably, or people won't respect the law. Reasonably means both adequately (i.e. cases are pursued to the maximum extent legally possible), but also fairly (i.e. people cannot be prosecuted for spurious reasons, they have beards, come from certain countries, look like a criminal, or merely say things that embarrass governments, etc. etc.). The same principles apply to border controls just as to criminal prosecutions.

What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.

I'm afraid it comes across to me as even more unreasonable in your case, as you are the one who is relying on Spain to turn a blind eye to your intention to over-stay in Spain by applying Nelson's eye to the law. Yet you accuse others of hypocrisy? One law for Dave, when it suits Dave, but Dave's law of total exclusion for everyone else, because that suits Dave? And you consider that reasonable and democratic? Physician, cure thyself!
userViolet1956
Posted: 30 December 2018 10:27 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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On what basis do you conclude that the EU makes it virtually impossible (to turn away serious convicted criminals) by demanding that our border agencies become clairvoyants Dave? I don’t see the logic in your argument and merely quoting the regulations doesn’t show that either.

The article in the Guardian includes the information that nearly 6000 EU nationals have been refused entry since 2010 and that we have agreements with the EU about information sharing. Did the immigration officers take out a crystal ball from under their desks when refusing entry to the 6000?

I can construct a better argument for you which is that the requirement to show that an EU citizen is a “present” risk is stricter than the test we apply to non-EU nationals seeking entry and Brexiteers believe that this is wrong and maintain that we should have the right to exclude or remove anyone we choose based on our own rules not those made by the EU. So it boils down to whether or not someone takes the view that membership confers more benefits than disbenefits which we have discussed ad nauseam previously.
userpelmetman
Posted: 30 December 2018 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-12-30 10:27 AM

The article in the Guardian includes the information that nearly 6000 EU nationals have been refused entry since 2010 and that we have agreements with the EU about information sharing. Did the immigration officers take out a crystal ball from under their desks when refusing entry to the 6000?



So in 8 years 6000 EU nationals were dumb enough to try to enter the UK with drugs, guns, counterfeit money etc etc..........and SWAG bags ............

The EU population of our prisons supply all the evidence I need .........along with anecdotal info like this .......

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/840643/Police-arrests-Romanian-figures-crime-wave

https://news.sky.com/story/romanian-crime-boss-florin-ghinea-arrested-outside-gym-in-watford-11473507



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-30 8:22 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 30 December 2018 8:07 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM


What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.



Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........


Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-30 8:10 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 30 December 2018 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM

I'm afraid it comes across to me as even more unreasonable in your case, as you are the one who is relying on Spain to turn a blind eye to your intention to over-stay in Spain by applying Nelson's eye to the law. Yet you accuse others of hypocrisy? One law for Dave, when it suits Dave, but Dave's law of total exclusion for everyone else, because that suits Dave? And you consider that reasonable and democratic? Physician, cure thyself!


Well it would to "Deluded of Sussex" ...........

I go to Spain as a tourist........

Not to ROB, RAPE, or MURDER.........Now try using what's left of your thinking instrument to work out the difference Brian ..........



usersnowie
Posted: 30 December 2018 9:06 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........


So, we are talking ideologies are we?

What us remainders forget Brian is that Brexiters seem to think that Britannia still rules the waves, and that when we are outside one of the main trading blocks in the world, all 27 of the remaining EU countries will let them behave just as they want to, with no regard for other people’s rules, whilst enforcing a series of arbitrary and bigotted rules ( largely against those 27 countries) that will come to define the “post Brexit barely United Kingdom.

Maybe Spain will be more compliant, I don’t know how many Spanish nationals live and work here, but I wouldn’t bet on it making much difference to Spain’s attitude to lingering Brits.

Snowie

Edited by snowie 2018-12-30 9:10 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 30 December 2018 9:46 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM


What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.



Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........

What a load of guff. Instead of making selective quotes editing out the bits not quite fitting in with your agenda, why don't you post in full context?

However i've no idea why you're now suddenly so concerned about EU regulations. Ironic that you want to use them to facilitate your own falsely claiming a Spanish 'residential' address, the illegalities of which will eventually catch up on you. You'd gain some credibility and a little more respect if you began practising what you preach rather than the double standards you hold.
userBulletguy
Posted: 30 December 2018 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM

I'm afraid it comes across to me as even more unreasonable in your case, as you are the one who is relying on Spain to turn a blind eye to your intention to over-stay in Spain by applying Nelson's eye to the law. Yet you accuse others of hypocrisy? One law for Dave, when it suits Dave, but Dave's law of total exclusion for everyone else, because that suits Dave? And you consider that reasonable and democratic? Physician, cure thyself!


Well it would to "Deluded of Sussex" ...........

I go to Spain as a con-merchant........

Jumping through hoops is hard "work".........Now try using what's left of your thinking instrument to work out the difference Brian ..........

Fixed that for you.
userpelmetman
Posted: 30 December 2018 9:59 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-30 9:06 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........


So, we are talking ideologies are we?



As you're a Socialist and a Remoaner.............Do you really want to talk about dumb a*se ideologies? ..........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-30 10:01 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 30 December 2018 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-30 9:46 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM


What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.



Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........

What a load of guff. Instead of making selective quotes editing out the bits not quite fitting in with your agenda, why don't you post in full context?

However i've no idea why you're now suddenly so concerned about EU regulations. Ironic that you want to use them to facilitate your own falsely claiming a Spanish 'residential' address, the illegalities of which will eventually catch up on you. You'd gain some credibility and a little more respect if you began practising what you preach rather than the double standards you hold.


I don't need any lessons about practicing what I preach from our resident defender of perverts ..........





Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-30 10:02 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 30 December 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-30 9:06 PM


Maybe Spain will be more compliant, I don’t know how many Spanish nationals live and work here, but I wouldn’t bet on it making much difference to Spain’s attitude to lingering Brits.

Snowie


I will follow the rules that Spain applies to non EU citizens .........and its pretty evident they are more tedious than onerous ...........

But no more tedious than dealing with whining Remoaners .........

userBulletguy
Posted: 31 December 2018 1:23 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-30 10:00 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-30 9:46 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM


What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.



Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........

What a load of guff. Instead of making selective quotes editing out the bits not quite fitting in with your agenda, why don't you post in full context?

However i've no idea why you're now suddenly so concerned about EU regulations. Ironic that you want to use them to facilitate your own falsely claiming a Spanish 'residential' address, the illegalities of which will eventually catch up on you. You'd gain some credibility and a little more respect if you began practising what you preach rather than the double standards you hold.


I don't need any lessons about practicing what I preach from our resident defender of perverts ..........

That's twice i've seen you posting this libellous allegation without one shred of evidence. I suggest you retract it.
userpelmetman
Posted: 31 December 2018 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-31 1:23 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 10:00 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-30 9:46 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM


What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.



Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........

What a load of guff. Instead of making selective quotes editing out the bits not quite fitting in with your agenda, why don't you post in full context?

However i've no idea why you're now suddenly so concerned about EU regulations. Ironic that you want to use them to facilitate your own falsely claiming a Spanish 'residential' address, the illegalities of which will eventually catch up on you. You'd gain some credibility and a little more respect if you began practising what you preach rather than the double standards you hold.


I don't need any lessons about practicing what I preach from our resident defender of perverts ..........

That's twice i've seen you posting this libellous allegation without one shred of evidence. I suggest you retract it.


If you agree that the Rochdale perverts should be deported ...........

Then I'll retract my assertion .......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/26/sajid-javid-defends-deportation-of-grooming-gang-members

So where do you stand then Bullet.........with Sajid Javid or against him????? ........

ie........Prove that my assertion is wrong.......then I'll retract it .........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-31 8:56 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 31 December 2018 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM
What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.

Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........
If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......
But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........

I notice you say allow. Correct, we allow that because HMG has decided to do so.
The EU can't confiscate passports, because it is not a nation state and does not issue them. I'm surprised you hadn't noticed that, since you (presumably) hold one! So no, it isn't going to happen, but not for the ill-informed reason you advance. Back to school, Dave!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 31 December 2018 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:28 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM
I'm afraid it comes across to me as even more unreasonable in your case, as you are the one who is relying on Spain to turn a blind eye to your intention to over-stay in Spain by applying Nelson's eye to the law. Yet you accuse others of hypocrisy? One law for Dave, when it suits Dave, but Dave's law of total exclusion for everyone else, because that suits Dave? And you consider that reasonable and democratic? Physician, cure thyself!

Well it would to "Deluded of Sussex" ...........
I go to Spain as a tourist........
Not to ROB, RAPE, or MURDER.........Now try using what's left of your thinking instrument to work out the difference Brian ..........

So how then do you want to deal with those from outside the EU who commit crimes? It isn't as though they are all as white as the driven snow, is it?

The only answer you could put forward then would be to keep them all out, just in case some turn out to be wrong-uns, wouldn't it?

But then, I understand there are even the odd few ethnically pure Brits in jail as well. What of them, or is your increasingly indefensible view that only "pure bred" Brits are allowed to commit crime and occupy our prisons?

If you want complete freedom from criminals, you will have to accept that everyone (except, presumably, Dave Pelmet) should be eliminated from the gene pool to ensure purity. Despite this, you seek to protest that you are a democrat?
userpelmetman
Posted: 31 December 2018 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-31 10:47 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM
What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.

Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........
If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......
But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........

I notice you say allow. Correct, we allow that because HMG has decided to do so.
The EU can't confiscate passports, because it is not a nation state and does not issue them. I'm surprised you hadn't noticed that, since you (presumably) hold one! So no, it isn't going to happen, but not for the ill-informed reason you advance. Back to school, Dave!


Due to article 27........HMG hasn't any real choice does it Brian? ..........

BTW the EU could "allow" its members to confiscate the passports of all those convicted of serious crimes ..........

But preserving their perverse "free movement for scumbags" ideology is far more important than any preventing victims isn't it? ..........





Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-31 11:16 AM
userpelmetman
Posted: 31 December 2018 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-31 11:04 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:28 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM
I'm afraid it comes across to me as even more unreasonable in your case, as you are the one who is relying on Spain to turn a blind eye to your intention to over-stay in Spain by applying Nelson's eye to the law. Yet you accuse others of hypocrisy? One law for Dave, when it suits Dave, but Dave's law of total exclusion for everyone else, because that suits Dave? And you consider that reasonable and democratic? Physician, cure thyself!

Well it would to "Deluded of Sussex" ...........
I go to Spain as a tourist........
Not to ROB, RAPE, or MURDER.........Now try using what's left of your thinking instrument to work out the difference Brian ..........

So how then do you want to deal with those from outside the EU who commit crimes? It isn't as though they are all as white as the driven snow, is it?

The only answer you could put forward then would be to keep them all out, just in case some turn out to be wrong-uns, wouldn't it?

But then, I understand there are even the odd few ethnically pure Brits in jail as well. What of them, or is your increasingly indefensible view that only "pure bred" Brits are allowed to commit crime and occupy our prisons?

If you want complete freedom from criminals, you will have to accept that everyone (except, presumably, Dave Pelmet) should be eliminated from the gene pool to ensure purity. Despite this, you seek to protest that you are a democrat?


It's not rocket science Brian.........I've already said........confiscate the passport of those convicted of serious crimes ............

But I'm not a complete harda*se ..........

I would allow them to have them back after 10 years IF they haven't committed further crimes .........



userViolet1956
Posted: 31 December 2018 1:20 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


2000500100252525


Regulation 27 allows us to exclude people convicted of serious offences if there is a risk they would reoffend even if the risk is a low one Dave. If their crime(s) are so serious that to tolerate even that low risk would have potentially serious consequences they can be excluded or deported.

See Home Office Guidance in the following link from page 13 onwards.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/668087/EEA-Decisions-taken-on-grounds-of-public-policy-3.0EXT.pdf

Why would you want to exclude or remove them if there was no risk? Sometimes people commit one-off serious crimes and do their time in jail. Why should they also have their right of free movement taken away? For some that would not be an extra punishment but for others it would be; where is the fairness in that?
userBarryd999
Posted: 31 December 2018 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


Lord of the posts

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This is just bonkers. EU nationals do not commit any more crime than British nationals. There are always going to be elements of criminals where ever they come from. One things for certain though Brexit will just bring chaos rather than control, a lower standard of immigrant from outside of Europe who are probably prepared to accept worse conditions and pay than the EU neighbours you just sent packing and wide spread unemployment. All of which will lead to more crime. Brexit is about to turn this nation into a much poorer place and with that comes more crime. Does it really matter who is committing it?

Edited by Barryd999 2018-12-31 1:32 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 31 December 2018 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


Legendary contributor

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pelmetman - 2018-12-31 8:50 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-31 1:23 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 10:00 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-30 9:46 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM


What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.



Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........

What a load of guff. Instead of making selective quotes editing out the bits not quite fitting in with your agenda, why don't you post in full context?

However i've no idea why you're now suddenly so concerned about EU regulations. Ironic that you want to use them to facilitate your own falsely claiming a Spanish 'residential' address, the illegalities of which will eventually catch up on you. You'd gain some credibility and a little more respect if you began practising what you preach rather than the double standards you hold.


I don't need any lessons about practicing what I preach from our resident defender of perverts ..........

That's twice i've seen you posting this libellous allegation without one shred of evidence. I suggest you retract it.


If you agree that the Rochdale perverts should be deported ...........

Then I'll retract my assertion .......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/26/sajid-javid-defends-deportation-of-grooming-gang-members

So where do you stand then Bullet.........with Sajid Javid or against him????? ........

ie........Prove that my assertion is wrong.......then I'll retract it .........

Sorry Dave but i'm not here to barter with you. You overstepped the mark and made a very serious defamatory allegation on a public forum which i asked you to retract. That you believe you can strike some kind of 'deal' using the above to deflect and hope to wriggle your way out of a simple retraction (which would have enabled you to move on), is gross beyond belief.
userBulletguy
Posted: 31 December 2018 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


Legendary contributor

Posts: 9448
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


Brian Kirby - 2018-12-31 11:04 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:28 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM
I'm afraid it comes across to me as even more unreasonable in your case, as you are the one who is relying on Spain to turn a blind eye to your intention to over-stay in Spain by applying Nelson's eye to the law. Yet you accuse others of hypocrisy? One law for Dave, when it suits Dave, but Dave's law of total exclusion for everyone else, because that suits Dave? And you consider that reasonable and democratic? Physician, cure thyself!

Well it would to "Deluded of Sussex" ...........
I go to Spain as a tourist........
Not to ROB, RAPE, or MURDER.........Now try using what's left of your thinking instrument to work out the difference Brian ..........

So how then do you want to deal with those from outside the EU who commit crimes? It isn't as though they are all as white as the driven snow, is it?

The only answer you could put forward then would be to keep them all out, just in case some turn out to be wrong-uns, wouldn't it?

But then, I understand there are even the odd few ethnically pure Brits in jail as well. What of them, or is your increasingly indefensible view that only "pure bred" Brits are allowed to commit crime and occupy our prisons?

If you want complete freedom from criminals, you will have to accept that everyone (except, presumably, Dave Pelmet) should be eliminated from the gene pool to ensure purity.
Despite this, you seek to protest that you are a democrat?

White supremacist ideology.
userpelmetman
Posted: 1 January 2019 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25383
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2018-12-31 2:17 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-31 8:50 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-31 1:23 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 10:00 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-30 9:46 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-30 8:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-30 10:22 AM


What you're really complaining about is the concept of reasonableness. Your remedy implies keeping them all out, so that no-one who might later turn criminal could be allowed entry. That would be unreasonable, because the only way to completely eliminate criminality is to completely eliminate people, meaning both you and I, and even Veronica, would have to go on the pyre.



Nope ........What I'm complaining about is the unreasonable concept that we should be allowed to let in the dross of Europe ..........

If the EU confiscated the passports of all those who have committed serious crime........then I might be inclined to think they're putting common sense before allowing their scum to travel so they can rob, rape and murder us common folk .......

But that ain't going to happen.....because you ideological folk put your common sense on the pyre 40 years ago ...........

What a load of guff. Instead of making selective quotes editing out the bits not quite fitting in with your agenda, why don't you post in full context?

However i've no idea why you're now suddenly so concerned about EU regulations. Ironic that you want to use them to facilitate your own falsely claiming a Spanish 'residential' address, the illegalities of which will eventually catch up on you. You'd gain some credibility and a little more respect if you began practising what you preach rather than the double standards you hold.


I don't need any lessons about practicing what I preach from our resident defender of perverts ..........

That's twice i've seen you posting this libellous allegation without one shred of evidence. I suggest you retract it.


If you agree that the Rochdale perverts should be deported ...........

Then I'll retract my assertion .......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/26/sajid-javid-defends-deportation-of-grooming-gang-members

So where do you stand then Bullet.........with Sajid Javid or against him????? ........

ie........Prove that my assertion is wrong.......then I'll retract it .........

Sorry Dave but i'm not here to barter with you. You overstepped the mark and made a very serious defamatory allegation on a public forum which i asked you to retract. That you believe you can strike some kind of 'deal' using the above to deflect and hope to wriggle your way out of a simple retraction (which would have enabled you to move on), is gross beyond belief.


It's only defamatory if I'm wrong ..........

You could quite easily prove me wrong..........you chose not to.........so I see no reason to change my assumption ........

userpelmetman
Posted: 1 January 2019 9:30 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25383
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Barryd999 - 2018-12-31 1:31 PM

This is just bonkers. EU nationals do not commit any more crime than British nationals. There are always going to be elements of criminals where ever they come from. One things for certain though Brexit will just bring chaos rather than control, a lower standard of immigrant from outside of Europe who are probably prepared to accept worse conditions and pay than the EU neighbours you just sent packing and wide spread unemployment. All of which will lead to more crime. Brexit is about to turn this nation into a much poorer place and with that comes more crime. Does it really matter who is committing it?


As you say we have enough home grown criminals........So we don't need to import more do we? .........

userpelmetman
Posted: 1 January 2019 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25383
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Violet1956 - 2018-12-31 1:20 PM

Regulation 27 allows us to exclude people convicted of serious offences if there is a risk they would reoffend even if the risk is a low one Dave. If their crime(s) are so serious that to tolerate even that low risk would have potentially serious consequences they can be excluded or deported.

See Home Office Guidance in the following link from page 13 onwards.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/668087/EEA-Decisions-taken-on-grounds-of-public-policy-3.0EXT.pdf

Why would you want to exclude or remove them if there was no risk? Sometimes people commit one-off serious crimes and do their time in jail. Why should they also have their right of free movement taken away? For some that would not be an extra punishment but for others it would be; where is the fairness in that?


So you know better than Dominic Raab?...... Who has "First hand" experience of the EU preventing us from deporting THEIR criminals ............

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/

Where is the fairness in that ? .........

userViolet1956
Posted: 1 January 2019 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: 21st century UK?
 


2000500100252525


I just drew your attention to the Home Office guidance on the criteria to be fulfilled in order to justify deporatation or refusal of entry Dave. Dominic Raab's beef may be with the requirement to prove they are a present threat. There's not enough detail regarding the cases he mentions to show why the rules stopped them from being deported. I've already said that people, including you perhaps, think that the requirement to show that they are a present threat is not right and that the seriousness of someone's offence alone should send them packing..
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