Violet1956 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Would so dearly love to avoid all imports from China. However, having to do some shopping for things we need for the new house I find it is almost impossible to avoid them. This behemoth has to be curtailed. It will cost everyone of us but I believe it is worth it in the end. The pleas from Huawei that they are a company independent from the state are a joke. No individual or corporation based in China is free from interference from the Chinese government. Trump may be a meglomanical naricissist but on this issue he's spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 All i know about Huawei is apparently they were first out with 5G, hence Trumps annoyance. Doesn't bother me as i don't have a fancy phone. We import vast amounts of stuff from them £44.7 billion worth in 2018, mostly electrical, where we only exported £22.6 billion. US is it's largest customer and it suited Trump to use cheap Chinese steel in preference to US steel to build his ugly towers. We need to up our game in manufacturing and invest more instead of selling it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Whilst I don't disagree, we can't really blame China for being successful... It is the West's governments/movers & shakers who have freely allowed our production and manufacturing, of various levels, to get out sourced abroad.. There seems to be is very little that doesn't come directly from, or that doesn't have internal components that originate in, China. (I seem to recall reading a while back that even China had been "outsourcing" to countries with even cheaper labour costs!). So unless "we", the UK, are going to start producing our own "stuff" (highly unlikely), it is probably a bit late in the day (as in several decades too late!) for us to do much about it.. :-S Hinckely Point C anyone....? (sorry, I crossed your post BG) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Not only would it be impossible to compete now but Brexit threatens to finish off whats left of our core manufacturing. I suspect specialist niche stuff we are particularly good at will survive but not much else. Not only that. People might not be happy buying stuff from China but as said its everywhere and I suspect their dislike of China would soon fly out of the window when they realise how much something locally manufactured would cost. If anything demand for cheap Chinese stuff will go up once the effects of Covid and Brexit kick in and people are much worse off. Hard times ahead. For some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 No matter how much you no hope negative anti independent Britain lefties rabbit on on, it is nothing to do with Brexit or Covid 19.It is all to do with cheap labour costs and a totalitarian state that wants to destroy competition and dominate world trade. And their Virus is probably helping them . Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 pepe63 - 2020-07-13 5:01 PM Whilst I don't disagree, we can't really blame China for being successful... It is the West's governments/movers & shakers who have freely allowed our production and manufacturing, of various levels, to get out sourced abroad.. There seems to be is very little that doesn't come directly from, or that doesn't have internal components that originate in, China. Absolutely right. A total absence of future planning by countries in " the west ". Moving so much of our manufacturing across the world seeking cheap labour / lower prices and higher profits, has come back to bite us. From being a world centre of manufacturing the U.K. has become simply a vast warehouse for foreign imports. Our only major growth industries for years now have been coffee bars ( with imported coffee ), nail bars, and manual carwashes. Never mind though, we are told our future is brilliant - so I will look forward to that. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 pepe63 - 2020-07-13 5:01 PM Whilst I don't disagree, we can't really blame China for being successful... It is the West's governments/movers & shakers who have freely allowed our production and manufacturing, of various levels, to get out sourced abroad.. There seems to be is very little that doesn't come directly from, or that doesn't have internal components that originate in, China. (I seem to recall reading a while back that even China had been "outsourcing" to countries with even cheaper labour costs!). So unless "we", the UK, are going to start producing our own "stuff" (highly unlikely), it is probably a bit late in the day (as in several decades too late!) for us to do much about it.. :-S Hinckely Point C anyone....? (sorry, I crossed your post BG) Hinkley is a classic example.......built by China, owned and run by France! So much for "taking back control"!! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 So it’s...keep buying British Motorhomes then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 malc d - 2020-07-13 5:31 PM pepe63 - 2020-07-13 5:01 PM Whilst I don't disagree, we can't really blame China for being successful... It is the West's governments/movers & shakers who have freely allowed our production and manufacturing, of various levels, to get out sourced abroad.. There seems to be is very little that doesn't come directly from, or that doesn't have internal components that originate in, China. From being a world centre of manufacturing the U.K. has become simply a vast warehouse for foreign imports. Our only major growth industries for years now have been coffee bars ( with imported coffee ), nail bars, and manual carwashes. Never mind though, we are told our future is brilliant - so I will look forward to that. ;-) Not forgetting that other growth industry, Poundstretcher stores for the millions of proles. All stocked with ....err.....lots of stuff from China! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 I agree with most of everything that has been said. However, part of me believes it is not too late to curb the excesses of what I believe is a pariah state that needs to be defeated. Not defeated in the old sense of going to war but by economic reforms in all the countries that China has infiltrated with its cheap goods. The regime in China is the antithesis of Western democracy and since we have all benefited enormously from the freedom that brings we should treat the threat to that democracy as a matter of urgency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 If we had want to embrace future planning in the west , then we need to start looking at population numbers. The only country to have given it serious thought was China. Population,water food.....thats what the fighting will be over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 thebishbus - 2020-07-13 5:30 PM No matter how much you no hope negative anti independent Britain lefties rabbit on on, it is nothing to do with Brexit or Covid 19.It is all to do with cheap labour costs and a totalitarian state that wants to destroy competition and dominate world trade. And their Virus is probably helping them . Brian B. If that is directed at me firstly I am not a lefty but thats irrelevant really. Brexit is however very relevant if you are thinking of taking on China and have some kind of British boom in manufacturing. We just made that a sh1t load harder by shooting ourselves on the face. Even the Brexiteers own tame economists predicted Brexit would see most of it off. I think the words they used that those that worked in manufacturing would just have to get jobs in Marketing or Graphic design. Marketing what? Chinese smartphones probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I'm sure that no-one thinks that we could slay the mighty Chinese dragon on our own, or even with the help of a few friends, but actually the Chinese dragon may not be the biggest dragon in town. India and the other South East Asian countries can more than match the Chinese, and have the access to low cost labour, but they are not trying to buy the world , or subdue it, whilst they set about doing deals to trade with the western world. Living in France we are appalled at the amount of stuff on sale here that is made in China, in almost every sphere of the retail trade. Presumably this is because China has favourable trade terms with the EU, and foresight does not seem to be a strong suite for the EU, so as long as Germany can sell it's subsidised motor vehicles to everyone and France keeps getting enormous subsidies for the farmers and fishermen then the EU is content and cares not about what might happen in the future. Changes are already under way, Australia is having a go at them, as is the USA and Canada, so there should be no forgone conclusions, and if EDF or the UK goverment should decide to act against Hinckley Point the Chinese can hardly dig it up and take it back to China can they, so maybe we should stay vigilant and watch what happens. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeco Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 The Chinese have been incredibly successful at dominating the world economy by flooding the world with cheap manufactured product. We all loved it as all we saw were bargains. There is no free rides in this world and now it is payback time. Here in AU the problem is that you are hard pressed to buy anything that is either manufactured contains components made in China. I am prepared to pay double for products not made in China to slow down the Chineses influence but the problem is it is usually more than double. We in the west have become conditioned to basically buying any amount of consumer goods whenever as they are so cheap. As I see it we need to encourage a shift in buyer attitudes to buy quality at a quality price made locally and not to change regularly thus amortising the higher initial cost over a longer period like we once did. My biggest fear is after they have constrained the west economically they will then look to flex their military muscles. They have already commenced internally with the Yighurs now HK and possibly next will be Taiwan. I have been trying to avoid Chinese product for a long time now as a small protest. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 I think our problem is Xi Jinping, not Chine per se. I also think it a bit unreasonable to lay the blame on governments alone, as it is mainly business that has offshored most of its production to China - or elsewhere if it is suitably cheap. The weakness of governments is that they like to be popular, even when they should risk unpopularity. Abundant supplies of cheap goods in shops is now the opiate of the people, and we just queue up to vote for those who facilitate it. It isn't just China, because we have sold off our infrastructure to foreign investors, including state actors and sovereign wealth funds. At the same time, we have become dependent on long supply chains for much of what we eat and consume. We have a population that we cannot sustain from our own resources. All this makes us peculiarly vulnerable to foreign influence so, when Mr Xi breaches his deal with UK over Hong Kong, what do we do? Rub the sleep of complacency from our eyes, and start worrying over the consequences of our previous short-sightedness. Our leaders were complacent in not foreseeing that a Xi might emerge as Chinese leader, but we were all complicit. Back in the 60's Japan had a ministry of Trade and industry: MITI. The role of MITI was to look around the world for items that were in short supply, and to steer Japan's industry toward developing sales in those markets, while shielding the Japanese market from foreign competition. It was a kind if public-private partnership that was so successful that the rest of the world, including the US, began to whinge that the Japanese were cheating in the way they conducted their world trade. The Japanese merely thought it sensible and logical. We, OTOH, generally carried on making what our markets demanded, and sold what of that we could abroad, with as little concession as possible to foreign market preferences. Familiar? Do we learn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 thebishbus - 2020-07-13 5:30 PM No matter how much you no hope negative anti independent Britain lefties rabbit on on, it is nothing to do with Brexit or Covid 19.It is all to do with cheap labour costs and a totalitarian state that wants to destroy competition and dominate world trade. And their Virus is probably helping them . Brian B. Germany and Switzerland haven't become so prosperous through cheap labour costs. But its a convenient excuse for bad management. The much maligned British Car workers are doing very well since they got rid of their English management. At least until they are scuppered by Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Violet1956 - 2020-07-13 4:33 PM Trump may be a meglomanical naricissist but on this issue he's spot on. Except that Trump has never showed any real concern for their human rights. Until Jinping threatened to replace Trump as leader of the worlds biggest economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Archiesgrandad - 2020-07-13 10:42 PM I'm sure that no-one thinks that we could slay the mighty Chinese dragon on our own, AGD Oh I dunno, some of our Britannia Rules the Waves Brexiteers might think so (lol) Who needs the EU when you have got BoJo on your side *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 thebishbus - 2020-07-13 5:30 PM No matter how much you no hope negative anti independent Britain lefties rabbit on on, it is nothing to do with Brexit or Covid 19.It is all to do with cheap labour costs and a totalitarian state that wants to destroy competition and dominate world trade. And their Virus is probably helping them . Brian B. Well, yes and no! :-) It is also to do with what we have done to ourselves. This may be a little "left field" for some, but it is an interesting, and somewhat sobering, read. https://tinyurl.com/y8znlgyp Just try to set your red / blue glasses aside when reading! :-D It is far from presenting the full picture, and there is some degree of conjecture, but the facts presented - which are easily checked - reveal something of the extent to which we have "sold the family silver" to the highest bidder without adequate consideration of the long-term consequences for ourselves. As is now apparent, one of those long-term consequences is that we have lost much of our ability to defend our national interests, because too many of our national interests are no longer owned by us. Short term gains yes, but for whom, and at whose ultimate expense? After all, if we are overly dependent on China and its cheap products, whose fault is that? Ours, or the Chinese? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-14 5:38 PM thebishbus - 2020-07-13 5:30 PM No matter how much you no hope negative anti independent Britain lefties rabbit on on, it is nothing to do with Brexit or Covid 19.It is all to do with cheap labour costs and a totalitarian state that wants to destroy competition and dominate world trade. And their Virus is probably helping them . Brian B. Well, yes and no! :-) It is also to do with what we have done to ourselves. This may be a little "left field" for some, but it is an interesting, and somewhat sobering, read. https://tinyurl.com/y8znlgyp Just try to set your red / blue glasses aside when reading! :-D That link makes an interesting read and shows how meaningless "taking back control" is when we've sold so much off over the years it would cost trillions to buy back....assuming the owners would sell of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-07-14 5:38 PM thebishbus - 2020-07-13 5:30 PM No matter how much you no hope negative anti independent Britain lefties rabbit on on, it is nothing to do with Brexit or Covid 19.It is all to do with cheap labour costs and a totalitarian state that wants to destroy competition and dominate world trade. And their Virus is probably helping them . Brian B. Well, yes and no! :-) It is also to do with what we have done to ourselves. This may be a little "left field" for some, but it is an interesting, and somewhat sobering, read. https://tinyurl.com/y8znlgyp Just try to set your red / blue glasses aside when reading! :-D It is far from presenting the full picture, and there is some degree of conjecture, but the facts presented - which are easily checked - reveal something of the extent to which we have "sold the family silver" to the highest bidder without adequate consideration of the long-term consequences for ourselves. As is now apparent, one of those long-term consequences is that we have lost much of our ability to defend our national interests, because too many of our national interests are no longer owned by us. Short term gains yes, but for whom, and at whose ultimate expense? After all, if we are overly dependent on China and its cheap products, whose fault is that? Ours, or the Chinese? Good link Pity it can't be done in 3 word slogans for pelmethead :-S Shows also why we can't cut basic wages any further because they don't cover rents as it is - so it has to be made up with housing benefits - and e are not getting the taxes to pay for it with so many of the companies registered in Her Majesty's Tax Havens - the same companies BoJo is now giving £1,000 for each worker they would have employed anyway - and any other fraudster who cares to claim it. Also worth noting that the German supermarkets Lidl and Aldi who ave trounced the English supermarkets have not done it by cheap labour. Last time I looked Aldi workers got paid more than Sainsbury workers - and I'm talking about Sainsbury's workers, not the overpaid CEO singing 'we're in the money' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 The Squad are on it ... Big time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-07-14 6:10 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-07-14 5:38 PM thebishbus - 2020-07-13 5:30 PM No matter how much you no hope negative anti independent Britain lefties rabbit on on, it is nothing to do with Brexit or Covid 19.It is all to do with cheap labour costs and a totalitarian state that wants to destroy competition and dominate world trade. And their Virus is probably helping them . Brian B. Well, yes and no! :-) It is also to do with what we have done to ourselves. This may be a little "left field" for some, but it is an interesting, and somewhat sobering, read. https://tinyurl.com/y8znlgyp Just try to set your red / blue glasses aside when reading! :-D That link makes an interesting read and shows how meaningless "taking back control" is when we've sold so much off over the years it would cost trillions to buy back....assuming the owners would sell of course! I also found it a bit scary after seeing how much debt BoJo is racking up by giving subsidies to these tax avoiding foreign companies, like the £1,000 for every worker they would have re employed anyway, and all the fraudsters that will claim it. Now borrowed over 100% of GDP -8-) not income, but turnover - most of it going to foreign companies paying their taxes elsewhere. Who is going to repay BoJo's debts 8-) Sure we would have heard a lot more about it if it was Jeremy Corbyn borrowing on this scale and chucking it about like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Even more worrying when you try to see where all our borrowed money is going 8-) "This stinks. It stinks worse than any of the other carrion this government has buried. This is not just about value for money, important as that is. ... Transparent, competitive tendering is a crucial defence against cronyism and corruption. It is essential to integrity in public life and public trust in politics. But the government doesn’t seem to care. As the scandal over Cummings’ trip to Durham shows, its strategy is to brazen out disgrace until public outrage subsides. We know it cheats and lies. It knows that we know, and it doesn’t care." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/15/coronavirus-contracts-government-transparency-pandemic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 John52 - 2020-07-15 6:42 AM Even more worrying when you try to see where all our borrowed money is going 8-) "This stinks. It stinks worse than any of the other carrion this government has buried. This is not just about value for money, important as that is. ... Transparent, competitive tendering is a crucial defence against cronyism and corruption. It is essential to integrity in public life and public trust in politics. But the government doesn’t seem to care. As the scandal over Cummings’ trip to Durham shows, its strategy is to brazen out disgrace until public outrage subsides. We know it cheats and lies. It knows that we know, and it doesn’t care." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/15/coronavirus-contracts-government-transparency-pandemic No way ... The Guardian attacking The Tories ... Cant believe it ... The gullible monkeys lap it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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