Barryd999 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html All checks of goods and passengers will be restablished immediately as will SPS, veterinary checks and default safety customs declarations/checks. Goodbye M20, goodbye M26; hello £250m lost per day to the UK economy. How dare they take back control of their borders! That was our idea! Dont they know who we are? Except its not our idea now apparently. Our plan is just to not bother with checks and let everything through. So much for taking back control of our borders then. There is just one floor in that idea though of waving everything through. Under WTO rules which the Brexiteers seem to love so much if you do that for one border or nation you have to do it for absolutely everyone you deal with at all ports and airports. Ooops. Still. We will have our blue passports. Pity we wont be able to get anywhere near our ports to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 There are other ferry routes Barry :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-18 9:02 AM There are other ferry routes Barry :D ......... There is always a way round. But it adds to costs and delays. Which wipes out profits and puts factories out of business - the very people we need making things we can sell abroad if we are ever going to stop the rising Tory Debt Mountain, and pay off what they have borrowed to buy votes from the DUP >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 John52 - 2018-10-18 9:08 AM pelmetman - 2018-10-18 9:02 AM There are other ferry routes Barry :D ......... There is always a way round. But it adds to costs and delays. Which wipes out profits and puts factories out of business - the very people we need making things we can sell abroad if we are ever going to stop the rising Tory Debt Mountain, and pay off what they have borrowed to buy votes from the DUP >:-) Seeing as most of the manufactures of car parts are in the cheap EU labour economies, then they'd be going out of their way to pass through France *-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-18 9:02 AM There are other ferry routes Barry :D ......... To where? Is there to be some magical entry point into Europe where they turn a blind eye or summut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Sounds good to me ... Time and again we've seen security needs tightening up ... If Germany can reintroduce borders then so can anyone else ... All those countries that trade through WTO seem to manage with borders ... We obviously being little old Blighty will struggle though ... Lordy the Borey borefest carries on and on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-10-18 10:23 AM Sounds good to me ... Time and again we've seen security needs tightening up ... If Germany can reintroduce borders then so can anyone else ... All those countries that trade through WTO seem to manage with borders ... We obviously being little old Blighty will struggle though ... Lordy the Borey borefest carries on and on Sounds good? How does it sound good? Sounds to me that the EU will be controlling their borders but we won't. I would take Brexit back and ask for your money back if I were you. You've been sold a pup. You won't though. If the Brexit leaders said you had to wander around Huddersfield for the rest of your life dressed only in a pink nappy singing the I'm a teapot" song to have Brexit you would agree. Actually don't you do that anyway? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 2:11 PM antony1969 - 2018-10-18 10:23 AM Sounds good to me ... Time and again we've seen security needs tightening up ... If Germany can reintroduce borders then so can anyone else ... All those countries that trade through WTO seem to manage with borders ... We obviously being little old Blighty will struggle though ... Lordy the Borey borefest carries on and on Sounds good? How does it sound good? Sounds to me that the EU will be controlling their borders but we won't. I would take Brexit back and ask for your money back if I were you. You've been sold a pup. You won't though. If the Brexit leaders said you had to wander around Huddersfield for the rest of your life dressed only in a pink nappy singing the I'm a teapot" song to have Brexit you would agree. Actually don't you do that anyway? :lol: Your talking in riddles ... You've previously stated that we won't leave with a no deal because doing so is not legal ... Now you post up what the French will do in the event of a no deal ... Are we now able to have a legal no deal that you said wasn't possible ??? ... Why won't we be able to control our borders as others do ??? ... As for singing that song I've never done that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 9:11 AM pelmetman - 2018-10-18 9:02 AM There are other ferry routes Barry :D ......... To where? Is there to be some magical entry point into Europe where they turn a blind eye or summut? It's only a visa Barry ;-) .......... Maybe the thought of it has got you surrender monkeys shaking in yer boots *-) .......... As far as I'm concerned if the Frogs want to play silly buggers and feck up their tourist trade......that's their problem >:-) ......... It's curious though how they didn't demand visas when they wanted us to save their Ar*e in WW1 or WW2 ;-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Shame they were less interested on proper checks when thousands of illegal economic migrants were flooding through on their way here and other countries innit? I suppose that in the true spirit of the EU it was easier for them to turn a blind eye and pass their problems on to their neighbours and now, in the true spirit of the EU it might suit them to be as difficult as possible to the UK in the true style that only the French know how. Still, always look on the bright side, with us out of the EU their share of the EU budget will hopefully increase and there is a certain poetic justice and irony in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Hi, Doesn't France close for business when their Civil Servants (EG; Customs) go on strike. I bet the EU truck drivers will love being trapped in the UK, if our Customs either went on strike, or worked to rule.. Are there enough French Customs officers to do what they threaten. If French diesel is cheaper than UK diesel, we could charge duty on the fuel in their belly tanks. It would be illegal (I think) for us to be selective about which lorries we stop and search, if selected by the driver's nationality. Does not the same apply in France? If the road out of the docks is blocked, it will stop all lorries .that are behind the blockage.. French, German, Polish, Italian. I bet they will love that. Divide and conquer. Whatever ... it seems the French have shown their true colours ... if they are now making threats 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 W3526602 - 2018-10-18 4:05 PM Whatever ... it seems the French have shown their true colours ... if they are now making threats So that's where the Remoaners learnt it - first the Froggies taught the EU and now the Remainers have adopted it. Just as well it don't work innit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Hi Tracker, Good point. Can anyone remind me of any threats the Brexiteers have made? 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 W3526602 - 2018-10-18 4:19 PM Hi Tracker, Good point. Can anyone remind me of any threats the Brexiteers have made? 602 Boris for PM !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-10-18 2:24 PM Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 2:11 PM antony1969 - 2018-10-18 10:23 AM Sounds good to me ... Time and again we've seen security needs tightening up ... If Germany can reintroduce borders then so can anyone else ... All those countries that trade through WTO seem to manage with borders ... We obviously being little old Blighty will struggle though ... Lordy the Borey borefest carries on and on Sounds good? How does it sound good? Sounds to me that the EU will be controlling their borders but we won't. I would take Brexit back and ask for your money back if I were you. You've been sold a pup. You won't though. If the Brexit leaders said you had to wander around Huddersfield for the rest of your life dressed only in a pink nappy singing the I'm a teapot" song to have Brexit you would agree. Actually don't you do that anyway? :lol: Your talking in riddles ... Now you post up what the French will do in the event of a no deal ... God....Kindergarten time again. Why do you always need someone to read for you? *-) In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, the social security coordination rules set out in Regulation 883/04 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the coordination of social security systems and its regulation application 987/09 will no longer apply between the United Kingdom and the Member States, including France. The withdrawal will therefore have consequences for the opening and determination of the social rights of British nationals and their dependents, as well as for the determination of their eligibility for social minima. Legislative adaptations are necessary to draw the consequences. (6) controls on goods and passengers to and from the United Kingdom and veterinary and phytosanitary controls on import from the United Kingdom. A withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union without agreement would imply a reinstatement of the checks on goods and passengers to and from the United Kingdom. It would also involve a reinstatement of veterinary and phytosanitary controls at the borders of the European Union for live animals, plants and animal and plant products from the United Kingdom, or from other third countries but transiting through the European Union. United Kingdom. Imports of this kind from third countries to the European Union are indeed controlled at borders because they can be a source of contamination and danger for human health, animal health and plant health (agricultural crops and natural flora). Veterinary and phytosanitary border controls are governed by European regulations 10( * ) and must be carried out in dedicated installations, the border control posts, which have an approval issued by the European Commission. Veterinary and phytosanitary border controls are governed by a European regulation 11( * ) and must be carried out in dedicated installations, the border control posts, which have an approval issued by the European Commission. Should derogations be allowed under European Union law, a legislative provision would be needed to comply with these derogations. 7 ° the carrying out of road transport operations of goods or persons on French territory, including transit, by natural or legal persons established in the United Kingdom. The consequences of a withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union without agreement would be particularly important in the road transport of persons and goods, whose rules of access to the profession and access to markets are defined by the law of the European Union. As regards access to the goods and passenger transport market, Community licenses and authorizations would have no effect in the event of exit without an agreement, and carriers would no longer be able to use them to operate on the territory of the Community. the other party for international operations. Cabotage would also be prohibited. If the Union does not adopt unilateral contingency measures in this case, the provisions of EU law do not prevent a Member State from adopting measures with regard to a third State. subject not to affect the law of the Union. Legislation would be needed to take such national measures. These national measures would be conditional on the adoption by the United Kingdom of reciprocal measures with regard to national operators. The first article also contains a provision making it possible to adopt by ordinance any other provision that would be necessary to deal with the situation of British nationals residing in France or carrying on business there, as well as legal persons established in the United Kingdom and carrying on business in France. . Lastly, it states that orders may provide that measures which grant British natural or legal persons more favorable treatment than natural or legal persons from third countries are conditional upon the grant of an equivalent status to natural or legal persons. French. The set of measures provided for in the second article of the authorization aims at preserving national interests and the situation of French nationals and other persons to whom Union law prohibits different treatment. Provisions adopted by order on its basis must also be made within twelve months of its publication. The measure provided for in 1 ° of the second article aims at allowing for the taking into account, for the opening and the determination of the social rights, periods of insurance, activities or professional training exercised or carried out in the United Kingdom before the date of its withdrawal from the European Union In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, the social security coordination rules laid down in Regulation 883/04 and its implementing Regulation 987/09 will no longer apply between the United Kingdom and the Member States, whose France. It shows that citizens, especially French, who will leave the UK to live in France will no longer be open to unemployment insurance rights in France based on their periods of activity in the UK, as is currently the case since they rework a minimum period in France. It is proposed to make the necessary arrangements in this regard. Similarly, the calculation of French contributory benefits (old age, invalidity, AT-MP) involving periods of insurance (contributions or residence) in the United Kingdom and France can only be based on national periods. Without a device, the French social security will not be able to take into account the British periods and will therefore be obliged to pay a benefit of a smaller amount. In order to allow this consideration for nationals, particularly French nationals, who were insured in both States at the time of the settlement of their pension rights, it is proposed to make the necessary arrangements. The measure provided for in 2 ° of the second article aims to allow the taking into account of diplomas and professional qualifications acquired or in the course of acquisition in the United Kingdom on the date of its withdrawal from the European Union and professional experience acquired in the United Kingdom. In the absence of an agreement, diplomas and professional qualifications acquired or in the process of being acquired in the United Kingdom on the date of withdrawal, in particular by French nationals, may no longer be recognized. In such a case, these nationals could no longer exercise on French territory. Legislation is required to allow for the recognition of these professional qualifications, diplomas and professional experience gained in the United Kingdom. The measure provided for in 3 ° of the second Article aims to allow the beneficiaries of licenses and authorizations for the transfer of products and materials to the United Kingdom, issued pursuant to Articles L. 2335-10 and L. 2335-18 of the Code. before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom, to continue the supply of these products and equipment until the expiry of the term fixed by these licenses and authorizations. In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, individual licenses and global transfer licenses issued to the United Kingdom pursuant to Article L. 2335-10 of the Defense Code before withdrawal from the United Kingdom Kingdom, will no longer be valid from that date. Indeed, flows to that country will no longer fall under the regime of Article L. 2335-9 of the Defense Code, but that of Article L. 2335-2 of the same Code. The change in the legal basis of these licenses will therefore be necessary. However, such measures are outside the scope of modifications that the administrative authority may make to licenses in progress (on the basis of Article L. 2335-12). Given the estimated number of licenses that will be in effect at that date, ranging from 1,000 to 1,500, the economic impact of a break in these exchanges, and the administrative burden imposed by a new simultaneous adoption of all licenses to the United Kingdom, the order will seek to transform all these intra-Community transfer licenses into export licenses, until the end of their initial validity. In addition, in the event of withdrawal without agreement, transfer authorizations issued before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom to the latter pursuant to Article L. 2335-18 of the Defense Code, concerning space equipment , will also no longer be valid from the exit of the United Kingdom from the European Union. A similar transformation will therefore be necessary. The measure provided for in point 4 of the second Article aims firstly to allow French entities access to the interbank payment and settlement settlement systems of third countries, including the United Kingdom as of its withdrawal, by ensuring the definitive settlement using these systems. Where applicable, certain UK specific payment systems (CLS, CHAPS and CREST) ??will benefit from the protections provided by Directive 98/26 / EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 19 May 1998 on finality. settlement in payment and securities settlement systems. This measure is also intended to allow the continuity of the use of the framework agreements in the field of financial services and the securing of the conditions of execution of the contracts concluded prior to the loss of the recognition of the authorizations of the British entities in France. The International Association of Swaps and Derivatives (ISDA) has sought one or more EU rights to twenty-seven in which to draft its model contract to deal with the legal consequences of withdrawal from the United Kingdom. The High Local Legal Committee worked on the conditions of development of the standard contract in French law, and highlighted the need to modify the law on some very specific points: (i) in French law, the scope of operations eligible for the clearing-termination does not cover spot FX transactions and the sale, purchase, delivery of precious metals or CO2 quota transactions, which is identified as a brake on the development of the contract in French law; (ii) the second amendment concerns the possibility for two parties to a derivative contract to charge capitalized overdue arrears in the event of default. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. In addition, as of the UK withdrawal, UK financial sector institutions will become "third country enterprises". The institutions that benefited from it will lose their "European passport", which is an unprecedented situation. It should be emphasized that for the vast majority of contracts in progress, this does not raise any legal difficulties as they should be transferred to entities governed by EU law, in accordance with the solution recommended by the European regulators. nationals. It is also possible for the subject to be dealt with at Union level. Nevertheless, in the event that operational difficulties come to slow transfers, The measure provided for in point 5 of the second article aims to ensure the continuity of the flow of passengers and goods transport between France and the United Kingdom through the Channel Tunnel and the respect by France of its commitments as a Licensor of the Channel Tunnel. Legislative provisions may be necessary to govern the consequences of the non-validity, as of withdrawal without agreement, of United Kingdom safety clearances to transport operators. It should be noted, however, that operators have been invited by the European Commission and the Ministry of Transport to obtain such authorizations from the competent authorities of one of the Member States of the European Union. Provisions would only be necessary if difficulties were identified in this area, and could be strictly limited to services using the Channel Tunnel. Legislative provisions may also be necessary to address the consequences of the loss of quality, by the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission, of its status as a national safety authority in the event that a solution is not found with the Commission. European Union and the United Kingdom on the basis of another legal vector. To do this, an amendment to Article L. 2221-1 of the Transport Code would then be necessary. The measure provided for in the third article of the Enabling Act is intended to allow the application of a particular procedural regime to works for the construction or emergency installation of premises, installations or infrastructures of ports, railways, airports and airports. required by the reestablishment of checks of goods and passengers to or from the United Kingdom, whether or not there is a withdrawal agreement. Provisions adopted by order on its basis must be made within six months of its publication. The withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union will lead to the restoration of veterinary, sanitary, phytosanitary and safety controls and customs formalities. These checks will have to be put in place on the day of withdrawal in case of exit without agreement, or at the end of the transition period in case of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement. At present, with regard to the Channel / North Sea seaboard, border posts of veterinary and phytosanitary border inspection services (SIVEP) are present in Le Havre, Dunkirk, Saint Malo and Brest. However, they are not sized to control all the batches coming from the United Kingdom or do not have facilities approved for all types of flows (absence of control facilities for live animals in Le Havre and Dunkirk in particular). In addition, the entry points to, among others, Roscoff, Cherbourg, Caen-Ouistreham, Dieppe and Calais as well as the Channel Tunnel do not have border posts to date. To fulfill their obligations, these services need the provision by the operators of premises adapted to the nature and volume of the flows introduced from the United Kingdom. In addition, a location in a restricted access zone could be retained in certain entry points, which should be subject to appropriate security. In addition, carrying out these checks will take a significant amount of time, which will slow down the flow of traffic and may therefore quickly lead to congestion in the port, rail and road infrastructures. In order to maintain the fluidity of the port and ensure the safety of the various convoys, adequate parking areas will have to be created. Improvements may therefore include the construction of roads, car parks, buildings, control areas or the installation of any equipment necessary for carrying out the controls concerned. They will have to be made before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom and taking into account the arrangements that the other Member States will take. These tight deadlines require in particular to make applicable to these arrangements directly related to the organization of the controls adjustments or derogations, particularly in terms of planning, urban planning, expropriation for reasons of public interest, preservation of heritage, roads and transport, public ownership, public commissions, rules applicable to seaports, public participation and environmental assessment, in order to adapt them to the urgency of these operations. Lastly, Article 4 of the Law sets a deadline of six months for draft ratification laws to be tabled in Parliament after the publication of the ordinances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 pelmetman - 2018-10-18 2:33 PM It's curious though how they didn't demand visas when they wanted us to save their Ar*e in WW1 or WW2 ;-) .......... Actually some did, although of course it was hushed up at the time. There was such devastation in such places as Caen that people there wanted us to leave it to Stalin and Hitler to annihilate each other a long way away. Would have been better for them (and us) wouldn't it :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Bulletguy - 2018-10-18 5:48 PM antony1969 - 2018-10-18 2:24 PM Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 2:11 PM antony1969 - 2018-10-18 10:23 AM Sounds good to me ... Time and again we've seen security needs tightening up ... If Germany can reintroduce borders then so can anyone else ... All those countries that trade through WTO seem to manage with borders ... We obviously being little old Blighty will struggle though ... Lordy the Borey borefest carries on and on Sounds good? How does it sound good? Sounds to me that the EU will be controlling their borders but we won't. I would take Brexit back and ask for your money back if I were you. You've been sold a pup. You won't though. If the Brexit leaders said you had to wander around Huddersfield for the rest of your life dressed only in a pink nappy singing the I'm a teapot" song to have Brexit you would agree. Actually don't you do that anyway? :lol: Your talking in riddles ... Now you post up what the French will do in the event of a no deal ... God....Kindergarten time again. Why do you always need someone to read for you? *-) In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, the social security coordination rules set out in Regulation 883/04 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the coordination of social security systems and its regulation application 987/09 will no longer apply between the United Kingdom and the Member States, including France. The withdrawal will therefore have consequences for the opening and determination of the social rights of British nationals and their dependents, as well as for the determination of their eligibility for social minima. Legislative adaptations are necessary to draw the consequences. (6) controls on goods and passengers to and from the United Kingdom and veterinary and phytosanitary controls on import from the United Kingdom. A withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union without agreement would imply a reinstatement of the checks on goods and passengers to and from the United Kingdom. It would also involve a reinstatement of veterinary and phytosanitary controls at the borders of the European Union for live animals, plants and animal and plant products from the United Kingdom, or from other third countries but transiting through the European Union. United Kingdom. Imports of this kind from third countries to the European Union are indeed controlled at borders because they can be a source of contamination and danger for human health, animal health and plant health (agricultural crops and natural flora). Veterinary and phytosanitary border controls are governed by European regulations 10( * ) and must be carried out in dedicated installations, the border control posts, which have an approval issued by the European Commission. Veterinary and phytosanitary border controls are governed by a European regulation 11( * ) and must be carried out in dedicated installations, the border control posts, which have an approval issued by the European Commission. Should derogations be allowed under European Union law, a legislative provision would be needed to comply with these derogations. 7 ° the carrying out of road transport operations of goods or persons on French territory, including transit, by natural or legal persons established in the United Kingdom. The consequences of a withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union without agreement would be particularly important in the road transport of persons and goods, whose rules of access to the profession and access to markets are defined by the law of the European Union. As regards access to the goods and passenger transport market, Community licenses and authorizations would have no effect in the event of exit without an agreement, and carriers would no longer be able to use them to operate on the territory of the Community. the other party for international operations. Cabotage would also be prohibited. If the Union does not adopt unilateral contingency measures in this case, the provisions of EU law do not prevent a Member State from adopting measures with regard to a third State. subject not to affect the law of the Union. Legislation would be needed to take such national measures. These national measures would be conditional on the adoption by the United Kingdom of reciprocal measures with regard to national operators. The first article also contains a provision making it possible to adopt by ordinance any other provision that would be necessary to deal with the situation of British nationals residing in France or carrying on business there, as well as legal persons established in the United Kingdom and carrying on business in France. . Lastly, it states that orders may provide that measures which grant British natural or legal persons more favorable treatment than natural or legal persons from third countries are conditional upon the grant of an equivalent status to natural or legal persons. French. The set of measures provided for in the second article of the authorization aims at preserving national interests and the situation of French nationals and other persons to whom Union law prohibits different treatment. Provisions adopted by order on its basis must also be made within twelve months of its publication. The measure provided for in 1 ° of the second article aims at allowing for the taking into account, for the opening and the determination of the social rights, periods of insurance, activities or professional training exercised or carried out in the United Kingdom before the date of its withdrawal from the European Union In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, the social security coordination rules laid down in Regulation 883/04 and its implementing Regulation 987/09 will no longer apply between the United Kingdom and the Member States, whose France. It shows that citizens, especially French, who will leave the UK to live in France will no longer be open to unemployment insurance rights in France based on their periods of activity in the UK, as is currently the case since they rework a minimum period in France. It is proposed to make the necessary arrangements in this regard. Similarly, the calculation of French contributory benefits (old age, invalidity, AT-MP) involving periods of insurance (contributions or residence) in the United Kingdom and France can only be based on national periods. Without a device, the French social security will not be able to take into account the British periods and will therefore be obliged to pay a benefit of a smaller amount. In order to allow this consideration for nationals, particularly French nationals, who were insured in both States at the time of the settlement of their pension rights, it is proposed to make the necessary arrangements. The measure provided for in 2 ° of the second article aims to allow the taking into account of diplomas and professional qualifications acquired or in the course of acquisition in the United Kingdom on the date of its withdrawal from the European Union and professional experience acquired in the United Kingdom. In the absence of an agreement, diplomas and professional qualifications acquired or in the process of being acquired in the United Kingdom on the date of withdrawal, in particular by French nationals, may no longer be recognized. In such a case, these nationals could no longer exercise on French territory. Legislation is required to allow for the recognition of these professional qualifications, diplomas and professional experience gained in the United Kingdom. The measure provided for in 3 ° of the second Article aims to allow the beneficiaries of licenses and authorizations for the transfer of products and materials to the United Kingdom, issued pursuant to Articles L. 2335-10 and L. 2335-18 of the Code. before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom, to continue the supply of these products and equipment until the expiry of the term fixed by these licenses and authorizations. In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, individual licenses and global transfer licenses issued to the United Kingdom pursuant to Article L. 2335-10 of the Defense Code before withdrawal from the United Kingdom Kingdom, will no longer be valid from that date. Indeed, flows to that country will no longer fall under the regime of Article L. 2335-9 of the Defense Code, but that of Article L. 2335-2 of the same Code. The change in the legal basis of these licenses will therefore be necessary. However, such measures are outside the scope of modifications that the administrative authority may make to licenses in progress (on the basis of Article L. 2335-12). Given the estimated number of licenses that will be in effect at that date, ranging from 1,000 to 1,500, the economic impact of a break in these exchanges, and the administrative burden imposed by a new simultaneous adoption of all licenses to the United Kingdom, the order will seek to transform all these intra-Community transfer licenses into export licenses, until the end of their initial validity. In addition, in the event of withdrawal without agreement, transfer authorizations issued before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom to the latter pursuant to Article L. 2335-18 of the Defense Code, concerning space equipment , will also no longer be valid from the exit of the United Kingdom from the European Union. A similar transformation will therefore be necessary. The measure provided for in point 4 of the second Article aims firstly to allow French entities access to the interbank payment and settlement settlement systems of third countries, including the United Kingdom as of its withdrawal, by ensuring the definitive settlement using these systems. Where applicable, certain UK specific payment systems (CLS, CHAPS and CREST) ??will benefit from the protections provided by Directive 98/26 / EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 19 May 1998 on finality. settlement in payment and securities settlement systems. This measure is also intended to allow the continuity of the use of the framework agreements in the field of financial services and the securing of the conditions of execution of the contracts concluded prior to the loss of the recognition of the authorizations of the British entities in France. The International Association of Swaps and Derivatives (ISDA) has sought one or more EU rights to twenty-seven in which to draft its model contract to deal with the legal consequences of withdrawal from the United Kingdom. The High Local Legal Committee worked on the conditions of development of the standard contract in French law, and highlighted the need to modify the law on some very specific points: (i) in French law, the scope of operations eligible for the clearing-termination does not cover spot FX transactions and the sale, purchase, delivery of precious metals or CO2 quota transactions, which is identified as a brake on the development of the contract in French law; (ii) the second amendment concerns the possibility for two parties to a derivative contract to charge capitalized overdue arrears in the event of default. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. In addition, as of the UK withdrawal, UK financial sector institutions will become "third country enterprises". The institutions that benefited from it will lose their "European passport", which is an unprecedented situation. It should be emphasized that for the vast majority of contracts in progress, this does not raise any legal difficulties as they should be transferred to entities governed by EU law, in accordance with the solution recommended by the European regulators. nationals. It is also possible for the subject to be dealt with at Union level. Nevertheless, in the event that operational difficulties come to slow transfers, The measure provided for in point 5 of the second article aims to ensure the continuity of the flow of passengers and goods transport between France and the United Kingdom through the Channel Tunnel and the respect by France of its commitments as a Licensor of the Channel Tunnel. Legislative provisions may be necessary to govern the consequences of the non-validity, as of withdrawal without agreement, of United Kingdom safety clearances to transport operators. It should be noted, however, that operators have been invited by the European Commission and the Ministry of Transport to obtain such authorizations from the competent authorities of one of the Member States of the European Union. Provisions would only be necessary if difficulties were identified in this area, and could be strictly limited to services using the Channel Tunnel. Legislative provisions may also be necessary to address the consequences of the loss of quality, by the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission, of its status as a national safety authority in the event that a solution is not found with the Commission. European Union and the United Kingdom on the basis of another legal vector. To do this, an amendment to Article L. 2221-1 of the Transport Code would then be necessary. The measure provided for in the third article of the Enabling Act is intended to allow the application of a particular procedural regime to works for the construction or emergency installation of premises, installations or infrastructures of ports, railways, airports and airports. required by the reestablishment of checks of goods and passengers to or from the United Kingdom, whether or not there is a withdrawal agreement. Provisions adopted by order on its basis must be made within six months of its publication. The withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union will lead to the restoration of veterinary, sanitary, phytosanitary and safety controls and customs formalities. These checks will have to be put in place on the day of withdrawal in case of exit without agreement, or at the end of the transition period in case of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement. At present, with regard to the Channel / North Sea seaboard, border posts of veterinary and phytosanitary border inspection services (SIVEP) are present in Le Havre, Dunkirk, Saint Malo and Brest. However, they are not sized to control all the batches coming from the United Kingdom or do not have facilities approved for all types of flows (absence of control facilities for live animals in Le Havre and Dunkirk in particular). In addition, the entry points to, among others, Roscoff, Cherbourg, Caen-Ouistreham, Dieppe and Calais as well as the Channel Tunnel do not have border posts to date. To fulfill their obligations, these services need the provision by the operators of premises adapted to the nature and volume of the flows introduced from the United Kingdom. In addition, a location in a restricted access zone could be retained in certain entry points, which should be subject to appropriate security. In addition, carrying out these checks will take a significant amount of time, which will slow down the flow of traffic and may therefore quickly lead to congestion in the port, rail and road infrastructures. In order to maintain the fluidity of the port and ensure the safety of the various convoys, adequate parking areas will have to be created. Improvements may therefore include the construction of roads, car parks, buildings, control areas or the installation of any equipment necessary for carrying out the controls concerned. They will have to be made before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom and taking into account the arrangements that the other Member States will take. These tight deadlines require in particular to make applicable to these arrangements directly related to the organization of the controls adjustments or derogations, particularly in terms of planning, urban planning, expropriation for reasons of public interest, preservation of heritage, roads and transport, public ownership, public commissions, rules applicable to seaports, public participation and environmental assessment, in order to adapt them to the urgency of these operations. Lastly, Article 4 of the Law sets a deadline of six months for draft ratification laws to be tabled in Parliament after the publication of the ordinances. Any pictures to make it easier for me cos I need to check that Stormy thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 antony1969 - 2018-10-18 7:32 PM Bulletguy - 2018-10-18 5:48 PM antony1969 - 2018-10-18 2:24 PM Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 2:11 PM antony1969 - 2018-10-18 10:23 AM Sounds good to me ... Time and again we've seen security needs tightening up ... If Germany can reintroduce borders then so can anyone else ... All those countries that trade through WTO seem to manage with borders ... We obviously being little old Blighty will struggle though ... Lordy the Borey borefest carries on and on Sounds good? How does it sound good? Sounds to me that the EU will be controlling their borders but we won't. I would take Brexit back and ask for your money back if I were you. You've been sold a pup. You won't though. If the Brexit leaders said you had to wander around Huddersfield for the rest of your life dressed only in a pink nappy singing the I'm a teapot" song to have Brexit you would agree. Actually don't you do that anyway? :lol: Your talking in riddles ... Now you post up what the French will do in the event of a no deal ... God....Kindergarten time again. Why do you always need someone to read for you? *-) In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, the social security coordination rules set out in Regulation 883/04 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the coordination of social security systems and its regulation application 987/09 will no longer apply between the United Kingdom and the Member States, including France. The withdrawal will therefore have consequences for the opening and determination of the social rights of British nationals and their dependents, as well as for the determination of their eligibility for social minima. Legislative adaptations are necessary to draw the consequences. (6) controls on goods and passengers to and from the United Kingdom and veterinary and phytosanitary controls on import from the United Kingdom. A withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union without agreement would imply a reinstatement of the checks on goods and passengers to and from the United Kingdom. It would also involve a reinstatement of veterinary and phytosanitary controls at the borders of the European Union for live animals, plants and animal and plant products from the United Kingdom, or from other third countries but transiting through the European Union. United Kingdom. Imports of this kind from third countries to the European Union are indeed controlled at borders because they can be a source of contamination and danger for human health, animal health and plant health (agricultural crops and natural flora). Veterinary and phytosanitary border controls are governed by European regulations 10( * ) and must be carried out in dedicated installations, the border control posts, which have an approval issued by the European Commission. Veterinary and phytosanitary border controls are governed by a European regulation 11( * ) and must be carried out in dedicated installations, the border control posts, which have an approval issued by the European Commission. Should derogations be allowed under European Union law, a legislative provision would be needed to comply with these derogations. 7 ° the carrying out of road transport operations of goods or persons on French territory, including transit, by natural or legal persons established in the United Kingdom. The consequences of a withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union without agreement would be particularly important in the road transport of persons and goods, whose rules of access to the profession and access to markets are defined by the law of the European Union. As regards access to the goods and passenger transport market, Community licenses and authorizations would have no effect in the event of exit without an agreement, and carriers would no longer be able to use them to operate on the territory of the Community. the other party for international operations. Cabotage would also be prohibited. If the Union does not adopt unilateral contingency measures in this case, the provisions of EU law do not prevent a Member State from adopting measures with regard to a third State. subject not to affect the law of the Union. Legislation would be needed to take such national measures. These national measures would be conditional on the adoption by the United Kingdom of reciprocal measures with regard to national operators. The first article also contains a provision making it possible to adopt by ordinance any other provision that would be necessary to deal with the situation of British nationals residing in France or carrying on business there, as well as legal persons established in the United Kingdom and carrying on business in France. . Lastly, it states that orders may provide that measures which grant British natural or legal persons more favorable treatment than natural or legal persons from third countries are conditional upon the grant of an equivalent status to natural or legal persons. French. The set of measures provided for in the second article of the authorization aims at preserving national interests and the situation of French nationals and other persons to whom Union law prohibits different treatment. Provisions adopted by order on its basis must also be made within twelve months of its publication. The measure provided for in 1 ° of the second article aims at allowing for the taking into account, for the opening and the determination of the social rights, periods of insurance, activities or professional training exercised or carried out in the United Kingdom before the date of its withdrawal from the European Union In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, the social security coordination rules laid down in Regulation 883/04 and its implementing Regulation 987/09 will no longer apply between the United Kingdom and the Member States, whose France. It shows that citizens, especially French, who will leave the UK to live in France will no longer be open to unemployment insurance rights in France based on their periods of activity in the UK, as is currently the case since they rework a minimum period in France. It is proposed to make the necessary arrangements in this regard. Similarly, the calculation of French contributory benefits (old age, invalidity, AT-MP) involving periods of insurance (contributions or residence) in the United Kingdom and France can only be based on national periods. Without a device, the French social security will not be able to take into account the British periods and will therefore be obliged to pay a benefit of a smaller amount. In order to allow this consideration for nationals, particularly French nationals, who were insured in both States at the time of the settlement of their pension rights, it is proposed to make the necessary arrangements. The measure provided for in 2 ° of the second article aims to allow the taking into account of diplomas and professional qualifications acquired or in the course of acquisition in the United Kingdom on the date of its withdrawal from the European Union and professional experience acquired in the United Kingdom. In the absence of an agreement, diplomas and professional qualifications acquired or in the process of being acquired in the United Kingdom on the date of withdrawal, in particular by French nationals, may no longer be recognized. In such a case, these nationals could no longer exercise on French territory. Legislation is required to allow for the recognition of these professional qualifications, diplomas and professional experience gained in the United Kingdom. The measure provided for in 3 ° of the second Article aims to allow the beneficiaries of licenses and authorizations for the transfer of products and materials to the United Kingdom, issued pursuant to Articles L. 2335-10 and L. 2335-18 of the Code. before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom, to continue the supply of these products and equipment until the expiry of the term fixed by these licenses and authorizations. In the event of withdrawal from the United Kingdom without agreement, individual licenses and global transfer licenses issued to the United Kingdom pursuant to Article L. 2335-10 of the Defense Code before withdrawal from the United Kingdom Kingdom, will no longer be valid from that date. Indeed, flows to that country will no longer fall under the regime of Article L. 2335-9 of the Defense Code, but that of Article L. 2335-2 of the same Code. The change in the legal basis of these licenses will therefore be necessary. However, such measures are outside the scope of modifications that the administrative authority may make to licenses in progress (on the basis of Article L. 2335-12). Given the estimated number of licenses that will be in effect at that date, ranging from 1,000 to 1,500, the economic impact of a break in these exchanges, and the administrative burden imposed by a new simultaneous adoption of all licenses to the United Kingdom, the order will seek to transform all these intra-Community transfer licenses into export licenses, until the end of their initial validity. In addition, in the event of withdrawal without agreement, transfer authorizations issued before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom to the latter pursuant to Article L. 2335-18 of the Defense Code, concerning space equipment , will also no longer be valid from the exit of the United Kingdom from the European Union. A similar transformation will therefore be necessary. The measure provided for in point 4 of the second Article aims firstly to allow French entities access to the interbank payment and settlement settlement systems of third countries, including the United Kingdom as of its withdrawal, by ensuring the definitive settlement using these systems. Where applicable, certain UK specific payment systems (CLS, CHAPS and CREST) ??will benefit from the protections provided by Directive 98/26 / EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 19 May 1998 on finality. settlement in payment and securities settlement systems. This measure is also intended to allow the continuity of the use of the framework agreements in the field of financial services and the securing of the conditions of execution of the contracts concluded prior to the loss of the recognition of the authorizations of the British entities in France. The International Association of Swaps and Derivatives (ISDA) has sought one or more EU rights to twenty-seven in which to draft its model contract to deal with the legal consequences of withdrawal from the United Kingdom. The High Local Legal Committee worked on the conditions of development of the standard contract in French law, and highlighted the need to modify the law on some very specific points: (i) in French law, the scope of operations eligible for the clearing-termination does not cover spot FX transactions and the sale, purchase, delivery of precious metals or CO2 quota transactions, which is identified as a brake on the development of the contract in French law; (ii) the second amendment concerns the possibility for two parties to a derivative contract to charge capitalized overdue arrears in the event of default. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. This capitalization possibility (called "anatocism" in law) is open to date only for arrears that have been outstanding for at least one year, contrary to what is the case in the Anglo-Saxon framework contract. It is therefore proposed to remedy this, by providing specifically for ISDA-type financial agreements (and therefore excluding current contracts, such as consumer credit), that the capitalization of interest is possible when interest is due for a period of less than one full year. In addition, as of the UK withdrawal, UK financial sector institutions will become "third country enterprises". The institutions that benefited from it will lose their "European passport", which is an unprecedented situation. It should be emphasized that for the vast majority of contracts in progress, this does not raise any legal difficulties as they should be transferred to entities governed by EU law, in accordance with the solution recommended by the European regulators. nationals. It is also possible for the subject to be dealt with at Union level. Nevertheless, in the event that operational difficulties come to slow transfers, The measure provided for in point 5 of the second article aims to ensure the continuity of the flow of passengers and goods transport between France and the United Kingdom through the Channel Tunnel and the respect by France of its commitments as a Licensor of the Channel Tunnel. Legislative provisions may be necessary to govern the consequences of the non-validity, as of withdrawal without agreement, of United Kingdom safety clearances to transport operators. It should be noted, however, that operators have been invited by the European Commission and the Ministry of Transport to obtain such authorizations from the competent authorities of one of the Member States of the European Union. Provisions would only be necessary if difficulties were identified in this area, and could be strictly limited to services using the Channel Tunnel. Legislative provisions may also be necessary to address the consequences of the loss of quality, by the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission, of its status as a national safety authority in the event that a solution is not found with the Commission. European Union and the United Kingdom on the basis of another legal vector. To do this, an amendment to Article L. 2221-1 of the Transport Code would then be necessary. The measure provided for in the third article of the Enabling Act is intended to allow the application of a particular procedural regime to works for the construction or emergency installation of premises, installations or infrastructures of ports, railways, airports and airports. required by the reestablishment of checks of goods and passengers to or from the United Kingdom, whether or not there is a withdrawal agreement. Provisions adopted by order on its basis must be made within six months of its publication. The withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union will lead to the restoration of veterinary, sanitary, phytosanitary and safety controls and customs formalities. These checks will have to be put in place on the day of withdrawal in case of exit without agreement, or at the end of the transition period in case of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement. At present, with regard to the Channel / North Sea seaboard, border posts of veterinary and phytosanitary border inspection services (SIVEP) are present in Le Havre, Dunkirk, Saint Malo and Brest. However, they are not sized to control all the batches coming from the United Kingdom or do not have facilities approved for all types of flows (absence of control facilities for live animals in Le Havre and Dunkirk in particular). In addition, the entry points to, among others, Roscoff, Cherbourg, Caen-Ouistreham, Dieppe and Calais as well as the Channel Tunnel do not have border posts to date. To fulfill their obligations, these services need the provision by the operators of premises adapted to the nature and volume of the flows introduced from the United Kingdom. In addition, a location in a restricted access zone could be retained in certain entry points, which should be subject to appropriate security. In addition, carrying out these checks will take a significant amount of time, which will slow down the flow of traffic and may therefore quickly lead to congestion in the port, rail and road infrastructures. In order to maintain the fluidity of the port and ensure the safety of the various convoys, adequate parking areas will have to be created. Improvements may therefore include the construction of roads, car parks, buildings, control areas or the installation of any equipment necessary for carrying out the controls concerned. They will have to be made before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom and taking into account the arrangements that the other Member States will take. These tight deadlines require in particular to make applicable to these arrangements directly related to the organization of the controls adjustments or derogations, particularly in terms of planning, urban planning, expropriation for reasons of public interest, preservation of heritage, roads and transport, public ownership, public commissions, rules applicable to seaports, public participation and environmental assessment, in order to adapt them to the urgency of these operations. Lastly, Article 4 of the Law sets a deadline of six months for draft ratification laws to be tabled in Parliament after the publication of the ordinances. Any pictures to make it easier for me. No, it's about time you learned to read for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 It's difficult to tell which one of you two is the more obtuse - the one who cut and posted such a long diatribe of obscure information or the one who just had to cut and copy it all again just to add one line of pointless response. Fer crying out loud guys give it a break you, and others of a similar ilk, have ruined what used to be an enjoyable forum with your non stop sniping and point scoring and seeing who can get higher up the wall. Just look down the list of topics and the shrinking list on very few regular contributors to see the depths of pointlessness that Chatterbox has descended to. I don't expect you to take any notice of this plea - you never have such are your egos - but I feel better for having said it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 8:59 AM http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html All checks of goods and passengers will be restablished immediately as will SPS, veterinary checks and default safety customs declarations/checks...………………………... As they are obliged to do as the border they are policing is the EU border and not just that of France. What then follows Barry's post is an extraordinary display of the level of ignorance of some forum members regarding history and the EU. And yet they all get to vote. I despair for democracy! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Richard ... No one has to reply to any post and anyone can post a new thread on any subject so feel free to do so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-10-19 11:14 AM What then follows Barry's post is an extraordinary display of the level of ignorance of some forum members regarding history and the EU. And yet they all get to vote. I despair for democracy! :-( It's worse than that Brian - they are allowed to breed as well - I despair for the human race ! That said, you don't need to know how a machine works to use it so why would you need to know about history to be able to vote? History is a thing of the past - it's the future that counts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 John52 - 2018-10-18 6:59 PM pelmetman - 2018-10-18 2:33 PM It's curious though how they didn't demand visas when they wanted us to save their Ar*e in WW1 or WW2 ;-) .......... Actually some did, although of course it was hushed up at the time. There was such devastation in such places as Caen that people there wanted us to leave it to Stalin and Hitler to annihilate each other a long way away. Would have been better for them (and us) wouldn't it :-S Is that the latest post war rewrite of history by the raving loony left? *-) ........... Have you managed to change Hitler from a Socialist to a Tory yet? ;-) .......... Just askin? >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Brian Kirby - 2018-10-19 11:14 AM Barryd999 - 2018-10-18 8:59 AM http://www.senat.fr/leg/pjl18-009.html All checks of goods and passengers will be restablished immediately as will SPS, veterinary checks and default safety customs declarations/checks...………………………... As they are obliged to do as the border they are policing is the EU border and not just that of France. What then follows Barry's post is an extraordinary display of the level of ignorance of some forum members regarding history and the EU. And yet they all get to vote. I despair for democracy! :-( When did you last care about democracy? 8-) ........... Oh yeah I remember ;-) ...... 22nd June 2016 >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Tracker - 2018-10-19 12:48 PM Brian Kirby - 2018-10-19 11:14 AM What then follows Barry's post is an extraordinary display of the level of ignorance of some forum members regarding history and the EU. And yet they all get to vote. I despair for democracy! :-( It's worse than that Brian - they are allowed to breed as well - I despair for the human race ! That said, you don't need to know how a machine works to use it so why would you need to know about history to be able to vote? History is a thing of the past - it's the future that counts! Yes Rich, but...…………..………………………(there's always a but! :-)) See the linked article by John Major http://tinyurl.com/y8tgfjme which I think answers your question with more eloquence, and from a standpoint of far greater knowledge and experience, than I could ever hope to marshal. I suspect many of our resident Brexiters won't have seen or read this, because it was published in the Grauniad (oh dear :-)), but it exactly encapsulates the conclusions I have reached as to the wisdom, or otherwise, of Brexit, and why I think it will prove a costly historic mistake for the UK, in terms of our economy, our political structures, and our international standing. It also, I hope, goes some way to explain why I do not accept that holding those views is in any sense undemocratic. A majority is just the largest group of people who held a particular opinion, on a given topic, on a given day. It does not confer correctness on that opinion. I think that in the case of Brexit, the majority was wrong - how can it possibly be undemocratic to say so? The electorate were asked an extremely foolish binary question, which merely invited them to express a desire to remain in, or leave, the EU - without proper explanation of what the pros and cons of either choice might be. It has since become abundantly clear (at least to me!), that the failure to properly explain those possible pros and cons arose because the government of the day (as well as the opposition) had itself given no such consideration to those issues, leading directly to the present chaotic state of the negotiations. Macron is right, the EU can't negotiate with a government that is still negotiating with itself. This is not primarily a failure on the part of May, it is wholesale failure of our entire political class, who are so besotted with scoring petty party political points (not unlike a few on here!) instead of focusing on the issue at hand, that they have completely lost sight of their wider responsibilities to their country (by which I mean the whole country, not just their political supporters). It is a humiliating cesspit from which I see no present escape. That is my view, referendum or no referendum, for which I am totally unapologetic - so there! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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