Mike Parke Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Doublessly you will have seen the news item that the Home Office/ Police/ C.P.S. want to take roadside D.N.A. samples from all including those committing 'minor offences'. These they describe as 'speeding', 'litter' etc. Allowing your dog to foul the footpath is exempt!! As a reired Police Officer of what was classed as 'the old school' I find this idea repulsive. Only those who commit offences which may earn a custudial sentence should be 'D.N.A.ed' in my opinion. However, the thinking behind this is that those of us who drop litter may go on to commit more serious offences!! I ask you, we can all admit to throwing an apple core out of the window of the m'home or whatever but that does not follow that we will commit theft, robbery, murder or whatelse, does it? Regards, Mike: & Cherry (Who will NOT admit to throwing an apple core out of the window!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Hi Mike, So if a copper gives in evidence that "DNA at the scene was linked with the DNA data banks, which led to the arrest of the defendant" the Judges can assume that the culprit has been arrested previously. Chucking apple core, or Sabotage in HM Dockyards? Probably a good idea, but not according to current definition of Justice. More worrying, is my thought that Plod will be sent out to deliberately find DNA donors, to swell the data banks. Why don't they go the whole hog, and say that everybody must have their DNA on record? I would also suggest that the CSA require DNA evidence in all cases. My son's mate had to pay for his own tests to prove that the twins were not his. Hmmm. Could one demand details of one's DNA from the police, under the Data Protection Act? £10? Where's that apple core? 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Well I for one would happily give a DNA sample and I don't commit offences. I've done nothing wrong so I have nothing to fear. If the police had my DNA on database they could rule me out of any crimes very easily. I'd also be very happy to have an ID card if required. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-08-03 7:37 AM Well I for one would happily give a DNA sample and I don't commit offences. I've done nothing wrong so I have nothing to fear. If the police had my DNA on database they could rule me out of any crimes very easily. I remember a similar conversation with a high ranking police officer regarding fingerprints about 27 years ago. I said at the time that I wouldn't mind my prints being on record but the police officer was completely opposed to such general records because of the possibility of mistakes and misuse. davenewell@home - 2007-08-03 7:37 AM I'd also be very happy to have an ID card if required. Now that, having studied the governments proposals when working as a Data Protection Officer, is something I would not be happy with. Even more opportunity for error and misuse there. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Hi, I also would be happy to have a simple identity card....but it would be for my benefit not anybody else's. If I don't want to show it to somebody, that would be my choice. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 In theory all of us having our unique DNA on file sounds very good. All crimes would be easily solved. But it is quite easy to "make" DNA as this is part of the process of identifying it. A hair or whatever has its DNA extracted then "Amplified" so that it can be tested. So what would stop someone "Amplifying" your DNA then leave it lying round at the scene of a crime? Also, and more immediately worrying is the Data Base that would be required to hold all the data. Do we really want a Government Agency to hive of the responsibility to a company that procures the Computers on the basis of lowest cost? Based upon what has happened to the DVLA, CSA and NHS systems I would suggest this is a recipe for a few to get rich very quickly and for the tax payer to be landed with another lemon. It will not be foolproof and CERTAINLY NOT tamper proof. It's a nice idea but in reality a costly abuse of tax payers money. And that means it is probably enormously attractive to the politicians and civil servants ("Control Freaks" one and all!) and will therefore be a dead cert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I agree with Dave, if youv'e done nothing wrong then whats the worry, It would also help to identify bodies etc. The goverment already know every little thing about us and hold it on record somewhere, so ID cards are hardly going to be any worse. However, I also have to agree with the many who are worried about the misuse and abuse issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Hi, I was chastised by a woman on a French group cos I said I happily travelled around in UK without any form of identifcation. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Well as I carry a wallet with two credit cards, two debit cards, one driving licence with photo on, membership cards for several organisations, my gas accredition card with photo and nat ins number on it I already carry a truck load of ID so another card with much the same info on it is a minor issue to me. I don't subscribe to this idea that the "establishment" is out to abuse me and my rights in every way possible so having my DNA on a national database wouldn't bother me. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 donna miller - 2007-08-03 1:44 PM The goverment already know every little thing about us and hold it on record somewhere, so ID cards are hardly going to be any worse. One of the major problems is guaranteeing accuracy. The government has a lot of information about people recorded more than once - and the several databases don't match - so how do they tell which (if any) of the records are correct? There was a national project started a few years ago to produce a single property database for the whole country. The basis was to be an almagamation of specific existing databases. It didn't work because of the level of inaccuracies and mis-matching between the databases - and that was a lot less complex than records of people. There is also the matter of who is allowed to access the data and under what constraints. Problems with that sort of thing are one of the reasons why the NHS national spine system was unsuccessful. I'm afraid I saw too much in 30 odd years in local government IT to ever trust any government to set up such a system. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 I can honestly say I have NEVER thrown an apple core out of the motorhome ... if I did one of my dogs would soon follow it to eat it! DNA ... can't see the point really, it might help solve some crimes, but it would create a lot more work and expense which I doubt they'll want to pay for. Not bothered if they want it though, not intending to do owt I shun't ... at the mo that is.>:-) As for and ID card, unless you don't carry anthing with you, like credit card, etc then you already have something on you that identifies you, so I can't see the problem with having an official card, in fact it would probably be useful such as when booking in to some campsites etc. Slightly digressing ... but how many have an Organ Donor card? That is one card that, in my view, everyone should carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Mel B - 2007-08-03 6:33 PM Slightly digressing ... but how many have an Organ Donor card? That is one card that, in my view, everyone should carry. Totally agree - had one for years. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parke Posted August 4, 2007 Author Share Posted August 4, 2007 I find all your replies very interesting! My main objection to roadside/complusory D.N.A. is the fact that, yes, if you are 'innocent' you have nothing to fear, but, it would, I suggest, alienate 'Middle England' who are generally pro police and in order to obtain the test the police would, as was suggested, be looking to hit as many people as possible. I know I am a 'dinosoar' and had a reputation as such when in the job but the main thing about the British policing system is that, unlike many other countries where they 'police by statute', we 'police by consent' and if the support of the masses is lost the policing system falls down! I am, however, in favour of I.D. cards provided they are kept 'simple' such as we had in the armed forces and the police force i.e. date of birth, height, colour, name, photograph and holders signature with a verifiying signature to support the aforementioned details. Also we do not want a law which was in force in Russia at the time of the Csars which said that if you did not produce your I.D. on demand YOU would be incarcerated until YOU produced your I.D.!! A case of an automatic life sentence!!!! Night Shift over so I am off to my bed! Regards & Good Night, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Hi, Yes, keep the initial ID card simple (ie cheap). Let Joe Public find out that maybe the idea has its merits. Also sort out the teething problems before producing the all singing, all dancing, version (ie expensive). And then there are the anomolies. How will the system deal with people like the character who applied for his driving licence way back when. His application was rejected by the computer. As requested, he provided a copy of his birth certificate to show he was born on 29th February on a non-leap year. They managed to "contrive" to get him onto the computer....so much for secure systems. A friend in France had to dash out to collect the person buying his van from the station. Unfortunately, he had been sorting the documents when the phone rang, so when the police stopped him he had to explain that they were on his kitchen table. €30 penalty. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-08-03 6:26 PM Well as I carry a wallet with two credit cards, two debit cards, one driving licence with photo on, membership cards for several organisations, my gas accredition card with photo and nat ins number on it I already carry a truck load of ID so another card with much the same info on it is a minor issue to me. I don't subscribe to this idea that the "establishment" is out to abuse me and my rights in every way possible so having my DNA on a national database wouldn't bother me. D. I'm actually still not bothered about finerprints/DNA, despite what the senior policeman told me years ago. However, unfortunately, as regards ID cards, the evidence is that the "establishment" does abuse them - by slipping in more purposes than first admitted. As the Information Commissioner has pointed out, from the time the last UK ID card was issued during World War II to the time of its abolition in 1952, the functions of the card went up from three to 39. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 W3526602 - 2007-08-04 7:31 AM And then there are the anomolies. How will the system deal with people like the character who applied for his driving licence way back when. His application was rejected by the computer. As requested, he provided a copy of his birth certificate to show he was born on 29th February on a non-leap year. They managed to "contrive" to get him onto the computer....so much for secure systems. 602 So, what year was there a 29th February without it being a leap one then? Load of tosh me thinks! B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Hi 602, thanks for the PM explaining, you had me worried there! :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twooks Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 I realise I've resurrected an old thread - put it down to a senior moment *-) I feel the argument -'I've done nothing wrong so I've nothing to fear' to be disingenuous and naive Ten years ago - almost - I felt very frightened and alienated - completely out on a limb - why, because I did not / could not understand, relate to, join in the mass hysteria that seemed to have infected 99.99% of the population. I had - in my view - done nothing wrong - but I was clearly out on a limb, I did not feel that I could indulge in the right of Free Speech, for fear of being torn limb from limb by some crazed crowd who seemingly inhabited a parallel universe. As Keith Richards said - Dunno. I never knew the chick - B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 Hi, Somewhere (radio?)...and many years ago, somebody (???) said that 40% of the population would be convicted of a serious crime at some time in their life. Or maybe it was just men. I don't know what they meant be "serious"...I mean, DVLA describe no road tax as "very serious". But if that many people are going to lose some of their DNA, I suppose they should just take a sample from everybody, crims or not. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twooks Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 anyone read Orwell's 1984 recently??? B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 hi cant see the problem with either id cards or dna testing except how much it will cost for a fake one but it just might help clear out the illegals hanging about all over our citys ,,pagey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Are you sure it does not mean D & A as in Drugs and Alcohol theres a song there somewhere.... *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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