CurtainRaiser Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 "Makes you proud?" thread. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 The "Makes you proud?" thread is currently in the Admin Quarantine forum and has been 'frozen' there. This is a 4-pages-long thread begun by you on 24 November 2021; that seemed to die on 3 December, but was then revived by you earlier today. I can't tell you why the thread was transferred to the Admin Quarantine forum and frozen. Nor can I tell you who decided to do this. But I can tell you that I did not do it. The forum members who actively 'moderate' the O&AL forums are Keithl and myself. I believe there may be a couple of other forum members who still have moderator privileges and the forum Administrators have all the moderator privileges plus extra powers. (I also notice that two 'Editor warning' threads that were 'stickied' and 'frozen' at the top of the Chatterbpx forum homepage have been deleted (ie. they've actually gone forever, rather than been moved elsewhere) - but I've no idea whether this was done deliberately or accidentally.) As far as I'm aware 'moderator action' leaves no obvious fingerprints. So unless whoever moved the "Makes you proud?" thread to the Admin Quarantine forum admits to having done this (and/or to having deleted the other two threads) I don't think a Track and Trace will be possible unless the Warners systems people get involved. I could move the "Makes you proud?" thread back to Chatterbox and 'unfreeze' it. However, I must assume that whoever transferred the thread to the Admin Quarantine forum had a justifiable reason for doing this, so I'm not going to touch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 Thanks for the explanation Derek. I resurrected an old, but not ancient, thread as I thought that was preferable to starting multiple threads. I note that the same has happened with the German covid numbers and the HMG Irish torture threads, so I can only conclude that a moderator doesn't like older threads reopening to continue the discussion? As the alternative is they don't like criticism of HMG? Hang on someone hasn't made Pelmetman a moderator have they! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 I did not move this thread either but do note that Daniel was active on the forum earlier today as I had asked him to delete a spam posting and warn the new forum member involved so maybe he did while he was active. Keith. PS I normally stay out of CB unless a 'New Threads' title catches my eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 CurtainRaiser - 2021-12-21 4:32 PM ...I note that the same has happened with the German covid numbers and the HMG Irish torture threads... Are you sure that those threads have actually gone from Chatterbox? This July 2021 thread (that you revived in September and again in December) mentioned torture. https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/That-ll-annoy-our-resident-angry-brigade-/58511/ The most recent posting is 15 December - did you post to it after that? It may be that the 'German covid numbers' thread has had the red-pencil treatment and is still lurking in Chatterbox somewhere . Did you post to that thread very recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 I stand corrected Derek, well partly, the German thread and the RNLI threads have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 There's a RNLI thread in Chatterbox, but I don't know if it's the one you are referring to https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/RNLI-website-hacked-and-staff-threatened-/59287/ Deleting postings from the end of a thread (particularly a thread that has been "resurrected') will often result in that thread's 'date/time of most recent posting' to be significantly changed. This may cause the thread to be assigned automatically to an earlier position in the forum's listing, either on the same page (if the thread is being posted to a lot) or to a much earlier page (if it was a really ancient thread that has been resurrected.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 No, the one I was referring to was the "makes you proud" one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Within the "Makes you proud?" thread "RNLI" occurs 17 times on the 3rd page and 15 times on the 4th page - though this high occurrence is due to Chatterbox participants' addiction to the QUOTE button, not because the occurrences were unique. As I said in my 1st posting above, the "Makes you proud?" thread is now on the Admin Quarantine forum. As Keithl and I did not put it there and you've noticed that other Chatterbox threads have been edited/deleted, it's likely that these actions have been carried out at Administrator level. So if you want to know why the Chatterbox threads you've mentioned have recently been removed/deleted/edited, you'll need to ask the Administrator. (The only Chatterbox discussion I've 'moderated' recently was the "David Baddiel" thread that I transferred to the Admin Quarantine forum. But I did warn before I did this and I did say why I was going to do it.) I've looked at Chatterbox discussions that I participated in during 2021 and most of these were 'general subject' threads that I had moved from the Motorhome Matters forum. Normally I let Chatterboxers get on with it in the hope that the axe will fall and the forum will be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-12-22 2:28 PM Normally I let Chatterboxers get on with it in the hope that the axe will fall and the forum will be removed. You get my vote :D ........ How weird is that Derek? 8-) ........ We actually both agree for once (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Chatter Bollox's is nothing more than a echo chamber for LOSERS and their lefty chums nowadays *-) .......... It wont change until the forum is scrapped or us protagonists are evicted on mass ;-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-12-22 5:00 PM......................... Chatter Box is nothing more than a echo chamber for LOSERS and their lefty chums nowadays *-) .................... To an extent, I agree. There is a clear left leaning bias to many posts, but the views are usually reasonably expressed. The problem, it seems to me, is that those who wish to debate or disagree with those left wing views too often demonstrate an equal and opposite political tendency, assuming that they, and they alone, are the ones who are "right" (in the sense of being correct). What is missing, is well argued opposing views. The opposing response is too often (almost invariably, in fact) laced with personal insult, innuendo, ad hominem, attacks on the poster and not on the poster's point of view. That is why so many potentially interesting topics are lost through descent into pub brawls. No-one has a monopoly on being "right" (again, in the sense of being correct! :-)). Both left and right have blind spots in their arguments that stem from their respective biases. In the end, both are necessary for the operation of a healthy democracy. Pleading for the abolition of an open forum because "the other side" has the better (or better expressed) arguments at a point in time is defeatism. It is tantamount to pleading that the right has no arguments, so the other lot should be silenced. There are, and have been, many examples of this authoritarian tendency around the world, and once it gains supremacy the result is almost invariably the collapse of democracy. Usually, it is because the lost arguments were logically or instinctively wrong, or just insufficiently convincing to gain wider support. The answer to that is to mount better argument, not to destroy the forum of debate. There may be some truth in the claim that the majority of those expressing "lefty" views are those who also voted against Brexit (the above "LOSERS") but that truth, in and of itself, does not render those views invalid. Brexit was never a left, or right, wing issue. It is a philosophical issue. There were, and are, those in favour of, and against, membership of the EU, for a variety of reasons, in all UK political parties. Brexit was hijacked, more's the shame, by the two main parties for their own, perceived, political gain, and hijacked again, cynically in my opinion, as an issue to gain personal status. It is an argument that will rumble on until either the proponents of leaving are proved right in their convictions (and probably after that!) or until events persuade the population at large that leaving was a self inflicted wound that is best healed by re-joining (and even after that!). Seeking to stifle or deny debate on the subject is both undemocratic and, ultimately, self defeating. For now, we have left, It is done. The proponents of Brexit now have to prove to the majority of the population who voted against or did not vote, that their project will bring the benefits they claimed it would. In the meantime the jury is out on whether we have chosen the right path. So, wait until the jury has reached its verdict and, in the meantime, don't seek to silence them before they have spoken. In due course, they will speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-12-22 5:00 PM Derek Uzzell - 2021-12-22 2:28 PM Normally I let Chatterboxers get on with it in the hope that the axe will fall and the forum will be removed. You get my vote :D ........ How weird is that Derek? 8-) ........ We actually both agree for once (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Chatter Bollox's is nothing more than a echo chamber for LOSERS and their lefty chums nowadays *-) .......... It wont change until the forum is scrapped or us protagonists are evicted on mass ;-) .......... You say that because YOU'RE LOSING. (Brian explained it better than me but in too many words for you to read) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-12-22 7:30 PM pelmetman - 2021-12-22 5:00 PM......................... Chatter Box is nothing more than a echo chamber for LOSERS and their lefty chums nowadays *-) .................... Pleading for the abolition of an open forum because "the other side" has the better (or better expressed) arguments at a point in time is defeatism. It is tantamount to pleading that the right has no arguments, so the other lot should be silenced. The answer to that is to mount better argument, not to destroy the forum of debate. Summed up in a nutshell. And talking of "echo chambers" he's got his safe space in Barrys fairycakes forum where he can yap inane rubbish with his tag team chums all day long instead of coming here disrupting threads he doesn't like because he's unable to put forward any sensible points. The proponents of Brexit now have to prove to the majority of the population who voted against or did not vote, that their project will bring the benefits they claimed it would. Ask a few farmers, fishermen, and import/exporters what benefits they've had from Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-12-22 7:30 PM For now, we have left, It is done. The proponents of Brexit now have to prove to the majority of the population who voted against or did not vote, that their project will bring the benefits they claimed it would. In the meantime the jury is out on whether we have chosen the right path. So, wait until the jury has reached its verdict and, in the meantime, don't seek to silence them before they have spoken. In due course, they will speak. Perhaps you LOSERS should accept that we have NOT.......in numbers just for you Brian..... 1.....Suffered a deep recession,......due to Brexit 2.....The economy hasn't crashed....due to Brexit 3......We do not have 800k+ job losses.......due to Brexit 4......House prices haven't crashed .......due to Brexit So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........ 5.......1.2 million job vacancies 6.......Wage increases for the low paid 7.......House price boom 8.......Getting to the front of the vaccine queue 9.......Getting to the front of the Booster queue 10.....Annoying the hell out of you LOSERS (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2021-12-22 7:30 PM For now, we have left, It is done. The proponents of Brexit now have to prove to the majority of the population who voted against or did not vote, that their project will bring the benefits they claimed it would. In the meantime the jury is out on whether we have chosen the right path. So, wait until the jury has reached its verdict and, in the meantime, don't seek to silence them before they have spoken. In due course, they will speak. Perhaps you LOSERS should accept that we have NOT.......in numbers just for you Brian..... 1.....Suffered a deep recession,......due to Brexit 2.....The economy hasn't crashed....due to Brexit 3......We do not have 800k+ job losses.......due to Brexit 4......House prices haven't crashed .......due to Brexit So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........ 5.......1.2 million job vacancies 6.......Wage increases for the low paid 7.......House price boom 8.......Getting to the front of the vaccine queue 9.......Getting to the front of the Booster queue 10.....Annoying the hell out of you LOSERS (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM .....House prices haven't crashed .......due to Brexit .......House price boom ....... Do you think the housing crisis leading to house price inflation is a good thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM ..The economy hasn't crashed....due to Brexit ........ So why is it a record £4.8 trillion in the red - and rising - fast 8-) Why are essential workers taking a real terms pay cut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM Brian Kirby - 2021-12-22 7:30 PM For now, we have left, It is done. The proponents of Brexit now have to prove to the majority of the population who voted against or did not vote, that their project will bring the benefits they claimed it would. In the meantime the jury is out on whether we have chosen the right path. So, wait until the jury has reached its verdict and, in the meantime, don't seek to silence them before they have spoken. In due course, they will speak. Perhaps you LOSERS should accept that we have NOT.......in numbers just for you Brian..... 1.....Suffered a deep recession,......due to Brexit 2.....The economy hasn't crashed....due to Brexit 3......We do not have 800k+ job losses.......due to Brexit 4......House prices haven't crashed .......due to Brexit So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........ 5.......1.2 million job vacancies 6.......Wage increases for the low paid 7.......House price boom 8.......Getting to the front of the vaccine queue 9.......Getting to the front of the Booster queue 10.....Annoying the hell out of you LOSERS (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Arguing that something has not caused various events/disadvantages is not the same as demonstrating that it has brought advantages. So, one at a time, and we've mostly been here before: 1 The economy did suffer a recession in the aftermath of the referendum in 2016. At the time we actually left, in 2020, we had not recovered the ground lost in 2016, so comparisons with the period after 2016 did not show significant further economic loss. In effect, the economy shrunk, and remains shrunk, compared to where it should have been had we not left. 2 Crashed, no. But did anyone forecast that it would? But, as above, it shrank, and has not since recovered its normal rates of annual growth, or the lost growth post 2016. 3 No, but that forecast, as I've explained before, was Osborne's (Conservative, remember?), misrepresentation of what the economists actually said. The economists presented various scenarios, all hedged with caveats, on the assumption we would actually leave following the vote. To try to frighten the Brexiters into doubting their own project, Osborne then seized on their worst case scenario, and omitted the caveats. Time and events have now made all those scenarios invalid, except to those who, lacking any better news, seek to argue that because the misrepresented worst case did not arise, it proves the venture a success. It don't! (lol) 4 I don't know who said they would. Given that our house prices reflect a housing shortage, and the shortage has not been reversed, why would the prices crash? 5 & 6 Don't recognise your figure, but much of the labour shortage is due to EU immigrants returning home post Brexit, plus the sudden impacts of the waves of Covid on the labour market. The government has relaxed the Covid rules, firms are trying to resume normality, and have to replace the labour lost to both the changing Covid rules and the post Brexit exodus. Hence, a lot of job vacancies. Is that remarkable? Is it good, if it results in an inflation surge, as currently seems to be the case? He who gets a pay increase increases his employer's costs. Where does the employer get back his increased costs? He increases his prices, Who pays the increased prices? Everyone. What do his employees then do? They ask for yet higher pay to compensate for the higher prices. Perhaps you don't remember the 1970's? It was the low paid who lost the most. In the end, it always is. 7 Great news for everyone looking to buy a house - not! :-S For those who already own houses, what difference does it make? 8 Nothing whatever to do with Brexit. We were still technically in the EU when the vaccines were developed and licenced, and could have done as we did did in or out. 9 Meaningless. 10 In much the same way that a dripping tap annoys. It has no purpose, no point of view, and no ideas: it just annoys. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 Brian Kirby - 2021-12-23 5:50 PM I don't know who said (House prices would crash). Neither do I Perhaps Dave could tell us *-) I that Osborne (Conservative) said Brexit could lead to a fall in house prices, and then the polls tipped in favour of Brexit. Coincidence? I don't think so. Millions of people desperately need a fall in house prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 Interesting how Pelmetman's entry into this thread (that enquired about removal of another thread) immediately threw the discussion way off topic into the same old Big Brexit argument. I'm minded to delete all the entries from Pelmetman's posting of 22 December 2021 5:00 PM onwards and then freeze the thread. Just because this is Chatterbox doesn't mean that threads are immune to the Grim Reaper ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-12-24 9:05 AM Interesting how Pelmetman's entry into this thread (that enquired about removal of another thread) immediately threw the discussion way off topic into the same old Big Brexit argument. I'm minded to delete all the entries from Pelmetman's posting of 22 December 2021 5:00 PM onwards and then freeze the thread. Just because this is Chatterbox doesn't mean that threads are immune to the Grim Reaper ... Does this mean discussion of Brexit is to be censored on chatterbox as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 It means that if a thread has been deliberately dragged off topic (in Chatterbox or in any of the other forums) it's likely to be edited. If Chatterboxers want to rabbit on about Brexit ad infinitum on Brexit-related threads, that's fine. If they decide to infect other non-Brexit-related threads with the Brexit virus, that's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtainRaiser Posted December 24, 2021 Author Share Posted December 24, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-12-24 9:29 AM It means that if a thread has been deliberately dragged off topic (in Chatterbox or in any of the other forums) it's likely to be edited. If Chatterboxers want to rabbit on about Brexit ad infinitum on Brexit-related threads, that's fine. If they decide to infect other non-Brexit-related threads with the Brexit virus, that's not. Except that both of the threads that were deleted involved Brexit. The "makes you proud" included references to the stronger borders that were promised as a consequence of Brexit. The German thread referenced differences in "performance" between European countries with some posters questioning a relationship to Brexit. Its going to be very difficult to discuss anything happening if we are not allowed to mention the B word? Some might prefer that we move on and never mention it again but in reality it is going to impact on our lives going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 pelmetman - 2021-12-22 10:21 PM So just what can YOU BLAME on Brexit? >:-) ........ 5.......1.2 million job vacancies I suspect a large proportion of those vacancies are for all the extra people required to fill in all the extra forms needed for imports and exports. So they are just an additional cost of trade = higher prices. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 24, 2021 Share Posted December 24, 2021 CR The "Makes you proud?" thread began with discussions about refugees. 28 postings later on Page 1 good old Mr P used the unmentionable word "Brexit". Page 2 of the thread had 9 Brexits in it , Page 3 had 8 Brexits, and Page 4 had 6 Brexits. I don't know why that thread was targeted for removal, but (as explained above) Keithl and I were not responsible. If you want firm guidance about what will be permissible on Chatterbox in future and what won't, you'll need to ask the Administrators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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