chatterdog Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090622/twl-sarkozy-burkas-not-welcome-in-france-41f21e0.html. it will be interesting to see the outcome of this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatterdog Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 sorry the link isnt working, it was about the french president saying that the burka is not welcome in france as a code of dress and that it is not being worn as part of a religious dress code, so there is going to be a debate in the french parliment as to wether to allow it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J9withdogs Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Here's a link to the Times: LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Here is another link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8112821.stm Personally I think he is right. And fair play to the man for standing up and saying it. Now at least if we are confronted again with Muslim extremists shouting at our troops we can all chant back:- "Sarkozy - right idea!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 If a woman of her own accord chooses to wear this garment, whether her reasons are about religion, modesty, or fashion (yes, it's possible!), then I'd defend her right to do so. But if she's being told to wear it by other people (specifically male family members), I'd want to defend her right NOT to. The problem with this one is getting at what the WOMEN actually want (isn't it always?? :D ) Seriously though, I can understand Sarkozy wanting to "cut the knot" of this tricky question by simply banning it outright, but that doesn't seem to be the answer. And even if it was, he's probably not the most credible person to speak out for women showing more of their bodies! I don't think there's any alternative to the much longer route: continually emphasising that in France (and in the UK!) women must be treated with respect and equality, and making a real example of those fathers/husbands/brothers etc who clearly don't do so. We then hope that gradually the women concerned will take control of their own lives (and wardrobes), once they know the rest of us will support them. However, there are other issues: security springs to mind, as a Burkah can easily conceal weapons and explosives - or even a man! Also, a while ago there was an MP who insisted that women show their faces when they came to his surgery, as he didn't feel he could have a proper conversation with them otherwise. I can understand that too. On the whole, I don't like the things, and I DO think they degrade women (although perhaps not as much as Sarkozy 's lifestyle does!), but I'm no big fan of banning things just because I don't like them. So I'd allow women to wear them if they wish, severely punish men found forcing women to wear them, and expect some compromises from the woman - eg willingness to show her face when SHE initiates a meeting or conversation, and willingness to be searched by a woman when necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkc Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Well said Tony, I don't think anyone will be "coming along soon" to say it any better than that. Nice one. Regards PKC. "That your Sex are Naturally Tyrannical, is a Truth so thoroughly established as to admit of no dispute." In a letter to her husband, John Adams Abigail Adams (1744-1818) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Yeah what Tony says ...exactly if she chooses thats up to her but not forced . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 pkc - 2009-06-23 10:21 AM Well said Tony, I don't think anyone will be "coming along soon" to say it any better than that. Nice one. Regards PKC. Yes, well summarised Tony. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Tony, in the main I agree totally with your sentiments. However, as with everything there are always two sides. When I was serving in the Middle East I was waiting in a hotel foyer to meet some colleagues. A local Arabian man walks in with a female behind dressed in the full Burkha, as she passed through the 'Air Conditioned' entrance doors the breeze blew the bottom of her Burkha to reveal, Red leather thigh length boots, black fish net stockings and a rather short red leather mini skirt (I just happened to be looking that way at the time, honest guv) . The man registered at the desk and then beckoned her forward in to the lifts that led to the bedrooms (Conference facilities and social rooms were via a separate entrance). So it appeared, and this is just in my opinion as a people watcher, that perhaps the Burkha may also serve some women equally as well (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Am I right in thinking that the guy who shot and killed the Policewoman in the robbery of that Travel agent a year or so back escaped by dressing as a woman in a burka? I have tried to find the link but have had no luck. I for one have always thought it odd that motorcyclists were forbidden to entire our old offices with their helmets on so you could only see their eyes but nothing was said about ladies in Burkas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Found a few interesting links:- Seems like one of the 21/7 bombers used a Burka to get away as well. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23395090-details/I%20fled%20police%20in%20my%20mother-in-law's+burka,+says+217+bombing+suspect/article.do And here is a link re my original recolection. http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/200806413557954 Seems like a good enough reason to at least have a debate on their use seeing as how a motorcyclist is not allowed to keep a helmet on. It is not just petrol stations as indicated here:- http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/community/Forums/Categories/Topic/?topic-id=175211&message-id=2520392&__ia=message2520392#message2520392 Most Office blocks demand helmet removal. And to be fair I think it is a reasonable request. But if such a request is reasonable – why are Burkas exempt? Especially as we have two clear examples where they have been used as a disguise by a terrorist and a killer of an unarmed policewoman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Big Momma - 2009-06-23 5:32 PM Tony, in the main I agree totally with your sentiments. However, as with everything there are always two sides. When I was serving in the Middle East I was waiting in a hotel foyer to meet some colleagues. A local Arabian man walks in with a female behind dressed in the full Burkha, as she passed through the 'Air Conditioned' entrance doors the breeze blew the bottom of her Burkha to reveal, Red leather thigh length boots, black fish net stockings and a rather short red leather mini skirt (I just happened to be looking that way at the time, honest guv) . The man registered at the desk and then beckoned her forward in to the lifts that led to the bedrooms (Conference facilities and social rooms were via a separate entrance). So it appeared, and this is just in my opinion as a people watcher, that perhaps the Burkha may also serve some women equally as well (?)Nice way to get a Hooker into your room and past the critical eye of Security. When I used to work in Saudi Arabia we nearly always ended up flying Saudair and just before we were due to land at Heathrow, all the women used to file into the toilets to get the Guinness bottle gear off and put on jeans and sexy tops. Hypocrites or subjugated by the men in their own country? I think the latter. Women deserve much better than that. They are still living in the 14th century over there and if these fundamentalist loonies had their way we would also be doing exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffers Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 michele - 2009-06-23 4:17 PM Yeah what Tony says ...exactly if she chooses thats up to her but not forced . but if someone has been brainwashed or in polite terms conditioned to act in a certain way then how can they make a free informed choice, many muslim women claim they want to dress in this way, they undoubtedly believe that they do, I clearly remember my reaction to religious / cultural conditioning and the long hard efforts to free my mind from this 'conditioning' [brain-washing] to a point were I was free from pernicious influence and able to make a free choice :-> :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 peter - 2009-06-23 9:55 PM When I used to work in Saudi Arabia we nearly always ended up flying Saudair and just before we were due to land at Heathrow, all the women used to file into the toilets to get the Guinness bottle gear off and put on jeans and sexy tops. Hypocrites or subjugated by the men in their own country? And what of the muslim women who have lived in Western countries since their birth and normally would wear Jeans and Tee Shirts. Then the big publicity about banning the wearing of Burkhas and all of a sudden the jeans and Tee Shirts were covered with Burkhas, although you could still see the designer trainers. I am sure, as always, that there are always two sides to every story. I could open that old favourite about when we go to Muslim countries we are reminded, sometimes very strongly, what we can do, say, how to dress, what publications to read, what we can and cannot drink. However, for some foreigners coming over here we must respect 'their' culture and customs. How can we expect some cultures to wear crash helmets when riding Motorcycles over turbans. If they wish to wear turbans and cannot comply with the traffic laws of this country then surely they should not be permitted to ride motorcycles etc. etc. etc. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Well put Big Momma. Whichever way you look at it we are Kow-Towing to this pernicious so called religion through fear of upsetting some of them. But like you say, we have to abide by all their restrictive customs and idiosynchracies. P.C gone mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 My step mommy is a teacher in East London Lovely jublee :D The school asked the kids t remove them for PE . The answer was no . The school said but its Health & safety . They said no can do the school said but you can have your parents make you a special head wear that ties around the back but comes undone with a press stud just incase you get caught on something . The answer was no . The local iman came and there was bloody uproar . The crux is they wont be doing PE now . Now what I want to ask is how do they get a passport ? Well it suits to remove it then doesnt it . Actually we are the mugs funny how we stick to it for a passport but nothing else . Its a country of ? Built by ? for the benefit of ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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