michele Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 Ok who's up to explaining this to me please the run down version . I have not got a clue what they are on about is hamas good or bad ...come on you political guru's dont want to ask hubby who is quite capable on forcing his views on me well trying to anyway.. Would prefer to make up me own mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 A bit of a tall order Michelle but I will have a go. The Gaza strip used to be occupied territories - occupied by Israel because they said that the Gaza strip was used to fire rockets in to Israel (which is still happening it seems) so under the "road map" for peace Israel pulled out and elections held in Gaza. If this happened, the UK, USA and other countries promised substantial aid to Gaza. And I mean substantial aid! Hammas won the election but because Hammas has the destruction of Israel on its agenda, the countries that promised the Aid said they would not give it to a terrorist organisation. So a compromise was cobbled together where a joint government was set up with Hammas and Al Fattah (who had not done that well in the election) Three months later, this joint government has fallen apart and out come the guns again. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai Bry Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 MicheleDifficult one really. Bad as each other, different factions of the same belief. One was bourne out of Arafat's leadership and political views. Don't forget that his wife was a Christian!!!. Just like the SUNNI's & SHIA's in Iraq who blame each other for killing one of their holy men many years ago and that's why they are fighting each other.I'm sure someone will be along to give you a better insight, but it could get very political depending on your views.Thai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest caraprof Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Hamas and Fatah are most definitely not alike but are very different. Fatah is much more moderate and has accepted that the state of Israel has a right to exist, albeit in a slightly modified form with East Jersualem as the capital of a new Palestinian state.Hamas on the other hand is a violent and extremist Muslim party committed to the imposition of a Taliban-like Islamist regime in Gaza. Already Internet cafes are being closed and shops selling DVDs targeted for peddling Western corruption. Shortly arab women will not be allowed on the street unless fully veiled and eventually women will not be educated and have any freedoms at all, just as in Afghanistan before its liberation.Hamas is quite clear in its postion to Jews and their homeland. It would kill every Jew and eliminate the state of Israel.The Middle-East is now at a very different and dangerous crossroads with Hamas and its Iranian and Syrian paymasters in control.Finally, it's Gaza and Hamas, not Gazza (he's a footballer) and Hammas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 I nearly didn't read this ... I thought it was about a certain past-it footballer getting his kit off!!!!!!! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Mel B - 2007-06-16 5:08 PM I nearly didn't read this ... I thought it was about a certain past-it footballer getting his kit off!!!!!!! (lol) Please clarify - is that why you nearly didn't read it, or why you eventually did? I think Frank (Caraprof) has summed up the situation clearly and accurately (which is to say, he agrees with my view!). I've no first-hand knowledge, but I've tried to keep up, and my conclusions are the same as his. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 Ok , well reading this I have believe it or not got it now !.. Its nice to have opinions that aren't rammed down my throat ! I like to make up my own mind ... Thank you all I suppose its best to leave it now before I start another war on here...much appreciated ... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted June 16, 2007 Share Posted June 16, 2007 Can't fully agree with some of the comments. For a very long time there was a land of Palestine where a lot of Palestinians lived until the new state of Israel was formed partly on the land where they lived. The Israelis systematically cleansed large areas of the new Israel of Palestinans. Then in 1967 Israel defeated the combined Arab nations and increased their lands taking over the West Bank and Gaza etc. Since then they have set up settlements on what was left of the Palestinian lands and are now are building a wall which makes life almost impossible for the palestinians living there. The wall is supposed to keep out suicide bombers, wouldn't the Palestinians like a wall to keep out the Israeli helicopter gunships. In Gaza the West supported Fatah which was 'moderate' and corrupt. The people in Gaza in a democratic election voted in Hamas (violent and extreme)because they saw no future with Fatah. The West said we don't like this type of democracy (instead of wondering why Hamas had been voted in) so no promised aid but we will support Fatah against Hamas and now we have this awful mess. I believe we the WEST are creating monsters and will have to face the consequence of our meddling and support of Israel which does not seem to accept any limits to their reaction to aggression. A different point of view! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 16, 2007 Author Share Posted June 16, 2007 Col, I would consider answering if i had the knowledge . But I have not so I wont hence the thread in the first place i'm trying to understand it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest caraprof Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Col - 2007-06-16 9:33 PM Can't fully agree with some of the comments. For a very long time there was a land of Palestine where a lot of Palestinians lived until the new state of Israel was formed partly on the land where they lived. The Israelis systematically cleansed large areas of the new Israel of Palestinans. Then in 1967 Israel defeated the combined Arab nations and increased their lands taking over the West Bank and Gaza etc. Since then they have set up settlements on what was left of the Palestinian lands and are now are building a wall which makes life almost impossible for the palestinians living there. The wall is supposed to keep out suicide bombers, wouldn't the Palestinians like a wall to keep out the Israeli helicopter gunships. In Gaza the West supported Fatah which was 'moderate' and corrupt. The people in Gaza in a democratic election voted in Hamas (violent and extreme)because they saw no future with Fatah. The West said we don't like this type of democracy (instead of wondering why Hamas had been voted in) so no promised aid but we will support Fatah against Hamas and now we have this awful mess. I believe we the WEST are creating monsters and will have to face the consequence of our meddling and support of Israel which does not seem to accept any limits to their reaction to aggression. A different point of view! And a rather twisted point of view in some respects! You fail to mention that Israel's defeat of the Arab nations came about as a result of the Six Day War, when those Arab nations launched an unprovoked attack on the state of Israel, with the express intention of wiping it out.Israel, the only democracy in the entire area by the way, inflicted an ignominious defeat on the aggressors and thrashed them in, as the name implies, only six days. The lands taken by Israel were as a result of that war and not as a result of an Israeli expansion per se. No different for instance from all of the lands east of the Oder, which were German, but since 1945 now belong to Poland.Your remark about the helicopter gunships shows a very partisan approach as you must know that Israel has never launched an unprovoked attack on Gaza and has only ever retaliated to repeated bombings and atrocities.Finally, no Israeli has ever strapped nails bombs around his waist and gone into a Palestinian cafe, full of women and children, or in one case a wedding party, and let off his bomb, killing and maiming dozens of innocent civilians, from infants in prams to entire families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 17, 2007 Author Share Posted June 17, 2007 Umh .. maybe I should of taken this else where which has been pointed out to me but in saying that that does not mean that I am in anyway disapointed in the reply's . I just mean that politics brings out the ?in people which either way you think .But I dont want anyone to get into an argument I think there has been enough of that lately. So because of my ignorance in starting the thread in the first place I apologise however not totally because if people put what they think then obviously I get to understand it more ...just lets do it like grown ups. so far so good .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Michele, I think that a discussion of such subjects is very worthwhile, as long as the participants can keep it civil and accept that the other party holds a different viewpoint there's no reason why it should become an argument. I have no valuable contribution to this subject but I am finding it fascinating. Let the discussion continue. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Caraprof, If I kill your brother and you kill mine that is not retaliation. We are both murderers. The Israelis do not have suicide bombers but they do have helicopter gunships which they use against suspected Hamas regularly. Sometimes they are successful sometimes not, but on many occasions innocent men, women and children who happen to be in the vicinity are killed. I doubt the dead make make any distinctions. Yes, the Israelis had a great victory in 1967, incidently which they started by bombing the Egyptian Air Force but could reasonably claim that an attack was imminent by Egypt and others. It was the aftermath of the war which is critical to the present situation. Israel took control of a number of Palestinian lands, in particular the Gaza Strip and the West Bank probably believing that a greater Israel was a more secure and powerful Israel. "So they had a war and lost a bit of real-estate", was Donald Rumsfield's comment. That is not how the Palestinians saw it. The average Palestinian didn't have much to begin with but now had little or nothing except a place in a refugee camp and was prepared to fight and bomb (and die) to get that little back. And that is what we have had for 40 years and unless Israel makes serious compromises on the Palestinian lands then they will have another 40 years of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest caraprof Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Quote: "Caraprof, If I kill your brother and you kill mine that is not retaliation. We are both murderers."It's this kind of liberal nonsense that has put Britain in the sorry state that it's in today!Some would call it justice! If the Palestinians send their suicide bombers into Israel's market places and then the Israelis retaliate, good for them I say.If the Arabs ceased their murders, there would be no gunships. Unfortunately, as we can see in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gaza these people are cruel and barbaric monsters who think nothing of slaughtering their men, women and children, let alone Israelis.Israel gave them Gaza and look what they've done with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howie Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Missed your calling by the look of it Frank. A couple of weeks as a mediator out in the Middle East and everything would be tickittyboo in no time. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Well good for me as I'm getting to see two side's and had a chat with Hubby.. He tends to see it Franks way .. I'm still undecided as yet but I will get there in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I have tried reasoned argument and historical perspective - don't think there is much else to say on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest caraprof Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Col - 2007-06-18 4:16 PM I have tried reasoned argument and historical perspective - don't think there is much else to say on the matter. No you didn't. You came out with liberal twaddle and a totally blinkered and anti-Israel view on the situation. You could try saying that if the Palestinians would stop sending suicide bombers, would stop tunneling under the border as they did recently and abducting Israeli soldiers, and would stop their internecine strife, where they seem happy to be slaughtering their own people, then perhaps Israel would return to the negotiating table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 ok nearly so as it is so far the Jews are right the others are mad ! ..Please take no offence at the words! The palastinians slaughter their own people and can not be trusted > The isralites are civilised the palastinians are not ... thats what I have gleemed so far .. So question then why is it one minute the jewish people are right inthe eye's of the nation well Bush & Blair ...the next thing they are telling the jewish people off for being so heavy handed when the other week they attacked them and people died . Seems to me if being attacked they have the right to defend themselfs ...So what is it the ???bosses want . I dont know ..bloody madness why cant we live in peace . If women ruled I think there would be no wars . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 "If women ruled I think there would be no wars ." What makes you think that 'Chele? Maggie was in charge of the UK when we went to war over the Falklands. Not saying she was right or wrong, just making a point. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Ah yes Dave, but was Maggie REALLY a woman or a machine???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 THIS IS MOST UNPLEASANT, DO NOT READ IT IF YOU ARE EASILY UPSET BUT IT DESCRIBES WHAT REALLY HAS HAPPENED AND HAPPENED AGAIN ONLY LAST YEAR - (QANA 2006). Qana-South Lebanon: the place where the Israeli shells killed 102 people, mostly women and children, taking refuge in a United Nations headquarters on April 18, 1996. Qana, southern Lebanon - It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disembowelled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong. In front of a burning building of the UN's Fijian battalion headquarters, a girl held a corpse in her arms, the body of a grey- haired man whose eyes were staring at her, and she rocked the corpse back and forth in her arms, keening and weeping and crying the same words over and over: "My father, my father." A Fijian UN soldier stood amid a sea of bodies and, without saying a word, held aloft the body of a headless child. "The Israelis have just told us they'll stop shelling the area," a UN soldier said, shaking with anger. "Are we supposed to thank them?" In the remains of a burning building - the conference room of the Fijian UN headquarters - a pile of corpses was burning. The roof had crashed in flames onto their bodies, cremating them in front of my eyes. When I walked towards them, I slipped on a human hand... Israel's slaughter of civilians in this terrible 10-day offensive - 206 by last night - has been so cavalier, so ferocious, that not a Lebanese will forgive this massacre. There had been the ambulance attacked on Saturday, the sisters killed in Yohmor the day before, the 2-year-old girl decapitated by an Israeli missile four days ago. And earlier yesterday, the Israelis had slaughtered a family of 12 - the youngest was a four- day-old baby - when Israeli helicopter pilots fired missiles into their home. Shortly afterwards, three Israeli jets dropped bombs only 250 metres from a UN convoy on which I was travelling, blasting a house 30 feet into the air in front of my eyes. Travelling back to Beirut to file my report on the Qana massacre to the Independent last night, I found two Israeli gunboats firing at the civilian cars on the river bridge north of Sidon. Every foreign army comes to grief in Lebanon. The Sabra and Chatila massacre of Palestinians by Israel's militia allies in 1982 doomed Israel's 1982 invasion. Now the Israelis are stained again by the bloodbath at Qana, the scruffy little Lebanese hill town where the Lebanese believe Jesus turned water into wine. The Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres may now wish to end this war. But the Hizbollah are not likely to let him. Israel is back in the Lebanese quagmire. Nor will the Arab world forget yesterday'a terrible scenes. The blood of all the refugees ran quite literally in streams from the shell-smashed UN compound restaurant in which the Shiite Muslims from the hill villages of southern Lebanon - who had heeded Israel's order to leave their homes - had pathetically sought shelter. Fijian and French soldiers heaved another group of dead - they lay with their arms tightly wrapped around each other - into blankets. A French UN trooper muttered oaths to himself as he opened a bag in which he was dropping feet, fingers, pieces of people's arms. And as we walked through this obscenity, a swarm of people burst into the compound. They had driven in wild convoys down from Tyre and began to pull the blankets off the mutilated corpses of their mothers and sons and daughters and to shriek "Allahu Akbar" (God is Great") and to threaten the UN troops. We had suddenly become not UN troops and journalists but Westerners, Israel's allies, an object of hatred and venom. One bearded man with fierce eyes stared at us, his face dark with fury. "You are Americans," he screamed at us. "Americans are dogs. You did this. Americans are dogs." President Bill Clinton has allied himself with Israel in its war against "terrorism" and the Lebanese, in their grief, had not forgotten this. Israel's official expression of sorrow was rubbing salt in their wounds. "I would like to be made into a bomb and blow myself up amid the Israelis," one old man said. As for the Hizbollah, which has repeatedly promised that Israelis will pay for their killing of Lebanese civilians, its revenge cannot be long in coming. Operation Grapes of Wrath may then turn out then to be all too aptly named. http://www.robert-fisk.com Probably similar to the scene inside an Israeli restaurant after a suicide bomber. The bad guys are not just on one side. Good on them Caraprof. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Oh I'm getting all confused now ..I understand that all this is going on ! What I dont understand is WHY who started it I am at the moment reading some stuff on it trying to get a grip of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest caraprof Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Oh God, how pathetic. Go on, tug at the heart strings but then tell us why Israel invaded Lebanon. Could it have been anything to do with another unprovoked kidnapping of six Israeli soldiers?If you like I will describe what happened when the suicide bomber exploded his nail bomb in the restaurant where an Israeli wedding couple, their friends, family and lots of children were blown into pieces.What you cannot seem to get into your soppy liberal brain is that Israel only ever reacts to attacks. It doesn't start these things. If the Muslim fanatics would just cease their constant barrage of rockets, suicide bombings and kidnappings then they wouldn't be shelled by the IsraelisYou really ought to stop reading the Socialist Worker and try to get a more balanced view of world events. What's happening today in Gaza is what would happen all over the middle east if these monsters were in power. They care nothing for human life and will massacre their own in the cause of their own brand of Islam.Edited to add: Remember, Israel is a democracy, the only one amidst the entire corrupt Arab states that surround them. They have a proper army that, where possible, acts according to the Geneva Convention. War is terrible, as your little cut and paste exercise shows, but if there were no attacks on Israel then there would be no shellings and no gunships.Your ludicrous statement: If I kill your brother and you then kill me we are both murderers" shows how twisted your logic is. If you didn't kill my brother in the first place then there is no need for me to seek justice by killing you! If the Arabs don't try to kill Israelis then they have nothing to fear from Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Palastinians keep on backing the wrong side . They were friendly with Adolf when they thought he would win. After the second world war the western Community had alot of sympathy with the Jewish people understandably after what had happened . The Arab world had courted Hitler & the facists when they thought Germany would be in control of europe we all know where that ended. They went on to back the wrong horse the second time for the last fifty years they have courted what became the crumbling soviet union ..They keep backing the wrong horse. The world isn't a nice place and people will disagree but the Arab states seem content on self destruction ..Jewish mothers when asked say they are proud that their son's are conscripts and that they are fighting for their country. If you ask a Palastinian mother she is having 3 more she hopes they are all boy's and she hopes they will all grow up to be suicide bombers and kill jewish people.. Salman Rushtie has just been given a nighthood ...they still issued a Fatwa on him . People question the bible everyday we don't go around issuing a fatwa on anyone. Has salman found them out ?? I wonder have they the right to do this their books as in the satanic verses should or are supposed to promote humanity kindness no killing ... Emporer's clothes I think i finally have made up my mind now !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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