Grass, or Public Legal Duty?

[BGD]

Here's the scenario:-

 

You're employed by a Company.

You pay your hefty taxes, and NI, on all your income; and then indirect taxes (VAT etc) on almost everything you spend.

You're working hard to provide for your family; to pay your mortgage, etc.

 

Ten doors down from you lives aguy who used to be an employee at the same Company that you work for.

He was made redundant a couple of years back.

Every since then, he's been officially unemployed.

He signs on at the Jobcentre every two weeks. He gets paid Jobseekers Allowance each fortnight, his NI stamp is paid, he gets Child Allowance for his two children, he gets a rebate on his Council Tax. His children get free school meals each day. The Local Authority provide free school uniforms for his children. He, his wife, and children pay nothing for medical prescriptions.

He gets a reabte on his gas and electricity bills. Social Services provide a Clothing Allowance for him to spend on his childrens clothing needs.

 

Now, you know that he's in fact been and still is working "on the side" a couple of days a week....doing the odd bit of decorating for others for cash, cleaning windows for cash, a spot of car mechanics for other locals from his garage.

 

 

 

My question, my genuine question for debate, is what if anything would you honestly do?

And why?

 

 

 

 

(Remember peeps, stick to the issues please, not other posters)

[Guest Tracker]

I would inform the DSS fraud line as I have an aversion to subsidising other people whilst I, as a 'below national average' income household continue to see my overall tax levels rising as a percentage of my own income.

 

I get no state benefits yet (apart from the £250 winter warmer) but neither do I need any as we are self sufficient, having saved and worked all our lives - and been bloody lucky on our choices of retirement dates!

[Klyne]

I suppose you have to ask yourself whether you would like to swap places. If you actually have any proof that he is doing wrong you must report it but not on hearsay.

 

David

[michele]

Report him :D AND I wouldnt even feel guilty :-D

 

[nightrider]

The question you should ask yourselves is this...... what would you do if YOU were in that mans situation? it may be that the man cannot get a job because of his age, or he might be able to get a job but the job does not pay him enough to cover his expences and he will slowly sink into a sea of debt, not feckless debt but debts brought about by utility bills etc.

Yes, I will be the first one to say that such a thing does stick in ones throat but I would never 'grass' him up, that is beyond the pail (there are two ways of spelling pail, as in 'pale' both mean the same)

So if you were struggling on £65 per week, would you turn down the opportunity to earn a few pounds cash money on the side?

In a situation like that survivalism kicks in.

[Hymer C 9.]

To me there are two sides to this debate:1.  If the person had been employed and worked hard to better his lot then through no fault of his own found himself out of work, with a family to take care of and he had the opportunity to earn a few extra pounds to keep him and his family with a roof over there heads until he could again find employment, then NO I would not report them, but think there but for luck goes I.    (and it did once)2. If the person has no intention of finding a job, but is claiming and working on the side and just working the system, then YES I would report them.3.  Please do not tell me I can not tell one from another because I certainly can and no one has to be particularly clever to work it out.  Carol.

[omidknight]

did I know someone once who was claiming and ran a club book and may have made 10% on a sale to a friend? Will I lay awake tonight worrying about it - I think not

[nightrider]

Carol, like you I would know right away who is coming the oracle and working a flanker, but personally I couldn't make that phone call to the benefits people, if the man gets caught he pays the price, its all down to the individual I suppose.

[nightrider]

In this debate there are 'fors and against' but no one has yet said what they would do if they were thrown on the dole?

[Guest peter]

Another pointless thread.

[nightrider]

peter - 2008-11-19 11:57 PM

 

Another pointless thread.

Peter,

So you are condemning BGD's thread as pointless? simple solution, dont respond to it then.

[howie]

Live and let live. What others get up to is entirely their own business and before we all start moralising ask yourselves how many times we have paid 'cash in hand' or been 'economical with the truth' with re. to tax returns etc.

Always put your family first, and if this or any other government wants a return to fair play and decency then let them set the right example by getting rid of the corruption they so blatently practise, with impunity it seems, on a regular basis.

[nightrider]

howie - 2008-11-20 12:31 AM

 

Live and let live. What others get up to is entirely their own business and before we all start moralising ask yourselves how many times we have paid 'cash in hand' or been 'economical with the truth' with re. to tax returns etc.

Always put your family first, and if this or any other government wants a return to fair play and decency then let them set the right example by getting rid of the corruption they so blatently practise, with impunity it seems, on a regular basis.

 

Hear hear, in this time of economic disaster instead of turning informer would it not be far better to help each other out? usually it is the blue collar workers facing the sticky end of the stick, but we now have the phenomenon of the once highly paid professionals breaking down in tears when told to clear their desks and vacate the building within the hour, having been made redundant. It is all well and good claiming the high moral ground when you are in a job slagging off the unemployed but it is a different kettle of fish when you yourself are thrown on the scrap heap, a lot of these people will never work again and are going to be faced with marital breakdowns, home repossessions and in a lot of cases bankruptcy.

I think a lot of people like the ostrich bury their heads in the sand and think it won't happen to them, I did ask members who have responded to this string what would they do, if they were thrown on the dole and had to live on £60 per week, as yet no one has replied.

[Rainbow-Chasers]

Well i think, despite the extra help with rent and council tax (they don't pay it all, and apparently pay in horrific arrears - most recipients being evicted before it gets processed) Surviving on dole money of 65 a week, when everything else has risen so dramatically such as fuel, food etc I would really struggle!

 

If he has recently come out of work, then it would be even harder as there has to be some adaption time to get used to low wages.

 

What i DO have a problem with is non working, have no intention of working single parents whom want nothing to do with familes, they get a free flat etc and just keep getting pregnant cos they have never worked. That is laziness.

 

And before anyone argues that it is not laziness, and they are victims - i do know a young woman who still works despite having a child, and a guy that ran home to mummy when he found out she was pregnant - i have the utmost respect for her...she struggles, but gets by!

[Victor Meldrew]

I feel these parasites poor unfortunates have enough money to deal with, without having to worry about the threat of being reported for thieving from honest tax payers trying to make ends meet. The fact that most decent people work hard all their lives without ponsing claiming benefits should not reflect badly on the work shy unemployed.

 

Knowing that my taxes are helping to keep these lazy berstards poor people in luxury out of poverty fills me with rage a warm satisfying glow.

 

[BGD]

Victor - priceless!

[nightrider]

Victor Meldrew - 2008-11-25 1:31 PM

 

I feel these parasites poor unfortunates have enough money to deal with, without having to worry about the threat of being reported for thieving from honest tax payers trying to make ends meet. The fact that most decent people work hard all their lives without ponsing claiming benefits should not reflect badly on the work shy unemployed.

 

Knowing that my taxes are helping to keep these lazy berstards poor people in luxury out of poverty fills me with rage a warm satisfying glow.

 

Victor,

very good, when we go down the path of snitching on or denouncing friends or neighbours we have hit rock bottom, all those calling for snitching and informing have as far as I am concerned never experienced the pain, poverty and humiliation of being jobless on the dole.

[Victor Meldrew]

knight of the road - 2008-11-25 1:57 PM

 

Victor Meldrew - 2008-11-25 1:31 PM

 

I feel these parasites poor unfortunates have enough money to deal with, without having to worry about the threat of being reported for thieving from honest tax payers trying to make ends meet. The fact that most decent people work hard all their lives without ponsing claiming benefits should not reflect badly on the work shy unemployed.

 

Knowing that my taxes are helping to keep these lazy berstards poor people in luxury out of poverty fills me with rage a warm satisfying glow.

 

Victor,

very good, when we go down the path of snitching on or denouncing friends or neighbours we have hit rock bottom, all those calling for snitching and informing have as far as I am concerned never experienced the pain, poverty and humiliation of being jobless on the dole.

 

No I have never experienced being on the dole because there is always a job for those who really want one. And don’t talk to me about poverty; I believed the kitchen sink was a bath until I was 12 years old.

[nightrider]

Victor Meldrew - 2008-11-25 2:06 PM

 

knight of the road - 2008-11-25 1:57 PM

 

Victor Meldrew - 2008-11-25 1:31 PM

 

I feel these parasites poor unfortunates have enough money to deal with, without having to worry about the threat of being reported for thieving from honest tax payers trying to make ends meet. The fact that most decent people work hard all their lives without ponsing claiming benefits should not reflect badly on the work shy unemployed.

 

Knowing that my taxes are helping to keep these lazy berstards poor people in luxury out of poverty fills me with rage a warm satisfying glow.

 

Victor,

very good, when we go down the path of snitching on or denouncing friends or neighbours we have hit rock bottom, all those calling for snitching and informing have as far as I am concerned never experienced the pain, poverty and humiliation of being jobless on the dole.

 

No I have never experienced being on the dole because there is always a job for those who really want one. And don’t talk to me about poverty; I believed the kitchen sink was a bath until I was 12 years old.

 

Victor,

Slight alteration to your post "there is always a job for those that want one" should read "there WAS always a job for those that want one"

[BGD]

Sorry Malcolm, but I don't really see that.

 

In the end it depends on just how much you'll do, just how far you'll put yourself out, to find/create paid emplyment for yourself; and on the extent to which you are prepared to reduce your emplyment sights in the short term in the hope that once you are back on the employment scene you can begin in the longer term to climb the ladder again.

 

Some people have the drive/tenacity to move house/region/city/even to move country, to find work.

 

Some people have the tenacity to start a business for themselves, or to become self-emplyed, if no-one else is offering a job that they are prepared to do.

 

Some people go to college of university for a period of time to gain skills or knowledge that will make them more appealling to companies, or in new employment areas where there is a lower amount of supply/a higher demand than the skill/trade they were in previously, or to enable them to start their own business.

 

Some people are willing to take menial, very low-paid or part-time work in order to get back into the labour market.

 

I do not think it is impossible to find/create for yourself another job.

 

But I do undertand that many people may not, on balance, wish to do the radical things that they could do in order to secure one; or have the drive to make the changes and expend the substantial effort that may be necessary to obtain some form of employment.

 

 

 

[Mike Parke]

Drop him in it without a qualm!!. I have always said that whilst we, the taxpayer, have to 'assist' those worse of than ourselves through taxation I do not like anyone kicking a taxpayer whilst he is down. There are jobs about, even now, if one tries hard enough to get one!

[nightrider]

Although in times past (a long time ago) I have worked for employers but I have always been the type to find my own work in a self employed capacity.

I started working for myself at the age of 29 after I came out of the army when I carried on in my trade as a plumber, one day I was in uniform the next day I was in overalls, all it took was an advertisement in a local paper, sit back and wait for the phone to ring, never looked back since. Whatever skill or talent you may have, someone will always buy it.

[nightrider]

Mike Parke - 2008-11-25 3:33 PM

 

Drop him in it without a qualm!!. I have always said that whilst we, the taxpayer, have to 'assist' those worse of than ourselves through taxation I do not like anyone kicking a taxpayer whilst he is down. There are jobs about, even now, if one tries hard enough to get one!

 

Mike,

You are tax payer now, but what if in the near or distant future you lost your job and had to sign on, what then? would you still have the same attitude when your income has dropped through the floor?

I personally could not drop someone in it and and if I found out one of my friends had dropped someone in it, they would no longer be a friend of mine. Its ok having lofty ideals but when push comes to shove what do you do? If you were on £60 per week dole money and bills were cascading through your letterbox and someone offered you a couple of days cash in the hand money I would say lofty ideals would go out of the window.

[BGD]

knight of the road - 2008-11-25 5:26 PM

 

Mike Parke - 2008-11-25 3:33 PM

 

Drop him in it without a qualm!!. I have always said that whilst we, the taxpayer, have to 'assist' those worse of than ourselves through taxation I do not like anyone kicking a taxpayer whilst he is down. There are jobs about, even now, if one tries hard enough to get one!

 

Mike,

You are tax payer now, but what if in the near or distant future you lost your job and had to sign on, what then? would you still have the same attitude when your income has dropped through the floor?

I personally could not drop someone in it and and if I found out one of my friends had dropped someone in it, they would no longer be a friend of mine. Its ok having lofty ideals but when push comes to shove what do you do? If you were on £60 per week dole money and bills were cascading through your letterbox and someone offered you a couple of days cash in the hand money I would say lofty ideals would go out of the window.

 

Interesting.

 

So for you, committing some types of criminal activities are OK if you are receiving Social Security benefits.

 

So, in addition to criminal fraud, which other criminal activities do you feel to be OK for a person on the Dole to engage in?

 

And which other crimes would be included in your list of those where, if any friend of yours reported that crime to the Police (as they have a legal duty so to do), you would take such offence that you'd reject their company forthwith?

Stealing? From whom exactly would it be OK for them to report the theft, and from whom would their reporting of the theft earn them your cold-shoulder?

Burglary?

Rape?

Murder?

 

Where do you draw your individual moral compass line between the crimes you feel that a person receiving Social Security benefits has some sort of moral right in your opinion to commit on others, and when not?

 

 

 

[nightrider]

BGD - 2008-11-25 10:53 PM

 

knight of the road - 2008-11-25 5:26 PM

 

Mike Parke - 2008-11-25 3:33 PM

 

Drop him in it without a qualm!!. I have always said that whilst we, the taxpayer, have to 'assist' those worse of than ourselves through taxation I do not like anyone kicking a taxpayer whilst he is down. There are jobs about, even now, if one tries hard enough to get one!

 

Mike,

You are tax payer now, but what if in the near or distant future you lost your job and had to sign on, what then? would you still have the same attitude when your income has dropped through the floor?

I personally could not drop someone in it and and if I found out one of my friends had dropped someone in it, they would no longer be a friend of mine. Its ok having lofty ideals but when push comes to shove what do you do? If you were on £60 per week dole money and bills were cascading through your letterbox and someone offered you a couple of days cash in the hand money I would say lofty ideals would go out of the window.

 

Interesting.

 

So for you, committing some types of criminal activities are OK if you are receiving Social Security benefits.

 

So, in addition to criminal fraud, which other criminal activities do you feel to be OK for a person on the Dole to engage in?

 

And which other crimes would be included in your list of those where, if any friend of yours reported that crime to the Police (as they have a legal duty so to do), you would take such offence that you'd reject their company forthwith?

Stealing? From whom exactly would it be OK for them to report the theft, and from whom would their reporting of the theft earn them your cold-shoulder?

Burglary?

Rape?

Murder?

 

Where do you draw your individual moral compass line between the crimes you feel that a person receiving Social Security benefits has some sort of moral right in your opinion to commit on others, and when not?

 

 

 

BGD,

Are you a full shilling or what? read my post again. Where does it say I would not report a burglar, rapist or murderer to the police? of course I would, what I am talking about here is making a couple of quid by doing odd jobs for a friend, relative, neighbour or whoever, in order to eke things out, not going on shoplifting expeditions, car thefts, house breaking and the like.

No where in my post does it say that I would support or condone any criminal activity while someone is claiming the dole, yes, working while on the dole is an offence, but I would be prone to turning a blind eye to some one who was only making a FEW paltry pounds while claiming.

Do YOU stick to the letter of the law? can you honestly tell me that you have never transgressed the law however small?

I was under the impression Jesus Christ died 2000 years ago he must have come back to earth in the guise of BGD, before you accuse me of living in a thieves kitchen I come from a practicing Christian family and my son in law is a man of the cloth (which doesn't) make me any better than the next man, I have read the replies to this thread with interest and not one has replied saying what they would do if thrown on the dole, dont say you would seek out another job, you may try, but there is a distinct possiblity that you wont get one, what would you do then?