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Grenfell Tower
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userViolet1956
Posted: 15 June 2017 6:58 PM
Subject: Grenfell Tower
 


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I logged on because I thought I would see some comment about the tragedy that has befallen the poor people in the dreadful fire in London. We all like to knock 'elf an' safety" from time to time but something has seriously gone wrong here. TM doesn't seem to have covered herself in glory by not meeting people who were affected. I note that security concerns have been mentioned as the reason why she did not choose to meet people affected by the tragedy. I'm a little sceptical because she is the PM and therefore likely to be surrounded by people who can protect her from any threat to her personal safety. If any one of us were Prime Minister would we have made the same decision?

Veronica
userBulletguy
Posted: 15 June 2017 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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It hardly surprises me she made her excuses and left.....it seems Grenfell tower is where the commoners live, the little people.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40291372

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/15/london-fire-17-confirmed-dead-as-police-expect-more-fatalities-after-tower-block-blaze-latest
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 June 2017 9:10 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-15 6:58 PM

I logged on because I thought I would see some comment about the tragedy that has befallen the poor people in the dreadful fire in London. We all like to knock 'elf an' safety" from time to time but something has seriously gone wrong here. TM doesn't seem to have covered herself in glory by not meeting people who were affected. I note that security concerns have been mentioned as the reason why she did not choose to meet people affected by the tragedy. I'm a little sceptical because she is the PM and therefore likely to be surrounded by people who can protect her from any threat to her personal safety. If any one of us were Prime Minister would we have made the same decision?

Veronica


And what could she do or say? ........Pretentious posturing means bog all .......



userViolet1956
Posted: 15 June 2017 10:40 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2017-06-15 9:10 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-15 6:58 PM

I logged on because I thought I would see some comment about the tragedy that has befallen the poor people in the dreadful fire in London. We all like to knock 'elf an' safety" from time to time but something has seriously gone wrong here. TM doesn't seem to have covered herself in glory by not meeting people who were affected. I note that security concerns have been mentioned as the reason why she did not choose to meet people affected by the tragedy. I'm a little sceptical because she is the PM and therefore likely to be surrounded by people who can protect her from any threat to her personal safety. If any one of us were Prime Minister would we have made the same decision?

Veronica


And what could she do or say? ........Pretentious posturing means bog all .......



I agree Dave that pretentious posturing is meaningless and there is little she could do or say that would make the situation any better, however she is someone who says she listens. She may have been advised to make this decision because of fears of public disorder that not only posed a risk to her but also to others. Few people seem to be coming to her defence. I perceive that the knives are out for her even among those upon whom she could rely for support previously. It will be interesting to see which of her ministers are loyal enough to defend her actions.

Veronica
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:51 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.
userantony1969
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:58 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-16 6:51 AM

Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.


Stop taking refugees , send back refugees who aren't real refugees which means most of em , end of immigration , stop our crazy overseas aid ... Money and space freed up no problem without even thinking about it
userStuartO
Posted: 16 June 2017 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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I expect we'll learn that councils, short of money, were taking the cheaper option of combustable cladding, not realising it would act like a wick to spread fire quickly. Failure of H&S oversight within these councils and of central safety oversight too. 

And failure of journalists to highlight a known problem?  Theresa May will probably have had no knowledge of this bad decision making but will get the blame anyway.

And the journalists are encouraging more anger, more demands, including a young child ranting at the Mayor of London who has obviously been schooled by someone to deliver a newsworthy performance for the camera.  No respect, no manners, no gratitude for all that they have had at the Taxpayers' expense, just anger and more and more expectation.

Clearly we must remedy the excess fire risks in other tower blocks but let's also stop encouraging bad, demanding and angry behaviour and bad journalism.
userBop
Posted: 16 June 2017 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:58 AM

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:51 AM

Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.


Stop taking refugees , send back refugees who aren't real refugees which means most of em , end of immigration , stop our crazy overseas aid ... Money and space freed up no problem without even thinking about it


There's no denying that this has been a terrible tragedy but in mind it has also identified the scale and the associated costs of having so many immigrants/refugees in this country.

Between 2004 and 2010 I saw very close-up just how UK PLC worked on the matter of refugee/immigration and the only words that come to mind is: "A total farse of epic proportions".
userPJay
Posted: 16 June 2017 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Surely it's the council who are to blame ? I thought they where stopping building these high rise flats?

seeing the pics of victims , it would appear that the majority of them are immigrants, even the one who's flat (Fridge ) caused the damage. He left the flat door open while warning neighbours , so that did not help. And people carrying suit cases down the stairs would have caused extra problems
As for staying put , as was apparently the order, WELL that in itself is ridiculous , but how many could not speak english???

PJay
userStuartO
Posted: 16 June 2017 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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We're relying on untested witness statements from people who might or might not have even been there so far, so I think we have to take them with a pinch of salt.

How can a domestic fridge "explode" and cause such a rapidly accelerating fire?
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:58 AM

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:51 AM

Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.


Stop taking refugees , send back refugees who aren't real refugees which means most of em , end of immigration , stop our crazy overseas aid ... Money and space freed up no problem without even thinking about it

Thats already being done https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2017/may/27/asylum-seekers-silent-scandal-home-office-legal-aid-cuts-refugees but it won't solve the housing crisis. Just another distraction from the elephant in the room that we need to stop choking our cities with the so-called Green Belt and build enough housing. But they don't want to do that because they are making too much money out of the housing crisis and don't want to bring house prices down.
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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When I bought my house (after it was given a clean bill of health by the surveyor) I found upstairs power sockets wired in with 2 core 3amp cable running under carpet and fused at 30 amps. Residential Tower blocks are always going to be dangerous because you nver lknow if you are living above a plonker like that.
So called ''Red Tape'' like Fire Regulations and 'Elf and Safety' have been much maligned of late. But if they had been observed the fire would have been contained in the offending dwelling until the Fire Brigade got thereto put it out - unless they were obstructed by hundreds of people coming down the stairs with suitcases. Thats why people were advised to stay in their flats.
userStuartO
Posted: 16 June 2017 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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John52 - 2017-06-16 12:00 PM ..... we need to stop choking our cities with the so-called Green Belt and build enough housing. But they don't want to do that because they are making too much money out of the housing crisis and don't want to bring house prices down.


To you John52, there's always a "they" who are conspiring to obstruct and exploit.  Isn't that a very shallow and blinkered view of life?
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 June 2017 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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I've no idea what refugees has to do with this fire though it was bound to find it's way in somewhere i suppose. I despair about some peoples lack of basic humanity....it's pretty sick.

30 are now confirmed dead with 12 critical and more than 70 still unaccounted for.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-met-police-latest-news-updates-a7793196.html

At least the Queen and Prince William have visited.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40298473
userantony1969
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave


Clearly we need to know where Michael Caine was. Just let the fire investigators do their job before commenting.
userViolet1956
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:58 AM

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:51 AM

Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.


Stop taking refugees , send back refugees who aren't real refugees which means most of em , end of immigration , stop our crazy overseas aid ... Money and space freed up no problem without even thinking about it

I see no evidence which suggests that the current or previous governments intend to withdraw from the Refugee Convention Antony so it is likely that we will continue to receive people claiming to be refugees and then to be obliged to make efforts to sort out the genuine from the fake who manage to get here, at least for number of years. John’s link to an article in the “Grauniad” provides an insight into the inadequacies of the systems we have in place to make that sift. I wouldn’t be too hasty in deciding whether the inhabitants of the Grenfell tower come in the “faker” or undeserving category and even if they did I do I believe, as I am sure you do, that they deserved to die.

As far as John’s observations regarding the Green Belt are concerned I note that there are now moves to require local authorities to identify areas of the Green Belt that may be suitable for development. As someone who lives on the outskirts of the Green Belt around London I think that this is all well and good but I worry that those areas that may be released for housing development will become mere cash cows for developers and will do little to ease our housing crisis. We need more social housing everywhere in the UK particularly in areas around major conurbations where people have the best chance of gaining employment. In the 60s when I was growing up our low rise council house with its small garden was just about adequate for our needs. These high-rise blocks in London appear pretty dismal as social housing for families with children or the infirm quite apart from the obvious fire safety issues that have been writ large over the last few days,

Veronica

userantony1969
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:34 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave


With you on that ... Good job the white folk of this country who are the main ones affected by terrorism in this country haven't rioted every time they've had to wait for news of the dead ... WTF does beating up folk have to do with getting answers ???
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM
will do little to ease our housing crisis.


The difference in price of land with planning permission and that without is what makes most money - if thats not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is. The more planning permission granted, the less that difference would be and the less scope for corruption.
That aside, surely any new homes will ease the housing crisis?
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:34 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave

But they didn't ask why she didn't do a walkabout.
They asked why she didn't meet any of the survivors like Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan did
And they got an equally feeble excuse as we did when we asked why she wouldn't debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV
Same Old Tories: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473
Looks like if they held the election now Corbyn would be in.

Edited by John52 2017-06-16 7:08 PM
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave


Clearly we need to know where Michael Caine was. Just let the fire investigators do their job before commenting.


Oh!! Sorry, didn't realise I couldn't make any comments.

Note to oneself.......... Don't make comments until full public enquiry ends in ten years time.
userViolet1956
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:34 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave

I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public at this location after these events. I don’t doubt that she is as distressed as anyone about the loss of life. Making political capital out of this is tawdry in the extreme and the degree to which prominent figures in the Labour party resile from doing so will be a measure of their suitability for government in my eyes. We need honest and sincere people in politics and not point scorers.

Veronica
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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John52 - 2017-06-16 7:04 PM

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:34 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave

But they didn't ask why she didn't do a walkabout.
They asked why she didn't meet any of the survivors like Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan did
.


So where did they do their meeting?
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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PS: Looks like Jeremy Corbyn did do a walkabout. I don't think anyone expected that of Theresa May.. But she could at least have spoken to a few of the survivors?
usertonyishuk
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Probably more worrying is some jihadist carrying a can of petrol near some of these named clad buildings in the media.

Rgds
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-16 8:52 AM

I expect we'll learn that councils, short of money, were taking the cheaper option of combustable cladding,


Kensington & Chelsea is the richest borough in the country. Not short of money when you see what they pay their Chief Exec. And the cheaper option would be no cladding as originally built.
userViolet1956
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-16 6:56 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM
will do little to ease our housing crisis.


The difference in price of land with planning permission and that without is what makes most money - if thats not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is. The more planning permission granted, the less that difference would be and the less scope for corruption.
That aside, surely any new homes will ease the housing crisis?


I think you and I would agree John that the scope for corruption is probably more than we would contemplate. I am happy for areas of the green belt to be identified as suitable for development but I want that development to reflect the need for more social housing and I don't trust the private sector to do that. I want local authorities to be given the funds to build social housing on green belt land and to retain the management of it.

Veronica
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:47 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:24 PM
I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public
Veronica

I don't think anyone expected her to walk among the people like Jeremy Corbyn.
But she avoided them altogether.
Could she not have met some of them in a safe location like the Queen did?.
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