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Grenfell Tower
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userJohn52
Posted: 20 June 2017 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-20 8:29 AM

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....


I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!


Those who appeared on Panarama last night weren't in luxury hotels
They have been relying on Charity donations whilst the guilty Royal Borough sits on £250 million.
userJohn52
Posted: 20 June 2017 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-20 8:36 AM
So it's quite acceptable to beat journalists up then and damage vehicles ???

Sounds like the stories they put about Hillsborough Victims. The inquiry will be harder this time. Its the Establishment investigating itself again, but this time the victims are all little people, and those responsible all rich and powerful - they don't need any help from you

antony1969 - 2017-06-20 8:36 AM
Londons welfare bill for the working age group in 2011/12 was 36 billion quid ... Not a bad little earner that guvnor .
- for the Landlords, yes.
userJohn52
Posted: 20 June 2017 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Good article in the Daily Mail for once? .... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066702/One-Hyde-Park-Only-9-62-Londons-exclusive-flats-pay-council-tax.html
userJohn52
Posted: 21 June 2017 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Seems the regulations regarding this cladding are far from clear. Hammonds claim it is illegal may be attempt to cover up the fact the Tory Government did not act on the warnings and make the regulations clear.
More concerned with cutting 'red tape' like safety regulations, ''elf & safety gone mad'etc.
Whatever, the buck passing has started already.
The whitewash will be a long and expensive job.
userStuartO
Posted: 21 June 2017 4:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already.  They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards.  It sounds almost too good to be true.


Edited by StuartO 2017-06-21 4:20 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 21 June 2017 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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And the bitter irony is council rates there are absolute peanuts in comparison to the property values. I pay the same amount of tax for a small 2 bed bungalow.
userBulletguy
Posted: 21 June 2017 5:59 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-21 4:19 PM

It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already. They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards. It sounds almost too good to be true.

Which generally means it is! But time will tell. IF true, then i imagine it will upset a few folk!!

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40357280

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-latest-victims-rehoused-2bn-kensington-luxury-apartment-block-68-flats-a7800856.html

May has called it "a failure of the State" and apologised. Government need to re-think about social housing. It was a huge mistake to sell them off.
userBulletguy
Posted: 21 June 2017 5:59 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Double posted.

Edited by Bulletguy 2017-06-21 6:01 PM
userantony1969
Posted: 21 June 2017 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Social housing ... If we didn't ship em in maybe we wouldn't need so much social housing and that horrendous cost to the London taxpayer in welfare could be reduced substantially

Edited by antony1969 2017-06-21 6:17 PM
userJohn52
Posted: 21 June 2017 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-21 4:19 PM

It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already.  They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards.  It sounds almost too good to be true.


As I recall section 106 planning permission requires 25% of the new flats to be social housing,
So I don't know whether these flats will come out of what they are already obliged to provide.
At last those survivors of the fire claiming JSA have at last been told they won't be sanctioned for failing to keep up their job searches and interviews. They were asking the jobcentre and couldn't get an answer. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/20/jobseekers-allowance-rules-suspended-for-grenfell-tower-tenants
userJohn52
Posted: 21 June 2017 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-21 6:14 PM

Social housing ... If we didn't ship em in maybe we wouldn't need so much social housing and that horrendous cost to the London taxpayer in welfare could be reduced substantially


I quite agree. Just spent £400m doing up Buckingham Palace for the German immigrants and did we get so much as a thank you
userBulletguy
Posted: 22 June 2017 6:55 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-21 6:14 PM

Social housing ...

Aka Council houses until Thatchers "right to buy" scheme.


If we didn't ship em in maybe we wouldn't need so much social housing and that horrendous cost to the London taxpayer in welfare could be reduced substantially.

"Ship" who in? We need EU/non-EU migrants to do the work lazy British won't do.You'd best start addressing the issue of why we have so many home grown bone idle sods who've never done a days work in their life and have no intention of either. Young single mothers breeding kids like rabbits so they can get priority listing for a house etc.


John52 - 2017-06-21 6:21 PM

StuartO - 2017-06-21 4:19 PM

It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already.  They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards.  It sounds almost too good to be true.


As I recall section 106 planning permission requires 25% of the new flats to be social housing,
So I don't know whether these flats will come out of what they are already obliged to provide.
At last those survivors of the fire claiming JSA have at last been told they won't be sanctioned for failing to keep up their job searches and interviews. They were asking the jobcentre and couldn't get an answer. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/20/jobseekers-allowance-rules-suspended-for-grenfell-tower-tenants.

Good God.



John52 - 2017-06-21 6:54 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-21 6:14 PM

Social housing ... If we didn't ship em in maybe we wouldn't need so much social housing and that horrendous cost to the London taxpayer in welfare could be reduced substantially


I quite agree. Just spent £400m doing up Buckingham Palace for the German immigrants and did we get so much as a thank you

userpelmetman
Posted: 22 June 2017 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-20 8:29 AM

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....


I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!


Looks like those residents who survived will be rehoused in rather sumptuous flats .......

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-latest-victims-rehoused-2bn-kensington-luxury-apartment-block-68-flats-a7800856.html

No doubt John52 and other Labour luvvy's will "still" find something to complain about .....

userBop
Posted: 22 June 2017 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.
userViolet1956
Posted: 22 June 2017 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2017-06-22 8:20 AM

StuartO - 2017-06-20 8:29 AM

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....


I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!


Looks like those residents who survived will be rehoused in rather sumptuous flats .......

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-latest-victims-rehoused-2bn-kensington-luxury-apartment-block-68-flats-a7800856.html

No doubt John52 and other Labour luvvy's will "still" find something to complain about .....



The headline is misleading Dave as has been pointed out already. If you read on it states “The homes will be in two affordable housing blocks at the site, and were purchased by the City of London Corporation in a deal brokered by the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA).”

“Affordable” doesn’t have a ring of “luxury” about it. We got rid of our Victorian workhouses a while ago so that’s not an option. You’re beginning to sound like a workhouse Beadle. However, I’ll forgive you if you can sing like Harry Secombe, you’re already as funny at times.


Veronica
userViolet1956
Posted: 22 June 2017 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bop - 2017-06-22 10:00 AM

I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.


This British Legion article is rather illuminating. Having read it I'm not persuaded that the problems faced by homeless veterans in London would be solved or even ameliorated to any significant extent just by giving them a place to live sadly.

http://media.britishlegion.org.uk/Media/2283/litrev_ukvetshomelessness.pdf

Veronica
userJohn52
Posted: 22 June 2017 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bop - 2017-06-22 10:00 AM

I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.


Ex military already have more help than others, and statistically are more likely to be violent.
Problem with social housing below market rents is deciding who gets one is as big a recipe for corruption as the planning system. Sub letting is illegal but rife. There is a possibility some tenants were not in the flats during the fire because they had sub let them at a profit to others who have perished
The fraudsters will now be in line for a luxury apartment at a peppercorn rent.
The elephant in the room and obvious answer to the housing crisis is to relax planning constraints so we can build enough homes and bring rents down for everybody - not just a subsidized few
Unfortunately the Establishment obviously doesn't really want to fix the housing crisis because they are making too much money out of it

Edit: Just seen Veronica has posted an informative study on ex- military homelessness, Thank You.

Edited by John52 2017-06-22 12:07 PM
userBop
Posted: 23 June 2017 8:39 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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There was a good article on the BBC Brekkie news today in which a fire safety expert highlighted the point about the industry fire regulations and how they had not changed for many years. He stated that there had been a number of major reviews conducted (and submitted to the government) in 2000, 2003, 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2013 and yet there has been no distinguishable changes made by any government.

Interestingly though the report which was written in 2009 highlighted a number of grave failings with regard to how buildings were constructed and what fire retardant materials should be utilised following a fairly serious fire at a multi-level building in the south. The government at the time was consulted and yet still no changes were introduced; all water under the bridge.

Im just wondering why the Conservative Party didn't implement the necessary changes at the point when the first four reports were submitted by the experts? Ah, let me think about that one!
userBop
Posted: 23 June 2017 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Violet1956 - 2017-06-22 11:22 AM

Bop - 2017-06-22 10:00 AM

I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.


This British Legion article is rather illuminating. Having read it I'm not persuaded that the problems faced by homeless veterans in London would be solved or even ameliorated to any significant extent just by giving them a place to live sadly.

http://media.britishlegion.org.uk/Media/2283/litrev_ukvetshomelessness.pdf

Veronica


Veronica,

I appreciate the post-up but that review was published 7-years ago and it was taken from surveys done in 2008 from what I gather.

The British involvement in Iraq didn't officially cease until mid-2010 while Afghansitan plodded on for years after - and is still going.

The point I make is that it doesn't reflect any true state of the veteran community but I'll certainly print off a few copies and use them to get the fire started when I next go camping with my son.

Cheers,

Andrew



Edited by Bop 2017-06-23 8:47 AM
userViolet1956
Posted: 23 June 2017 9:19 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bop - 2017-06-23 8:46 AM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-22 11:22 AM

Bop - 2017-06-22 10:00 AM

I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.


This British Legion article is rather illuminating. Having read it I'm not persuaded that the problems faced by homeless veterans in London would be solved or even ameliorated to any significant extent just by giving them a place to live sadly.

http://media.britishlegion.org.uk/Media/2283/litrev_ukvetshomelessness.pdf

Veronica


Veronica,

I appreciate the post-up but that review was published 7-years ago and it was taken from surveys done in 2008 from what I gather.

The British involvement in Iraq didn't officially cease until mid-2010 while Afghansitan plodded on for years after - and is still going.

The point I make is that it doesn't reflect any true state of the veteran community but I'll certainly print off a few copies and use them to get the fire started when I next go camping with my son.

Cheers,

Andrew

I hadn't noticed quite how old it was Andrew so I accept in terms of figures it is not a true reflection of the current numbers of veterans who are homeless but won't the complex problems that they face remain the same? That was the point I was trying to make but not very well perhaps.

Veronica
userJohn52
Posted: 24 June 2017 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


Can't find the article I read earlier that said it started under Thatcher. This one says he was informed of self-certification (shifting the safety inspection from the Firremen to the Landlord) in 2007;
https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2017/jun/17/architects-grenfell-tower-fire-was-an-avoidable-tragedy
I found it worth reading in any case.
userBulletguy
Posted: 13 September 2017 10:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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An interview shown on Channel 4 news this evening with the only two people who made it out alive from the 23rd floor of Grenfell. It's extremely distressing viewing.

https://www.channel4.com/news/grenfell-the-only-survivors-from-the-top-floor-tell-their-story
userLarryDavid
Posted: 14 September 2017 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Community spirit of the area after this terrible tragedy has been phenomenal. Went to #Game4Grenfell the other day and it was amazing to see a great show for those in the community including those brave firefighters.

Hope this investigation actually gets somewhere and justice is served.
userBulletguy
Posted: 14 September 2017 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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LarryDavid - 2017-09-14 12:58 PM

Community spirit of the area after this terrible tragedy has been phenomenal. Went to #Game4Grenfell the other day and it was amazing to see a great show for those in the community including those brave firefighters.

Hope this investigation actually gets somewhere and justice is served.

Couldn't agree more though i suspect it will be a total whitewash.

Former executive of KCTMO Robert Black resigned from his job three months ago, yet is still being paid a six figure salary as he is ‘concentrating on assisting with the investigation and inquiry’. If that isn't rubbing salt in the wounds then i don't know what is.

He isn't the only one by any means though but i very much doubt we will be seeing any held to account and sent to prison.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/13/grenfell-tower-executive-still-on-full-pay-despite-resignation-6926145/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/13/grenfell-tower-executive-robert-black-still-on-full-pay-despite-resignation
userantony1969
Posted: 14 September 2017 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-09-14 2:34 PM

LarryDavid - 2017-09-14 12:58 PM

Community spirit of the area after this terrible tragedy has been phenomenal. Went to #Game4Grenfell the other day and it was amazing to see a great show for those in the community including those brave firefighters.

Hope this investigation actually gets somewhere and justice is served.

Couldn't agree more though i suspect it will be a total whitewash.

Former executive of KCTMO Robert Black resigned from his job three months ago, yet is still being paid a six figure salary as he is ‘concentrating on assisting with the investigation and inquiry’. If that isn't rubbing salt in the wounds then i don't know what is.

He isn't the only one by any means though but i very much doubt we will be seeing any held to account and sent to prison.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/13/grenfell-tower-executive-still-on-full-pay-despite-resignation-6926145/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/13/grenfell-tower-executive-robert-black-still-on-full-pay-despite-resignation


Why dont you for once just wait until the enquiry has finished rather than rubbishing it on the opening day ... Wild comments regarding future court cases or the lack of help no one ... Just wait
userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 6:23 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-may-be-lower-than-first-feared-police-say-11043094 ... Fraud , thefts ... Who'd have thought it possible ... The community that stands together were robbing off each other as the fire was going and others have since attempted to benefit from the tragedy ... Wheres the fella who packed his wife and kids off , packed his bags and his fridge exploded ??? ... Nice people
userViolet1956
Posted: 20 September 2017 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-09-20 6:23 AM

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-may-be-lower-than-first-feared-police-say-11043094 ... Fraud , thefts ... Who'd have thought it possible ... The community that stands together were robbing off each other as the fire was going and others have since attempted to benefit from the tragedy ... Wheres the fella who packed his wife and kids off , packed his bags and his fridge exploded ??? ... Nice people


The statement in the article from which you draw your conclusions appears to be “Detectives are also looking into eight cases of fraud involving people who claimed money following the disaster and four possible thefts from flats on the lower levels of the tower block”.

Where in that statement is it indicated that those being investigated form part of “the community” and how does it stack up that they are in some way representative of the morals of the entire community?

12 people would equate to just under 3.5% of the residents of the tower itself (350 people having said to be living in it at the time) so if your sleight aimed at “the community” is meant to include those living in the surrounding area it appears even less justified based on the facts we have been given so far. I also don’t see that the offences being investigated mentioned as fraud or thefts were said to have occurred whilst the fire was going on as you appear to have assumed.

Of those presently investigated and now facing charges of fraud are this man, who lived in Beckenham

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fraud-suspect-anh-nhu-nguyen-denies-charges-at-crown-court-hearing-10965107

and this woman from Sutton

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41161123

So far, I can find only one man convicted of anything who lived near the tower and that was for publishing a photograph of a corpse

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/i-didnt-do-anything-wrong-man-who-posted-picture-of-dead-grenfell-victim-on-facebook-shocked-at-a3637851.html

I suggest that you ought to follow your own advice Antony and just wait until these investigations are complete before drawing any conclusions.

Veronica


userpepe63
Posted: 20 September 2017 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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For heaven's sake Veronica, why on earth did you even respond to such a post...?

It was clearly just another of his 6-6.30am Bile-bulletins, posted with the intention of goading others(usually Bulleyguy) into a response, in the hope it'd help fill his day...

They waste enough of their own time, don't let the forum's bitter, resentful time-sponges waste too much of yours...

userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 12:31 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-09-20 11:08 AM

antony1969 - 2017-09-20 6:23 AM

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-may-be-lower-than-first-feared-police-say-11043094 ... Fraud , thefts ... Who'd have thought it possible ... The community that stands together were robbing off each other as the fire was going and others have since attempted to benefit from the tragedy ... Wheres the fella who packed his wife and kids off , packed his bags and his fridge exploded ??? ... Nice people


The statement in the article from which you draw your conclusions appears to be “Detectives are also looking into eight cases of fraud involving people who claimed money following the disaster and four possible thefts from flats on the lower levels of the tower block”.

Where in that statement is it indicated that those being investigated form part of “the community” and how does it stack up that they are in some way representative of the morals of the entire community?

12 people would equate to just under 3.5% of the residents of the tower itself (350 people having said to be living in it at the time) so if your sleight aimed at “the community” is meant to include those living in the surrounding area it appears even less justified based on the facts we have been given so far. I also don’t see that the offences being investigated mentioned as fraud or thefts were said to have occurred whilst the fire was going on as you appear to have assumed.

Of those presently investigated and now facing charges of fraud are this man, who lived in Beckenham

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fraud-suspect-anh-nhu-nguyen-denies-charges-at-crown-court-hearing-10965107

and this woman from Sutton

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41161123

So far, I can find only one man convicted of anything who lived near the tower and that was for publishing a photograph of a corpse

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/i-didnt-do-anything-wrong-man-who-posted-picture-of-dead-grenfell-victim-on-facebook-shocked-at-a3637851.html

I suggest that you ought to follow your own advice Antony and just wait until these investigations are complete before drawing any conclusions.

Veronica




I don't think folk would be running into the building past the police and fire crews to rob do you Veronica so I think it's fair to assume the thefts were carried out by others in the building , in effect like I said by folk from the community

userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 12:42 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pepe63 - 2017-09-20 12:29 PM

For heaven's sake Veronica, why on earth did you even respond to such a post...?

It was clearly just another of his 6-6.30am Bile-bulletins, posted with the intention of goading others(usually Bulleyguy) into a response, in the hope it'd help fill his day...

They waste enough of their own time, don't let the forum's bitter, resentful time-sponges waste too much of yours...



Strange that you choose to publicly have a go at Veronica regarding my post which you obviously find upsetting "for heaven's sake" ... May I suggest next time PM your target with your drama queen rollicking if you don't want the thread to continue ... By the way it looks like I've posted 700 or so more posts than you over the seven years we've both been on here ... Do the maths as to how many that works out more than you per day over that time ? ... If I spend too much time on here then someone else does too

Edited by antony1969 2017-09-20 12:47 PM
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