ROON Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Has anyone seen tonight's news about this .... and find it as scarey as I do? Waiting to see how long before the Pope speaks out ....... or DOES'nT as the case will be.... the world has definitely gone loopy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted July 12, 2008 Author Share Posted July 12, 2008 :-( Does no-one have an opinion on this, or am I just oversensitive when I watch the news? *-) It really bothered me. Has anyone who has been travelling through Italy recently seen any evidence of this ethnic cleansing? Should add that I am not against solving the problem of immigration, but what scared me is the mob rule that was shown firebombing where old people and babies were living.... and no-one seemed bothering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philman Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Hi, could you post a link to the article you are concerned about and then we would know what is worrying you? Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4272616.ece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philman Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Thanks JM,is this history repeating itself I wonder? Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohgrandma Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Many thanks for the link J M, Now I fully understand Joy,s concerns, I found it quite upsetting reading. too. Ria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 People have simply had enough of the illegal element of imigration. These people blatently abuse the hospitality of the host country and bring with them a large number of their criminal elements whose criminal acts are new to us and catching the authorities and ourselves unprepared. Thier attitude to society, ie their social responsibilities, are so different to ours that integration is bound to be difficult and that is one of the reasons why incoming numbers should be limmited so that the communities are allowed to digest them a few at a time and not be overwhelmed by them. What is better, what we and the Italians have now, madness, or a controlled influx where our service providers can provide for the influx properly instead of trying to catch up all of the time and the communities having time to accept the newcomers. If I remember correctly this all started earlier this year with, either one or a few murders, in particular the murder of a very highly respected lady in a smallish Italian town. I have placed below three comments that I think say a lot As an Italian citizen, I am obliged to carry ID at all times, and that's fine, but if I try to put a stop to the use of children as criminal labour by gypsies by identifying them (and in turn the adults who send them to steal and rob) then I am a racist? Is this a provocation or just idiocy? Pietro B, SP, Italy Writing from the comfort of your armchair and possibly copying a few news reported by someone thinking that everything is fine and that gypsies are no problem where the stay (just because of ideological positions, absolutely far from reality) is very, very easy. Thins are "a little bit" different! Giorgio Elleri, Milan, Italy The Italian response to Gypsy immigration is regrettable but understandable. EU electorates have voiced concern about immigration & unwelcome changes it has made to their communities. Politicians ignored them & this is the result. The UK is generally tolerant but the BNP are steadily gaining ground. Donna Walker, Effingham, England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 Syd, we are on the same side. I totally agree with your comments and stated about immigration in one of my posts..... I have always said in the past that if something isn't done in THIS country then God only knows what we, as civilised people (could be debatable I guess at times with all of us), will eventually be pushed to. What bothers me is the fact that this has now started to happen in Italy and in the way in which it is being dealt with. A lot of what the Rhoma have been accused of is often preceded with the word 'alledged' and it worries me when the media start that kind of hype.... I was upset at a tv report which showed a little girl and an old lady who appeared to have been the victims of a fire 'bomb' in these camps and the way in which the public driving past were putting thumbs up at the cameras and appeared totally inhumane. This was how ethnic cleansing started in Wrld war 2... we have all seen the footage of Jews marched naked through the streets and the totally unflinching attitude of those who stood and watched and sneered. The footage SCARED me.... yes, I can understand how it has got to this stage and let us hope to God, since we feel we can interfere in wars in other countries, and their problems, that our own Government takes note and learns that it too must act before we become so incensed, desperate or whatever the word may be to describe what could happen here - with lack of food, jobs, housing, pensions, NHS money - that we start to follow suit. My vocabulary and intelligence are not brilliant so please don't jump on me if I have used the incorrect word at all in the above .... but I don't want to become immune to others' suffering as my own 'spirit' will then suffer and I will be a lesser person .... and it shows that all things are possible when people are pushed and nothing is done.... we all have the protective gene in our body don't we which can explode. Someone needs to speak up in Italy who has real clout and say THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM ... mob rule is NOT the answer to it. Regards, Joy (sorry for going on Syd *-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Hi Roon Certainly not going to jump up and down on this matter. Fire bombing apart I believe that this is the way to go. This particular section of immigrant are very mobile and do not tend to settle down as we do hence very difficult to keep track of or trace So, Yes, I believe the authorities should make sure that the children are taken off the streets and that they can trace them where ever they move to. Yes they should be able to hold their parents responsible for the childrens activities and be able to trace them too. After all that is what we are subjected to isn't it. We carry ID, we more or less abide by the laws of the land or we are held to account but these immigrants seem to be getting away with breaking every law/rule that applies to the residents of the host country and the residents quiet rightly are asking that this situation is brought to an end. They should be documented/registered so that they are traceable in the same way that we are documented, and held responsible for their misdemeaners too where ever they move to. Behind this is distasteful episode is the total lack of the basic controls over these people that we ourselves are subjected to and which are rigorously applied against us but waived/overlooked against them. It may not be the full answer but it is a start, maybe a too late start, but a start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 Hi Syd, Shall we just agree to differ then on our attitude towards HOW it shuld be dealt with.... :-S since I agree with all the parts you have brought up, and all for those actions which are LONG overdue, but I STILL and I hope NEVER WILL agree with how decent everyday citizens can advocate what I saw on the newsreel. I could divert onto our namby pamby ways of dealing with terrorists compared to hoarding the said 'gypsies' into camps without food or water and the argument goes on, so maybe just hope the thread closes now and sort of watch this space on the news.... Joy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 How right you are SYd. I don't find it scarey at all and wish it would happen here, these people think they are above the law and the authorities are powerless to deal with them. Its strange that when surveys are carried out anonymously the vast majority of people agree. So much for freedom of speech the 'liberals' in our society only want freedom and freedom of speech as long as you agree with them. The latest poll, for instance on youths and youth crime showed the majority of people would like to see a curfew on under 16's after 2100 at night, that has upset the mamby pamby do gooders! Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Hi Roon I don't agree to disagree with you on anything really because I know that what I am advocating is not a complete answer and I only support the registration bit and nothing else as yet. Something has got to be done and done soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Having recently encountered two Roma camps in Slovakia, the first thing I would say is, if you haven't actually seen what the article refers to, be prepared to be really taken aback when you do! We saw conditions we thought had left Europe in the middle ages, camps that looked infinitely worse than the Rio fevellas. To say third world is unfair to the third world. The impression is threatening, and at the same time shocking. Local sensitivities will become inflamed by a lethargic response by the authorities, and the authorities will be lethargic because the Roma are a European tribe and European governments have pledged to treat them with respect and not persecute them. All well and good: but underlying the scare stories there is an enormous problem. The Roma, apart from Bulgaria and Roumania, as the Times says, are also in Slovenia, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic and, I believe, also through most of the Balkans. Most of those states have reviled them, including under communism, and few have any real education. They are widely distrusted, and are shunned by most non-Roma they encounter. They are migrant up to a point, more itinerant that gypsy, and have never learned to live in houses. They just follow the money. They have no true country, do not respect property laws, mainly because they own no property, but also because they have little idea of ownership. They are naturally anarchic, take whatever they can find, regarding everything as "up for grabs", and the idea of possessing things is alien to their culture. The Dutch neighbour of a Roma family settled in Hungary (by a relatively impoverished parish council, as they were legally obliged to do), described how the council now had to re-house them because, when they had run short of money, they had sold off everything in the house piece by piece. Doors, windows, bath, basin, sink, the lot! The Roma family did not ask to be re-housed, they accepted what was left as their home, but the council condemned the building as unfit for habitation, so had to find another, plus the money to refurbish the first.It is thought they came into Europe from the East, probably India, hundreds of years ago, and they have been kicked from pillar to post ever since because they are a bit dark skinned and just don't fit in with the values of settled, property owning, Europeans. However, they exist, they breed, they are all over Eastern, and increasingly Western, Europe, there are hundreds of thousands of them, and they are a huge challenge for our "civilised" governments to deal with. Dealing with the Roma, unless you subscribe to the values of the Third Reich, is going to be one of the biggest bits of collective social engineering ever undertaken. However, in my opinion, it will have to be done. They will have to be educated, settled, and taught social and democratic values. If not, we shall be treated to the spectacle of "Roma bashing" on an increasingly widespread basis, or enforced Roma camps - "for their own protection" of course. Not a very comforting thought, that, for a nice civilised country, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 Wow.... Brian. After reading that very informative piece I am even more worried!!!! It looks like there is no solution that can solve this problem without some horrendous circumstance one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Brian Kirby - 2008-07-13 5:48 PM Most of those states have reviled them, including under communism, and few have any real education. They are widely distrusted, and are shunned by most non-Roma they encounter. They are migrant up to a point, more itinerant that gypsy, and have never learned to live in houses. They just follow the money. They have no true country, do not respect property laws, mainly because they own no property, but also because they have little idea of ownership. They are naturally anarchic, take whatever they can find, regarding everything as "up for grabs", and the idea of possessing things is alien to their culture. It is thought they came into Europe from the East, probably India, hundreds of years ago, and they have been kicked from pillar to post ever since because they are a bit dark skinned and just don't fit in with the values of settled, property owning, Europeans. However, they exist, they breed, they are all over Eastern, and increasingly Western, Europe, there are hundreds of thousands of them, and they are a huge challenge for our "civilised" governments to deal with. They will have to be educated, settled, and taught social and democratic values. If not, we shall be treated to the spectacle of "Roma bashing" on an increasingly widespread basis, or enforced Roma camps - "for their own protection" of course. Not a very comforting thought, that, for a nice civilised country, is it? Hi Brian Of course you are right BUT In the first paragraph of my selection from your quoted post you accurately describe the very great materalistic differences between our and their culture, as you say just how this is to be delt with I do not know but I will bet that it will involve in them being brain washed/forced/hounded into our way of thinking/doing things so that they loose their individuality. They will no longer be a seperate people. One size fits all and that isn't very attractive either. In our materalistic world how do you cope with a people who believe that everything is out there for their taking, and because this has always been their way of life, for all of their life, and hence they are doing no wrong in their own eyes, how do you start to get them to see that this is not acceptable behaviour in their host country and will not be tollerated and if you succeed in this what are they going to do to earn a crust Paragraph two is simply advocating more of the same from paragraph one " it will involve in them being brain washed/forced/hounded into our way of thinking/doing things so that they loose their individuality. They will no longer be a seperate people". I have to ask, is there now no place in our society for people who live in this manner, people who are different from what we would like them to be Have we progressed to a stage where people who are a living reminder of what it must have been like to have lived in the distant past, can no longer be tollerated. I think that registration and documentation of all people is what our society is founded and thrives on so making them all be registered and documented somewhere is at least a start. My guess is that these people are going to be hounded out of Italy and will most probably end up in a house next door to us all where they will be welcomed with open arms, I don't think. NIMBY springs to mind A real test that is for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parkmoy Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Correct, there cannot be a place for people who ignore the laws and mores of that society. Have we progressed to a stage where people who are a living reminder of what it must have been like to have lived in the distant past, can no longer be tollerated. Yes we have. Should we tolerate women being hit over the head with a club and dragged back to the cave? The past is the past and people who live in modern society must obey the laws of that society. Perhaps a different matter if they were a tribe living in isolation in the deepest Amazon where they obeyed their own laws and didn't impact on anyone else. I totally understand Roon's concerns and we must all be vigilant to ensure that past excesses and pogroms are not repeated. It is easy, as she suggests, to become brutalised and hardened to the suffering of fellow humans. Nevertheless, unless action is taken to try and resolve the problem, that is what will happen. Identifying and tracking the Roma is the first step. We all have a natural dislike of being 'listed' by authority and harbor suspicion of the motives but if it is done for the right reasons with proper safeguards it can be beneficial to society as a whole. It must be followed by education and social integration. How this can be achieved I leave to greater minds than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Brian Kirby - 2008-07-13 5:48 PMDealing with the Roma, unless you subscribe to the values of the Third Reich, Interesting comment here and whilst yes it was their values it is also much misunderstood.It is strange how people either don't realise or choose to ignore the fact that the, as Brian puts it 'the values of the Third Reich' i.e. based on Eugenics, were also the values held for some fifty years before the Third Reich by as prominent of people as Winston Churchill, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson as well as Alwxander Graham Bell (inventor) Leland Stanford (the founder of Stanford University), H G Wells, George Bernard Shaw and hundreds more including Nobel prize winners, also many institutions who backed research programmes such as Carnegie and Rockerfeller Institutions, Harvard,Yale, Princton and Stanford Universities to name but a few.At the time those who opposed were shouted down, called reactionary, blind to reality or just plain ignorant.After World War II suddenly no one was a eugenicist, and nobody had ever been a eugenicist. Biographers of the celebrated and powerful did not dwell on the attractions of this philosophy to their subjects and in some cases did not mention it at all.So all I am saying is to say it is only 'the values of the Third Reich' is misleading it is endemic in society all over.Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Basil - 2008-07-14 10:06 AMBrian Kirby - 2008-07-13 5:48 PMDealing with the Roma, unless you subscribe to the values of the Third Reich, Interesting comment here and whilst yes it was their values it is also much misunderstood.It is strange how people either don't realise or choose to ignore the fact that the, as Brian puts it 'the values of the Third Reich' i.e. based on Eugenics, were also the values held for some fifty years before the Third Reich by as prominent of people as Winston Churchill, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson as well as Alwxander Graham Bell (inventor) Leland Stanford (the founder of Stanford University), H G Wells, George Bernard Shaw and hundreds more including Nobel prize winners, also many institutions who backed research programmes such as Carnegie and Rockerfeller Institutions, Harvard,Yale, Princton and Stanford Universities to name but a few.At the time those who opposed were shouted down, called reactionary, blind to reality or just plain ignorant.After World War II suddenly no one was a eugenicist, and nobody had ever been a eugenicist. Biographers of the celebrated and powerful did not dwell on the attractions of this philosophy to their subjects and in some cases did not mention it at all.So all I am saying is to say it is only 'the values of the Third Reich' is misleading it is endemic in society all over.BasHi BasilYes you may well be right regarding the so called thinking classes ideolgy but when it comes down to the general public becoming embroiled in, shall we call it "Ethnic Cleansing", I believe there has to be a trigger, something happens to set the public off on this course of action. In this case I believe the trigger was the brutal murder of a highly respected lady, preceded by the general lawlessness of the illegal immigrantsI would have thought that the general public are normally too law abiding and too engrossed in earning their crusts to be thinking that "Well today I will go out and kill a couple of illegal immigrants". or "Burn their camps out"What I think I am trying to say is that the general public do not do this sort of thing as a norm, only when greatly provoked, as against the Nazi type of political program when they were led like blind sheep into doing the "Patriotic" thing by their government.I think that no matter what you do to try to help these people to change their ways these people are not going to change their ways because that is the way they have lived their lives for hundreds of years and they see no wrong in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 that last sentence is what worries me most, not talking of Romas or gypsies now, but of society and the way that mankind is evolving.... we arn't just losing little toes as part of our evolution we are losing our consciences and the 'strong' out there don't have consciences any more. Sorry for deviating from thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Hi Syd, Yes I quite agree, that was my point as well and why I made reference to the 'Third Reich' comment. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 ROON - 2008-07-14 12:38 PM that last sentence is what worries me most, not talking of Romas or gypsies now, but of society and the way that mankind is evolving.... we arn't just losing little toes as part of our evolution we are losing our consciences and the 'strong' out there don't have consciences any more. Sorry for deviating from thread. This is your thread to deviate from if you wish ROON so you don't need to apologise to anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 ROON - 2008-07-14 12:38 PM that last sentence is what worries me most, not talking of Romas or gypsies now, but of society and the way that mankind is evolving.... we arn't just losing little toes as part of our evolution we are losing our consciences and the 'strong' out there don't have consciences any more. Sorry for deviating from thread. I don't believe you are deviating Roon it is all interlinked and in my view caused by a complete lack of principled leadership and also the leadership listening to minority 'pressure groups' and enforcing their views on the majority whether it is right or wrong. Mostly the majority will take the easy option and let it slide by, particularly while it doesn't directly affect them but eventually the majority will kick back and that may not be in terms of an election it may be in the terms that Syd is referring to and is happening in Italy. Whichever way you look at it they will probably end up here and we will have to suffer the consequencies as those 'liberals' in our society allow them to do as they do so as not to offend 'their human rights' never mind about everyone elses human rights. Personally that is my main objection to the EU and the open border policy, if that makes me 'racist' (which I actually don't believe I am) then so be it. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Basil - 2008-07-14 10:06 AM Brian Kirby - 2008-07-13 5:48 PM Dealing with the Roma, unless you subscribe to the values of the Third Reich, Interesting comment here and whilst yes it was their values it is also much misunderstood. It is strange how people either don't realise or choose to ignore the fact that the, as Brian puts it 'the values of the Third Reich' i.e. based on Eugenics, were also the values held for some fifty years before the Third Reich by as prominent of people as Winston Churchill, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson as well as Alwxander Graham Bell (inventor) Leland Stanford (the founder of Stanford University), H G Wells, George Bernard Shaw and hundreds more including Nobel prize winners, also many institutions who backed research programmes such as Carnegie and Rockerfeller Institutions, Harvard,Yale, Princton and Stanford Universities to name but a few. At the time those who opposed were shouted down, called reactionary, blind to reality or just plain ignorant. After World War II suddenly no one was a eugenicist, and nobody had ever been a eugenicist. Biographers of the celebrated and powerful did not dwell on the attractions of this philosophy to their subjects and in some cases did not mention it at all. So all I am saying is to say it is only 'the values of the Third Reich' is misleading it is endemic in society all over. Bas Nah, bas, it was the gas chambers I had in mind, not the eugenics! Don't forget tens of thousands of gypsies were gassed, as well as their more frequently remembered fellow victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Syd - 2008-07-14 12:45 PM ROON - 2008-07-14 12:38 PM that last sentence is what worries me most, not talking of Romas or gypsies now, but of society and the way that mankind is evolving.... we arn't just losing little toes as part of our evolution we are losing our consciences and the 'strong' out there don't have consciences any more. Sorry for deviating from thread. This is your thread to deviate from if you wish ROON so you don't need to apologise to anyone For what it's worth, I think the elephant in the room is population growth. There are more and more of us, but the planet remains the same size. With smaller populations, one group's cultural habits didn't cause as much social friction, because it affected fewer people. The Gypsies and itinerants could just wander as they chose. They'd get chased away from here or there, but they could move off into relatively empty space. The empty spaces are now full of housing estates, or mechanised agriculture, and the spaces the nomads used to occupy have all gone. That pushes them closer to us and we don't like it. They rattle us and unsettle us. Sometimes the result is open conflict, with the nomads usually the ultimate losers. However, because they exist, and because (I think) most of us won't accept them and their ways, they will ultimately be cajoled, persuaded, or bludgeoned, into accepting a role in our property owning democracies. How will that go? Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Hi Brian I bet you they will end up here, dyou know why, cos they are of the same breed/culture as most of our politicions. They should get on well together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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