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Interesting article
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userBrian Kirby
Posted: 6 December 2018 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-05 4:53 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-05 4:50 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-05 3:49 PM...…………….The only folk who should hang their heads in shame...........are your anti democratic Remoaners .......

Anti-democratic? How?


Your preventing what the 52% voted for from happening ..........and replacing democracy with hypocrisy ..........

Are we (to both)? How (to both)?
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 December 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-06 7:04 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-05 4:53 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-05 4:50 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-05 3:49 PM...…………….The only folk who should hang their heads in shame...........are your anti democratic Remoaners .......

Anti-democratic? How?


Your preventing what the 52% voted for from happening ..........and replacing democracy with hypocrisy ..........

Are we (to both)? How (to both)?


You are trying to prevent Brexit? ..........Which is the answer (to both) ........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 December 2018 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-07 9:12 AM.....................….
You are trying to prevent Brexit? ..........Which is the answer (to both) ........

I am arguing that Brexit is a bad and wholly unnecessary idea that will, on the best information available, damage the UK economy and so reduce the standard of living of the entire population of the UK. I think that is important, and extremely undesirable, which is why I maintain the argument.

I do not seek to prevent anything, but to persuade anyone willing to listen that remaining in the EU is the economically superior course.

If this argument results in people changing their minds of their own free wills, which I hope it will, resulting in either a further referendum, or if MPs take control and scrap Brexit because it cannot be achieved without economic damage - which they should do - then the matter will have been resolved entirely democratically.

As I keep trying to explain to you (which you keep ignoring) democracy did not end with that one referendum, it is an ongoing process and, with direct democracy, the process is fluid and the outcomes must change as public opinion changes. That is why it is, ultimately, a bad (unworkable?) version of democracy. It is unstable.

To be a hypocrite one has to act contrary to one's stated principles. I have never favoured Brexit, or referendums, and have repeatedly stated that I think both are bad ideas. So, there is no question of hypocrisy.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 December 2018 7:54 AM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-07 7:04 PM

As I keep trying to explain to you (which you keep ignoring) democracy did not end with that one referendum, it is an ongoing process and, with direct democracy, the process is fluid and the outcomes must change as public opinion changes. That is why it is, ultimately, a bad (unworkable?) version of democracy. It is unstable.



So after every election you demand another election? ...........

Nice try Brian..... but no straight Banana ........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 December 2018 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-08 7:54 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-07 7:04 PM

As I keep trying to explain to you (which you keep ignoring) democracy did not end with that one referendum, it is an ongoing process and, with direct democracy, the process is fluid and the outcomes must change as public opinion changes. That is why it is, ultimately, a bad (unworkable?) version of democracy. It is unstable.



So after every election you demand another election? ...........

Nice try Brian..... but no straight Banana ........

Because, dear Dave, a parliamentary election is not an exercise in direct democracy, it is an exercise in representative democracy, which is central to how the UK is governed. Until the coalition government, elections could be called at more or less any time, but that was changed to every five years. We keep pointing these things out, but you give the impression of being unable to understand the differences.

And yet, those differences go to the heart of the way in which the UK is governed, which underlies all the "getting my country back" emotionality on which Brexit was founded. You seem also not to have noticed that parliamentary elections can be reversed five years later if people don't line the result, whereas Brexit is a one shot option. So no, I don't demand another election immediately after every other election, because that other election is a) possible and b) provided for.

You're driving me to the conclusion, regretfully, that you have no idea how your own country is, actually, run, or even of the difference between referendums (direct democracy) and parliamentary elections (representative democracy).
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 December 2018 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-08 7:54 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-07 7:04 PM

As I keep trying to explain to you (which you keep ignoring) democracy did not end with that one referendum, it is an ongoing process and, with direct democracy, the process is fluid and the outcomes must change as public opinion changes. That is why it is, ultimately, a bad (unworkable?) version of democracy. It is unstable.



So after every election you demand another election? ...........

Nice try Brian..... but no straight Banana ........



An election is not an advisory poll. Its finite and binding and acted on immediately. The Referendum was and advisory non binding poll to assess the mood of the country. What then followed was two and a half years of debate and action to try and progress the publics "suggestion" to leave the EU and to try and establish the best cause of action to enable that. What should happen is once a route (if any) or proposal for such an exit is established along with all the facts and figures is it should be given back to the public to either approve or reject. Really though if Parliament decide it is not a sensible route it could and maybe should be revoked without any further public consultation.

Edited by Barryd999 2018-12-08 9:45 AM
userJohn52
Posted: 8 December 2018 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Barryd999 - 2018-12-08 9:44 AM
if Parliament decide it is not a sensible route it could and maybe should be revoked without any further public consultation.

Yes but that would take us back to square one with the Tory party fighting amongst itself.
The reason Cameron called the referendum in the first place - to help the Tory party, not the Country.
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 December 2018 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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John52 - 2018-12-08 10:44 AM

Barryd999 - 2018-12-08 9:44 AM
if Parliament decide it is not a sensible route it could and maybe should be revoked without any further public consultation.

Yes but that would take us back to square one with the Tory party fighting amongst itself.
The reason Cameron called the referendum in the first place - to help the Tory party, not the Country.


I think they are fooked now whatever they do. If you ask me its time all three of the main parties were just binned and started again. They are all seriously flawed and for me I cant side with any of them. (perhaps its just me). There are good and bad in them all. What a pity Brexit couldnt have been a cross party effort then it wouldnt be so hard to bin it once we knew what a complete disaster it was.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 December 2018 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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John52 - 2018-12-08 10:44 AM

Barryd999 - 2018-12-08 9:44 AM
if Parliament decide it is not a sensible route it could and maybe should be revoked without any further public consultation.

Yes but that would take us back to square one with the Tory party fighting amongst itself.
The reason Cameron called the referendum in the first place - to help the Tory party, not the Country.

While that is true John, it is equally true for Labour. I don't quite see how we would be back to square 1, since we have had the referendum, so already we know what people actually thought at that time. Both parties, IMO, are split on EU membership (though for different reasons and to different degrees), and I don't see that changing.

Brexit is not a party issue. The whole idea of the EU transcends left/right boundaries and speaks to basic concepts of trust, vision, co-operation, compromise, openness, and inclusiveness. These are character traits, not political concepts, but they are the traits that politics seeks to, variously, restrict or encourage to foster a more coherent society.

The real difference between us and the mainlanders is, IMO, our vision of the rest of the world as being "out there", and so different to us, rather than being next door to, and so like us. I think this is the acquired psychology of islanders, for whom that band of sea, even today, presents us with an actual physical barrier, whereas the mainlanders are presented with no more than a line on a map that separates them from their neighbour.

So no, I don't see "Brexit peace" breaking out in the near term, because about half of us can see beyond the band of sea, and the rest can't. It will change, but only slowly, as a younger, more outward looking generation begins to take over political control from the older generation who still see the band of sea as our protection.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 December 2018 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-08 9:39 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-08 7:54 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-07 7:04 PM

As I keep trying to explain to you (which you keep ignoring) democracy did not end with that one referendum, it is an ongoing process and, with direct democracy, the process is fluid and the outcomes must change as public opinion changes. That is why it is, ultimately, a bad (unworkable?) version of democracy. It is unstable.



So after every election you demand another election? ...........

Nice try Brian..... but no straight Banana ........

Because, dear Dave, a parliamentary election is not an exercise in direct democracy, it is an exercise in representative democracy, which is central to how the UK is governed. Until the coalition government, elections could be called at more or less any time, but that was changed to every five years. We keep pointing these things out, but you give the impression of being unable to understand the differences.

And yet, those differences go to the heart of the way in which the UK is governed, which underlies all the "getting my country back" emotionality on which Brexit was founded. You seem also not to have noticed that parliamentary elections can be reversed five years later if people don't line the result, whereas Brexit is a one shot option. So no, I don't demand another election immediately after every other election, because that other election is a) possible and b) provided for.

You're driving me to the conclusion, regretfully, that you have no idea how your own country is, actually, run, or even of the difference between referendums (direct democracy) and parliamentary elections (representative democracy).


Well, dear Brian ...........See if you find the word "advisory" in this link ........

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-21148282

"It is time for the British people to have their say," he said. "It is time to settle this European question in British politics. I say to the British people: this will be your decision."

Which bit of that are you failing to grasp? ..........

We had our say.........You Remoaners are just a sore loser ........



userpelmetman
Posted: 8 December 2018 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-08 12:15 PM

So no, I don't see "Brexit peace" breaking out in the near term, because about half of us can see beyond the band of sea, and the rest can't. It will change, but only slowly, as a younger, more outward looking generation begins to take over political control from the older generation who still see the band of sea as our protection.


You forget that younger generation will also grow jaded by the iniquities of our EU membership, as they struggle to compete for work from EU folk who will works for low pay, and they'll also realise that's why their pay is so low ..........

As has become evident by recent wage inflation due to the cheap labour taps being turned off ........

userBarryd999
Posted: 8 December 2018 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Disagree!

If we dont leave and Britain prospers most of the older Brexiteers who hanker after some fantasy of sunny days from yesteryear will clock off and the young will embrace our place in Europe. I dare say if we do remain things will change in the EU and hopefully we will stop being the petulant and reluctant child of Europe.

If we do leave then Britain will go to rat sh1t and the resentment of the youth of having their future stolen will simply gain momentum and at some stage in the not too distant future we will end up back in but without all our opt outs which actually may be better. A More level playing field with a generation that are fully behind being integrated into Europe.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 December 2018 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Barryd999 - 2018-12-08 1:54 PM

Disagree!

If we dont leave and Britain prospers most of the older Brexiteers who hanker after some fantasy of sunny days from yesteryear will clock off and the young will embrace our place in Europe. I dare say if we do remain things will change in the EU and hopefully we will stop being the petulant and reluctant child of Europe.



Really? ...........Looks to me like the Young & Dumb wise up as they get older ..............

Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-08 2:21 PM




(Young brexit voters.png)



Attachments
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Attachments Young brexit voters.png (52KB - 23 downloads)
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 December 2018 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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No they dont, they just as I said hanker after something that only exists in their imaginations. It was crap here in the early 70s, just crap yet many of the older generation are always banging on about how great it all was. The UK is going against the flow with Brexit. The world is a much smaller place now and everyone is joining trading blocs and joining hands not putting up the borders and folding their arms in defiance wanting their empire back.

Young people see that. They see Brexit as just restricting them and taking away opportunity. If Brexit goes ahead the rest of Europe and the trading world will continue to grow and collaborate and leave us behind. It will become even more apparent to that younger generation who have to deal with your terrible decision what a huge mistake it was. None of them will thank you for it.

Edited by Barryd999 2018-12-08 2:44 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 December 2018 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-08 1:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-08 12:15 PM

So no, I don't see "Brexit peace" breaking out in the near term, because about half of us can see beyond the band of sea, and the rest can't. It will change, but only slowly, as a younger, more outward looking generation begins to take over political control from the older generation who still see the band of sea as our protection.

You forget that younger generation will also grow jaded by the iniquities of our EU membership, as they struggle to compete for work from EU folk who will works for low pay, and they'll also realise that's why their pay is so low ..........

As has become evident by recent wage inflation due to the cheap labour taps being turned off ........

Yes, that is true - up to a point. But, what you the have to ask, is how all those low paid EU (and other) workers came to be in the UK to take up those low paid jobs. You also have to ask why UK businesses chose them to do the jobs, instead of employing local labour. What you then see, is that it was the UK government that chose to let them in (not the EU who "forced" them in), in response to demand from UK employers.

Sadly, it is the case that a lot of those EU workers doing the low paid jobs came from the ex eastern bloc countries, where employment prospects were poor, and were brighter (or at least better educated) and more work hungry then the equivalent UK reared competition.

I remember a bit of news film a while back of a UK asparagus grower being asked why he employed migrant labour in preference to local labour. His answer was because when you tell them you want them to start at 8:00 they arrive early, and you only have to show them the correct way to pick once, then they've got it, whereas the local labour were prone to arrive late (or not at all) and would then need telling repeatedly how to do the job properly. From his point of view the migrants were not only cheaper, they were punctual, worked better and more efficiently, and left him free to get on with other jobs.

But then, you like free markets, and that is how free markets work. As so often, the problem claimed to stem from the EU actually stems from the UK government - who you want to have full control. As they say, you get what you vote for.
userJohn52
Posted: 8 December 2018 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-08 12:15 PM

John52 - 2018-12-08 10:44 AM

Barryd999 - 2018-12-08 9:44 AM
if Parliament decide it is not a sensible route it could and maybe should be revoked without any further public consultation.

Yes but that would take us back to square one with the Tory party fighting amongst itself.
The reason Cameron called the referendum in the first place - to help the Tory party, not the Country.

While that is true John, it is equally true for Labour. I don't quite see how we would be back to square 1, since we have had the referendum, so already we know what people actually thought at that time. Both parties, IMO, are split on EU membership (though for different reasons and to different degrees), and I don't see that changing.

Brexit is not a party issue. The whole idea of the EU transcends left/right boundaries and speaks to basic concepts of trust, vision, co-operation, compromise, openness, and inclusiveness. These are character traits, not political concepts, but they are the traits that politics seeks to, variously, restrict or encourage to foster a more coherent society.

The real difference between us and the mainlanders is, IMO, our vision of the rest of the world as being "out there", and so different to us, rather than being next door to, and so like us. I think this is the acquired psychology of islanders, for whom that band of sea, even today, presents us with an actual physical barrier, whereas the mainlanders are presented with no more than a line on a map that separates them from their neighbour.

So no, I don't see "Brexit peace" breaking out in the near term, because about half of us can see beyond the band of sea, and the rest can't. It will change, but only slowly, as a younger, more outward looking generation begins to take over political control from the older generation who still see the band of sea as our protection.


I think its academic - neither party will have the courage to revoke it without further consultation because so many MPs are scared of losing more votes than they gain. But if they did I think we would be back to square one in that there would be civil war in Parliament over Brexit - probably worse than before because the Brextremists would claim they had a democratic mandate to leave EU whatever the cost.
Very Good point about the sea being a psychological barrier though.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 December 2018 4:23 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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John52 - 2018-12-08 3:22 PM...……………...I think its academic - neither party will have the courage to revoke it without further consultation because so many MPs are scared of losing more votes than they gain. But if they did I think we would be back to square one in that there would be civil war in Parliament over Brexit - probably worse than before because the Brextremists would claim they had a democratic mandate to leave EU whatever the cost.

Yes, I think to that extent we shall most probably end up with a second referendum.

There don't seem to be enough Brextremists to force their "Brexit at any cost" view, so I think the other MPs will probably, as you suggest, chicken out and hand the whole stinking pile back to us to decide. If that is what happens, I just hope someone will be appointed to act as referee on what information can be placed before the public during the course of the campaign, because last time around there were definite lies and huge exaggerations/extrapolations that really should have been shot down.

However, there are still May's "three little pig" options: her deal, no deal, or no Brexit. Her deal has to be approved by parliament: if it is, game over. However, lose that vote and there are now two little pigs. Little pig no deal is the default, but only if parliament doesn't move to eliminate it. So, how does little pig no Brexit come about? Is she hinting that she would seek to unilaterally revoke Article 50, or what? Just seems odd to me!
userpelmetman
Posted: 9 December 2018 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-08 2:51 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-08 1:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-08 12:15 PM

So no, I don't see "Brexit peace" breaking out in the near term, because about half of us can see beyond the band of sea, and the rest can't. It will change, but only slowly, as a younger, more outward looking generation begins to take over political control from the older generation who still see the band of sea as our protection.

You forget that younger generation will also grow jaded by the iniquities of our EU membership, as they struggle to compete for work from EU folk who will works for low pay, and they'll also realise that's why their pay is so low ..........

As has become evident by recent wage inflation due to the cheap labour taps being turned off ........

Yes, that is true - up to a point. But, what you the have to ask, is how all those low paid EU (and other) workers came to be in the UK to take up those low paid jobs. You also have to ask why UK businesses chose them to do the jobs, instead of employing local labour. What you then see, is that it was the UK government that chose to let them in (not the EU who "forced" them in), in response to demand from UK employers.



That's because successive governments have adopted a ever increasing liberal agenda, allowing folk to have the option of living off benefits ...........

Which is why businesses which require labour have taken the easy route of using cheap reliable EU labour untainted by our liberalism .........

When my business got bigger I kept my employees to the absolute minimum, as I preferred increasing my prices and subbing out work too....... becoming a unpaid social worker .........

userPaul-
Posted: 9 December 2018 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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The French don't seem too pleased now they know who will pay once the cash cow has gone
userBulletguy
Posted: 9 December 2018 5:04 PM
Subject: RE: Interesting article
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-08 2:51 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-08 1:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-08 12:15 PM

So no, I don't see "Brexit peace" breaking out in the near term, because about half of us can see beyond the band of sea, and the rest can't. It will change, but only slowly, as a younger, more outward looking generation begins to take over political control from the older generation who still see the band of sea as our protection.

You forget that younger generation will also grow jaded by the iniquities of our EU membership, as they struggle to compete for work from EU folk who will works for low pay, and they'll also realise that's why their pay is so low ..........

As has become evident by recent wage inflation due to the cheap labour taps being turned off ........

Yes, that is true - up to a point. But, what you the have to ask, is how all those low paid EU (and other) workers came to be in the UK to take up those low paid jobs. You also have to ask why UK businesses chose them to do the jobs, instead of employing local labour. What you then see, is that it was the UK government that chose to let them in (not the EU who "forced" them in), in response to demand from UK employers.

Sadly, it is the case that a lot of those EU workers doing the low paid jobs came from the ex eastern bloc countries, where employment prospects were poor, and were brighter (or at least better educated) and more work hungry then the equivalent UK reared competition.

I remember a bit of news film a while back of a UK asparagus grower being asked why he employed migrant labour in preference to local labour. His answer was because when you tell them you want them to start at 8:00 they arrive early, and you only have to show them the correct way to pick once, then they've got it, whereas the local labour were prone to arrive late (or not at all) and would then need telling repeatedly how to do the job properly. From his point of view the migrants were not only cheaper, they were punctual, worked better and more efficiently, and left him free to get on with other jobs.

But then, you like free markets, and that is how free markets work. As so often, the problem claimed to stem from the EU actually stems from the UK government - who you want to have full control. As they say, you get what you vote for.

Hard work is something they don't shy from, particularly manual which is often very physically demanding. Only this year staying on a site in Bulgaria close to the border of Turkey, weather was absolutely blistering yet every day a Roma family were out working a huge tobacco field next to the camp ground. They'd begin at the crack of dawn, work through till around noon, return to the house opposite, then start again around 4pm until 9pm. The tobacco plantation and house was owned by a Bulgarian who paid them a small wage but gave them rent free accommodation in the house.

East Europeans are not only used to hard work they will work anywhere. One year in Poland i met a chap, older than me, who'd worked all over the world in shipbuilding, obviously qualified in the trade but also spoke English with such fluency he quoted many British idioms which i found pretty amazing. Even more amazing, his English was self taught as he was schooled during Russian occupation of Poland. His fluency with English enabled him to work where he wanted.

Many EU and East European have already left UK, 46,000 in the first three months of last year. They've had enough of the political climate and "hostile environment" in UK. Quite who is going to fill the jobs they've left behind i don't know.....maybe the 'new' Asian migrants.

https://www.channel4.com/news/the-families-returning-to-poland-as-brexit-approaches
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