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It really was because of Brexit!
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userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 June 2020 1:17 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Nicepix - 2020-06-15 7:54 PM
Prime Ministers have had advisors for years. Remember Tony Bliar and Alistair Campbell? Cumins is just the latest in a very long line.
Regards Populism; It seems, as I said earlier, to be a derogatory term used by sore losers to describe the people who threaten them and their principles. The EU are terrified of anyone who thinks out of their box getting into power. Marine le Pen for example has been called 'Populist' by the EU leaders but she doesn't for into the description Brian Kirby posts. She has a long standing agenda that has hardly wavered in years ad follows the ideals of her predecessors. She has a loyal and solid party membership. And she does not bow to public pressure, quite the reverse, she remains 'on track'. Same could be said of Nigel Farage.
So how are they 'Populist'?

See here: https://tinyurl.com/hbsw3s4
As to who are "the people" and who the "elite", that rather depends on who is playing the populist politics, does it not? It is notable that the "populists" are not universally popular, and that few have risen to power, so their perceptions as to whose interests they are serving is by no means reliable.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 June 2020 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:57 AM.................Populism is mainly down to and a result of the likes of our very own squad on here and beyond so I thank them and say please carry on what you are doing and never stop as your your hatred does more for the growth of populism than any Nigel Farage could

I almost hesitate to ask, but do you see Jair Bolsinaro as a good leader. He is widely regarded as populist, and has very strong backing in Brazil. And yet, is he really promoting the best interests of the average Brazilian?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 June 2020 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-16 7:37 AM

Populism is covered very well in Wikipedia so I suggest you read that - and take your time because its not easy to get your head around.

Populism is a political approach to gathering support rather than a particular ideology, so it has been employed by people at both extremes of the left/right political spectrum. It's been around in one form or another for over a century, so it's not been invented recently.

Essentially it is an "us and them" way of charactarising problems; "we the people" are right and "them" (the priviledged elite, the big corporations - or alternatively the soppy liberals currently in power) are the corrupt and devious abusers of the people - so that if the people listen to me, their saviour, they will be saved and we will triumph. Charismatic leaders can make effective use of populism. Arguably it targets the 50% of the people who are more gullible than the rest rather than trying to convince the 50% who are cleverer.

Arguably it is the enemy of true democracy because it can lead to the election of dangerous people like Donald Trump and Arthur Scargill.

An excellent summary Stuart.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 June 2020 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM.............................. so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result.

Speak for yourself!

He wasn't exactly a hit as Foreign Secretary, and as European correspondent for the Telegraph, as it's then owner Conrad Black said of him, he "was such an effective correspondent for us in Brussels that he greatly influenced British opinion on this country’s relations with Europe."

Too bloody right he did! He wrote fiction, but the owner liked the Eurosceptic drift of his writing so he got away with it. Must have been rewarding to find ones-self lauded by a convicted fraudster!

My distrust of Boris goes back way before the referendum. He is, IMO, deeply flawed.
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 June 2020 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-16 7:37 AM

Populism is covered very well in Wikipedia so I suggest you read that - and take your time because its not easy to get your head around.

Arguably it is the enemy of true democracy because it can lead to the election of dangerous people like Donald Trump and Arthur Scargill.

You're right about it being right wing/left wing though someone like Chavez would have been a better comparison of 'left' to Trump than *Scargill! O/topic but imo the one major mistake Scargill made was calling a strike without balloting the members which i never figured why as at the time he would undoubtedly have got an overwhelming majority vote.

*edited to add; just read your post as to why you chose Scargill.

Edited by Bulletguy 2020-06-16 2:49 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 June 2020 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-16 1:03 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:29 PM I know you are probably aware The Police in the US lost control of much of it to Black Lives Matter thugs and violence , murder , looting etc etc took over ... POTUS Trump surely acted sensibly to threaten military action ??? ... You are also probably aware EU Goldenboy Mr Macron planned to put the military on the streets in France to deal with Yellow Vest demonstrators , so one can only presume Mr Macron is a "loose cannon and very dangerous" also


I remember Trump coming out with "when the looting starts the shooting starts" which struck me as very un-statesmanlike.

Well Trump has never been a statesman imo, just an ex-reality tv show host who thinks he can run a country via Twitter. His stage swaggering uncannily reminiscent of Mussolini appeals to his followers. I've posted about this before but as you mentioned it, that inflammatory tweet he put out has it's roots in Americas dark history of racism and segregation when it was used by a Miami police chief in 1967 known for his racism.

Headley's use of the phrase is thought to have contributed to intensified race riots, including one of the most serious ones in Miami in 1980, when a black man, Arthur McDuffie, was beaten into a coma by up to a dozen white Dade County police officers after he ran a red light on his motorcycle. He later died from his injuries.

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/864818368/the-history-behind-when-the-looting-starts-the-shooting-starts
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 June 2020 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Brian Kirby - 2020-06-16 1:59 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM.............................. so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result.

Speak for yourself!

He wasn't exactly a hit as Foreign Secretary, and as European correspondent for the Telegraph, as it's then owner Conrad Black said of him, he "was such an effective correspondent for us in Brussels that he greatly influenced British opinion on this country’s relations with Europe."

Too bloody right he did! He wrote fiction, but the owner liked the Eurosceptic drift of his writing so he got away with it. Must have been rewarding to find ones-self lauded by a convicted fraudster!

My distrust of Boris goes back way before the referendum. He is, IMO, deeply flawed.

His 'career' as a motoring journalist where he rarely made the deadline for copy, so lazy he'd expect others to do the job, and notorious for simply making up the technical details of the cars he tested, and anything he didn’t make up he made sure to stuff with sexual overtones. He wrote about everything from the breasts he imagined the sat-nav’s voice to have to overtaking women drivers by “taking them from behind”.

His then-editor at GQ magazine, Dylan Jones, said that Boris’ column was probably the most costly in the magazine’s history, due to the sheer amount of parking tickets and fines he accrued on his test vehicles.

https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-was-once-the-world-s-worst-car-journalist

One of his ex-bosses, Max Hastings then editor of the Telegraph said, "while he is a brilliant entertainer he is unfit for national office, because it seems he cares for no interest save his own fame and gratification."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain
userBarryd999
Posted: 16 June 2020 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM

Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM
Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM
Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative.
Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism.

What is the difference between populism and democracy?

I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism".

Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability.

Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people.

The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas.


That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law.


Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic


We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up.

I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really.


Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks


The mess has been going on a bit longer than that.


Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years


Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result.


If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry


Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10.

Edited by Barryd999 2020-06-16 4:09 PM
userBirdbrain
Posted: 16 June 2020 4:38 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM

Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM
Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM
Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative.
Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism.

What is the difference between populism and democracy?

I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism".

Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability.

Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people.

The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas.


That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law.


Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic


We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up.

I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really.


Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks


The mess has been going on a bit longer than that.


Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years


Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result.


If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry


Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10.


I thought you said Dominic Cummings was in charge ??? ... If so whats the guff about "elected a leader" , I dont remember him going for the Tory leadership ??? ... If Brexit in your view is to blame for our economy just what was/is to blame for EU worlds economies failing , when did they have a Brexit vote ??? ... As for the Covid death figure here in Blighty its been well documented that black deaths have been a major contributor to our tally , that comes as no surprise after the last couple of weeks when they have judged rioting more important than theirs and others safety including The Police , health workers etc etc ... You found certain parts or maybe all "funny" though ... Strange boy
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2020 5:55 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM
being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10.


Wasn't even half tough was it - the majority voted for parties that support a second referendum.
BoJo got in on a minority of the vote by the same old trick of divide and rule.
userNicepix
Posted: 16 June 2020 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 
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StuartO - 2020-06-16 8:37 AM

Populism is covered very well in Wikipedia so I suggest you read that - and take your time because its not easy to get your head around.

Populism is a political approach to gathering support rather than a particular ideology, so it has been employed by people at both extremes of the left/right political spectrum. It's been around in one form or another for over a century, so it's not been invented recently.

Essentially it is an "us and them" way of charactarising problems; "we the people" are right and "them" (the priviledged elite, the big corporations - or alternatively the soppy liberals currently in power) are the corrupt and devious abusers of the people - so that if the people listen to me, their saviour, they will be saved and we will triumph. Charismatic leaders can make effective use of populism. Arguably it targets the 50% of the people who are more gullible than the rest rather than trying to convince the 50% who are cleverer.

Arguably it is the enemy of true democracy because it can lead to the election of dangerous people like Donald Trump and Arthur Scargill.


Where would you put Tony Bliar? He was democratically elected three times after being selected by his own party and he was dangerous. What about John F Kennedy and Dubbya? Both of those almost took us to WW3. Dangerous enough for me. Are you saying that only what you term Populist leaders are dangerous?

I agree that it is a case of "us and them". But I suggest that it is the settled political heirachy who claim to be "Us" and they portray anybody who looks like unsettling their closed shop as "Them". The purpose to make "Them" seem to be a worse choice than "Us".
userBarryd999
Posted: 16 June 2020 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 4:38 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM

Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM
Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM
Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative.
Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism.

What is the difference between populism and democracy?

I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism".

Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability.

Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people.

The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas.


That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law.


Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic


We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up.

I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really.


Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks


The mess has been going on a bit longer than that.


Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years


Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result.


If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry


Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10.


I thought you said Dominic Cummings was in charge ??? ... If so whats the guff about "elected a leader" , I dont remember him going for the Tory leadership ??? ... If Brexit in your view is to blame for our economy just what was/is to blame for EU worlds economies failing , when did they have a Brexit vote ??? ... As for the Covid death figure here in Blighty its been well documented that black deaths have been a major contributor to our tally , that comes as no surprise after the last couple of weeks when they have judged rioting more important than theirs and others safety including The Police , health workers etc etc ... You found certain parts or maybe all "funny" though ... Strange boy


Cummings was part of the package though wasnt he. He's like that little guy in Mad Max beyond Thunder Dome. Master Blaster was it? Controlling the oaf beneath him. They kept him hidden during the election though. In fact he supposedly resigned but of course never really.

Selective memory over the economy. We took a big hit because of Brexit long before any downturn in Europe.
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2020 6:17 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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StuartO - 2020-06-16 11:59 AM


And I think Scargill was a charismatic rabble rouser who got the NUM behind him with an "us & them" banner very effectively during the Miners' Strike. It was of course a bad strategic move because it subjected the miners to a long and painful struggle and led to the closure of the deep mining coal industry in UK - and Scargill showed his true colour later during the prolonged personal dispute he had with the residue of the broken NUM trying to feather his own nest.



Not exactly.
Scargill got over 70% of the vote by appealing to miners who wanted to feather their own nest just like he did for himself. He began as compensation agent - like the claims management companies of today asking if you have been injured etc. He was very effective in pursuing claims - to hear him talk you would think the employer was some grotesque victorian mine owner, instead of the general public who by then owned the mines.

Scargill was the man who turned up at the miners welfare with the big cheques for injured miners. So he became very popular very quickly, and rose rapidly up the ladder. Many who voted for him knew he was a bit of a nutter, but thought they could rein him in before he went too far.
Unfortunately, when the time came, they couldn't rein him in
userBirdbrain
Posted: 16 June 2020 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 6:13 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 4:38 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM

Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM
Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM
Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative.
Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism.

What is the difference between populism and democracy?

I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism".

Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability.

Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people.

The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas.


That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law.


Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic


We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up.

I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really.


Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks


The mess has been going on a bit longer than that.


Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years


Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result.


If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry


Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10.


I thought you said Dominic Cummings was in charge ??? ... If so whats the guff about "elected a leader" , I dont remember him going for the Tory leadership ??? ... If Brexit in your view is to blame for our economy just what was/is to blame for EU worlds economies failing , when did they have a Brexit vote ??? ... As for the Covid death figure here in Blighty its been well documented that black deaths have been a major contributor to our tally , that comes as no surprise after the last couple of weeks when they have judged rioting more important than theirs and others safety including The Police , health workers etc etc ... You found certain parts or maybe all "funny" though ... Strange boy


Cummings was part of the package though wasnt he. He's like that little guy in Mad Max beyond Thunder Dome. Master Blaster was it? Controlling the oaf beneath him. They kept him hidden during the election though. In fact he supposedly resigned but of course never really.

Selective memory over the economy. We took a big hit because of Brexit long before any downturn in Europe.


You know best as always but your Bible told a different story before Brexit ... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/15/triple-dip-recession-eurozone-fears-germany-cuts-growth-forecasts ... As for your likening of Mr Cummings to a Mad Max character , when all you have left is Hollywood guff you're in trouble ... Hate on Barry ... By the way Arthur Scargill has nothing to do with the original thread subject , you are very keen to tell me to stick to the thread subject so why havent you ... Again ??? ... Hypocrite

Edited by Birdbrain 2020-06-16 6:32 PM
userBirdbrain
Posted: 16 June 2020 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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John52 - 2020-06-16 6:17 PM

StuartO - 2020-06-16 11:59 AM


And I think Scargill was a charismatic rabble rouser who got the NUM behind him with an "us & them" banner very effectively during the Miners' Strike. It was of course a bad strategic move because it subjected the miners to a long and painful struggle and led to the closure of the deep mining coal industry in UK - and Scargill showed his true colour later during the prolonged personal dispute he had with the residue of the broken NUM trying to feather his own nest.



Not exactly.
Scargill got over 70% of the vote by appealing to miners who wanted to feather their own nest just like he did for himself. He began as compensation agent - like the claims management companies of today asking if you have been injured etc. He was very effective in pursuing claims - to hear him talk you would think the employer was some grotesque victorian mine owner, instead of the general public who by then owned the mines.

Scargill was the man who turned up at the miners welfare with the big cheques for injured miners. So he became very popular very quickly, and rose rapidly up the ladder. Many who voted for him knew he was a bit of a nutter, but thought they could rein him in before he went too far.
Unfortunately, when the time came, they couldn't rein him in


By the time those miners realised they'd been taken in by a big Labour man hell bent on bringing down the Tories with their help it was too late ... Many of those miners by the way now own their own council houses thanks to those nasty Tories ... Hate on
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2020 6:48 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:31 PM

.. Many of those miners by the way now own their own council houses thanks to those nasty Tories ...


Thats what I was trying to get across.
His appeal was probably more to people like himself feathering their own nests as it was political ideology.
Tory voters voted for him too.
The Labour party has practically disowned him.

Edited by John52 2020-06-16 6:51 PM
userBirdbrain
Posted: 16 June 2020 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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John52 - 2020-06-16 6:48 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:31 PM

.. Many of those miners by the way now own their own council houses thanks to those nasty Tories ...


Thats what I was trying to get across.
His appeal was probably more to people like himself feathering their own nests as it was political ideology.
Tory voters voted for him too.
The Labour party has practically disowned him.


"Tory voters voted for him too" ... Would love to see some proof of that
userteflon2
Posted: 16 June 2020 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 
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Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 8:16 PM

teflon2 - 2020-06-14 7:00 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-14 12:53 PM

Ouch!! And from the DM!


But it quotes days after he entered No 10 and the virus was not admitted by the Chinese until February 2020, I don't think he ha a crystal ball so how the hell was he to know a pandemic was on the horizon ?.

This timeline from the British Foreign Policy Group says December 31st 2019 at which point WHO declared it a public health emergency of international concern (PHEIC).

https://bfpg.co.uk/2020/04/covid-19-timeline/

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/coronavirusandtheeffectsonukprices/2020-05-06#background




You need to read tour own link the WHO did't declare it a public health emergency until 31st January. The Chinese government only called it pneumonia when they reported it to the WHO on 31st December.
userBarryd999
Posted: 16 June 2020 10:30 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:27 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 6:13 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 4:38 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 4:08 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 12:22 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 9:07 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 8:57 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:29 AM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 10:33 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-15 6:58 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-15 6:17 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-06-15 5:54 PM

Nicepix - 2020-06-14 8:24 PM
Bulletguy - 2020-06-14 5:17 PM
Ah but the DM becomes a "lefty loser" paper run by "Remoaner" Geordie Grieg when it publishes articles that don't dance to the Brexiteers narrative.
Interestingly UK has been knocked down into third place on the world stats for Covid-19 deaths as Brazil hit over 41,000 to become the second worst with US well out in the lead. More than a coincidence all three countries led by populism.

What is the difference between populism and democracy?

I think the above question is based on a false premise. Populism is a form of democracy. I think the question is really, "what is the difference between representative democracy and populism".

Representative democracy is what we presently have, where candidates to be MPs are elected by us on the basis that they will have access to information that most of us will not see, and will decide together whether government (the "executive") proposals should be implemented. So we pay them to do that work for us, and trust them to do so to the best of their judgement and ability.

Populism, on the other hand, seems more akin to government by permanent referendum, where the MPs become delegates of their constituents, bound to do as instructed by them. The executive merely makes proposals, the proposals are taken by the MPs back to their constituents, who vote on them, and then return the results to parliament where the MPs will vote collectively as individually instructed, with the result becoming an instruction to the executive to proceed accordingly. So, the decision is moved closer to the people.

The problems I see with populism are that it caters to the lowest common denominator, and not to the highest common factor. It also makes holding a settled policy almost impossible as moods and events swirl and shift within society. And finally it also seems to me overly prone to being hijacked by charismatic manipulators with dubious agendas.


That will be President Cummings then that nobody voted for but is somehow running the country and above the law.


Im confused again ... It really grinds you that Mr Cummings broke lockdown rules , you have mentioned it and complained about it quite a lot , yet you found if "funny" when others broke lockdown rules to vandalise and throw history in the sea ... let me in to your logic


We weren't under lock down when they decided to chuck the statue in the drink. We were in the middle of the first wave and lock down when Cummings who is the most powerful man in the country decided to break his own rules and go for a jolly as well as breaking many other rules and then trying to cover it all up.

I said from the off the protests should not have been allowed to go ahead and were a bad idea but I was pleased to see that statue go and yes it was funny. I liked the Clanging noise and splash. Bit Monty Python. Should have maybe left it at that though. That was enough of a statement really.


Quick recap ... Mr Cummings is now "the most powerful man in the country" and you found vandalism and thuggery "funny" ... That just about sums up the mess of the last few weeks


The mess has been going on a bit longer than that.


Please don't say you and others have held those views for more than a few weeks ... Well ye I suppose now ya mention it , prolly just about 4 years


Well now you mention it. You are right. It is about four years since it all became a mess. I cant quite put my finger on it but the economy went down the toilet, we somehow elected a bumbling moron as a leader who has completely screwed up just about everything he touches and we have the worst death toll in Europe from Covid 19 under his watch so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result.


If our economy "went down the toilet" how would you describe most of the other EU members economies one might wonder ??? ... Given you proudly declared Mr Johnson as a "shi& excuse for a human being" your toilet silliness goes quite well with your pure hatred ... Hate on Barry


Ours started going down the toilet four years ago though because of the Brexit vote which has now cost us more money than we ever paid into the EU throughout nearly half a century of membership. Its cost us much more in human lives now though as you elected a leader who is totally incompetent and a one trick pony. The one Trick being able to do what a good populist leader does and convince just over half a nation that his path is the right one by telling a pack of lies and promising the earth while dividing the entire nation at the same time. All so he could carve his route to number 10.


I thought you said Dominic Cummings was in charge ??? ... If so whats the guff about "elected a leader" , I dont remember him going for the Tory leadership ??? ... If Brexit in your view is to blame for our economy just what was/is to blame for EU worlds economies failing , when did they have a Brexit vote ??? ... As for the Covid death figure here in Blighty its been well documented that black deaths have been a major contributor to our tally , that comes as no surprise after the last couple of weeks when they have judged rioting more important than theirs and others safety including The Police , health workers etc etc ... You found certain parts or maybe all "funny" though ... Strange boy


Cummings was part of the package though wasnt he. He's like that little guy in Mad Max beyond Thunder Dome. Master Blaster was it? Controlling the oaf beneath him. They kept him hidden during the election though. In fact he supposedly resigned but of course never really.

Selective memory over the economy. We took a big hit because of Brexit long before any downturn in Europe.


You know best as always but your Bible told a different story before Brexit ... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/15/triple-dip-recession-eurozone-fears-germany-cuts-growth-forecasts ... As for your likening of Mr Cummings to a Mad Max character , when all you have left is Hollywood guff you're in trouble ... Hate on Barry ... By the way Arthur Scargill has nothing to do with the original thread subject , you are very keen to tell me to stick to the thread subject so why havent you ... Again ??? ... Hypocrite


That was a prediction long before Brexit which never came true and as we all know we went from the top of the leader board for growth to the bottom within no time following the Brexit vote

WTF you on about regarding Arthur Scaregill? I never mentioned the toad. I knew his niece you know when I was at school. Hot little thing she was. Said he gave her the creeps.
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2020 7:39 AM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:53 PM

John52 - 2020-06-16 6:48 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:31 PM

.. Many of those miners by the way now own their own council houses thanks to those nasty Tories ...


Thats what I was trying to get across.
His appeal was probably more to people like himself feathering their own nests as it was political ideology.
Tory voters voted for him too.
The Labour party has practically disowned him.


"Tory voters voted for him too" ... Would love to see some proof of that


How can you prove who someone voted for
.... and who would admit to voting for Thatcher now
Can you prove any of them voted Labour
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2020 7:49 AM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:31 PM
a big Labour man


.. well of course the Tory press would try to associate the Labour party with every extremist and nut-job

.... but how far did this 'big Labour man' actually get in the Labour party
Labour party leader wouldn't even share the same platform with him
Dennis Healey called the miners 'Lions led by Donkeys'

so he tried to form his own party - why would a 'big Labour man' do that

Edited by John52 2020-06-17 8:02 AM
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 June 2020 9:15 AM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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John52 - 2020-06-17 7:39 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:53 PM

John52 - 2020-06-16 6:48 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:31 PM

.. Many of those miners by the way now own their own council houses thanks to those nasty Tories ...


Thats what I was trying to get across.
His appeal was probably more to people like himself feathering their own nests as it was political ideology.
Tory voters voted for him too.
The Labour party has practically disowned him.


"Tory voters voted for him too" ... Would love to see some proof of that


How can you prove who someone voted for
.... and who would admit to voting for Thatcher now
Can you prove any of them voted Labour


I voted for Thatcher ..........

userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2020 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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The fundamental point is the mines were public owned.
The Labour party was all about supporting that - even not minding if one was slightly underpaid as it was all going to the common good.
Wheras Scargill made a career out of fighting it to get more money for his members.
Exactly what Thatcher was doing in offering them a cheap council house.
When you understand that, you can understand why people would vote for Scargill and Thatcher.
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2020 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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pelmetman - 2020-06-17 9:15 AM

John52 - 2020-06-17 7:39 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:53 PM

John52 - 2020-06-16 6:48 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:31 PM

.. Many of those miners by the way now own their own council houses thanks to those nasty Tories ...


Thats what I was trying to get across.
His appeal was probably more to people like himself feathering their own nests as it was political ideology.
Tory voters voted for him too.
The Labour party has practically disowned him.


"Tory voters voted for him too" ... Would love to see some proof of that


How can you prove who someone voted for
.... and who would admit to voting for Thatcher now
Can you prove any of them voted Labour


I voted for Thatcher ..........



My point exactly
userBirdbrain
Posted: 17 June 2020 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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John52 - 2020-06-17 7:39 AM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:53 PM

John52 - 2020-06-16 6:48 PM

Birdbrain - 2020-06-16 6:31 PM

.. Many of those miners by the way now own their own council houses thanks to those nasty Tories ...


Thats what I was trying to get across.
His appeal was probably more to people like himself feathering their own nests as it was political ideology.
Tory voters voted for him too.
The Labour party has practically disowned him.


"Tory voters voted for him too" ... Would love to see some proof of that


How can you prove who someone voted for
.... and who would admit to voting for Thatcher now
Can you prove any of them voted Labour


"Tory voters voted for him too" ... Your words not mine ... You obviously have no proof to back it up as usual and then you'll accuse me of "trolling" just because I have shown you're lying ... Oh Lordy My
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2020 7:34 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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I only know what they told me - Of course you can't prove who they voted for.
You could prove Scargill was a 'big Labour man' if it were true
You could say what job in the Labour party he held
userBirdbrain
Posted: 17 June 2020 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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John52 - 2020-06-17 7:34 PM

I only know what they told me - Of course you can't prove who they voted for.
You could prove Scargill was a 'big Labour man' if it were true
You could say what job in the Labour party he held


Chuckle ... "they" Tories went out of their way to tell you , a fella in a builders van they voted for King Arthur ... Chuckle ... You are funny
userJohn52
Posted: 2 July 2020 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Birdbrain - 2020-06-17 7:38 PM

John52 - 2020-06-17 7:34 PM

I only know what they told me - Of course you can't prove who they voted for.
You could prove Scargill was a 'big Labour man' if it were true
You could say what job in the Labour party he held


Chuckle ... "they" Tories went out of their way to tell you , a fella in a builders van they voted for King Arthur ... Chuckle ... You are funny


I didn't say they went out of their way to tell me
Thats something else you have made up
userJohn52
Posted: 2 July 2020 4:03 PM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Brian Kirby - 2020-06-16 1:59 PM

Barryd999 - 2020-06-16 10:44 AM.............................. so yeah I guess we have held those views ever since Johnson hatched his plan for the number 1 job four years ago. Look at the state we are in now as a result.

Speak for yourself!

He wasn't exactly a hit as Foreign Secretary, and as European correspondent for the Telegraph, as it's then owner Conrad Black said of him, he "was such an effective correspondent for us in Brussels that he greatly influenced British opinion on this country’s relations with Europe."

Too bloody right he did! He wrote fiction, but the owner liked the Eurosceptic drift of his writing so he got away with it. Must have been rewarding to find ones-self lauded by a convicted fraudster!

My distrust of Boris goes back way before the referendum. He is, IMO, deeply flawed.


A Demagogue who should have stuck to writing lies for tabloids
userpelmetman
Posted: 3 July 2020 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: It really was because of Brexit!
 


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Snigger.........the Losers are still hurting ...........

http://daystobrexit.co.uk/

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