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National Nick Names
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userMike Parke
Posted: 20 August 2007 11:19 PM
Subject: National Nick Names
 
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I made comment yesterday on Poppy's thread to a remark by the 'OldGit' relating to 'Frogs & Rosbifs' In order to answer other posts refering to what I said at that time I will place my thoughts on a new thread under 'Chatterbox' to avoid going 'off thread' should I have posted a reply on 'Motorhome Matters'. I am in no way being 'Politically correct' as I have no time for any one with such traits but what does annoy me is the fact that, generally speaking, people of my generation accuse those of younger generations of not having the same respect for others as we have (had) when we were young. It follows, therefore, I suggest . that we should set an example and address others respectfully and correctly. If we do not then we cannot complain about youngsters as they are merely follows the example of their elders, (and betters?).

I was always brought up to call strangers 'Sir' or 'Madam' until I was told their name and then to call them 'Mr' or 'Mrs'. Something I still do. I cannot abide the term 'Mate' and do not use it to anyone and do not like being addressed that way myself, regardless of the persons age!. During my time in the Police Force I never addressed anyone as 'mate' but would always refer to them in a respectful form of address such as 'Sir' 'Mr', 'My friend' 'Old Chap' etc.

The same applies to foreign nationals who I will always call by their country of origin, i.e.'French', 'German', 'American', 'Chinese' etc. etc. and not any 'derogatory' nick name.

If we all shew more respect for each other then surely, I feel, we would all get on much better. I fully accept that some of you will strongly disagree with what I have said but that is the reason I 'critised' the 'Old Git'. (Who, by the way, whilst I am sure he is a gentleman, I wish he would not call himself by such a name!!!)

Regards, Mike.
usermichele
Posted: 20 August 2007 11:30 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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Mike,
I can't even see the comment I take it you refer to MMM giveaway?.
usercaraprof
Posted: 20 August 2007 11:45 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


I couldn't agree more about politeness and I too have made the same point and also call strangers 'Sir' etc. but having said that, I feel that, in another example of modern parlance, you should 'lighten up' a little.

Why do you assume that nicknames must necessarily be derogatory? I have a friend who is incredibly important in South Wales, ex Lord Mayor of Cardiff, Lord Lieutenant of Glamorgan etc. etc. and I delight in calling him a member of 'The Tafia' which is what I call the people who run South Wales. He loves the description!

A business acqaintance is a German national who runs a well-known photographic company's U.K branch and whenever we meet I'll often say "Ulrich, how's my favourite Kraut then?" to which he's likely to respond "Up yours Tommy."

We do this because we're good friends and friends can have a laugh about our national stereotypes. If when I'm talking about the French to one of my friends I don't think that mentioning the 'Froggies' is derogatory and I'm sure that Australians call us 'Poms' without any maliciousness intended.

There's a huge difference between banter and insulting racism and despite what you say I still maintain that you are suffering from a severe bout of political correctness!

userMike Parke
Posted: 20 August 2007 11:49 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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michele - 2007-08-20 11:30 PM

Mike,
I can't even see the comment I take it you refer to MMM giveaway?.




Michelle, see 'Ok Sugeestion (keep it clean) from Poppy 8th post in.
Mike.
userRanger
Posted: 20 August 2007 11:49 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Yes Mike, I go along with your line of thought, "Do unto others etc. etc" but to be fair Dave the "OLD GIT" does not spare himself, so perhaps there is no malice aforethought. If you have a look at his replies to my post on "the name game" on 'chatterbox' he is very polite respectful, when pointing out my bad spelling mistakes.

Edited by Ranger 2007-08-20 11:51 PM
userMike Parke
Posted: 20 August 2007 11:52 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Caraprof, 'Policical correctness' absolutly NOT. I am , however, called a 'Snob' most of the time!! I do like to do things in what I consider the 'correct' way.

Regards, Mike.

userMike Parke
Posted: 20 August 2007 11:54 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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You can tell that it is getting late and I am on night shift as I have made an error spelling 'political'!!!!

Sorry, Mike.
userMike Parke
Posted: 21 August 2007 4:05 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Caraprof: Indeed your names you call your friends are respectful because they are your friends. I suggest that you would not use them to complete strangers which is my point regarding being respectful, is it not?

Still awake as you can see. Only 2 1/2 hours before I can go to bed!
The things we (I) do for money!!!
Regards, Mike.
userW3526602
Posted: 21 August 2007 6:55 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Hi Mike,

If you are unhappy calling somebody by a nickname because you think it is derogatory, then it IS derogatory.

I see you are/were a policeman. Did you object to being called a copper? I can understand that being called The Filth would not be nice, but then that name is intended to be insulting. Woodentop may, or may not, be insulting, depending on whether the person so addressing you can accept similar banter in return.

Hmmm....if a policeman started to get heavy with me, I might take offence at him calling me by any name that I was able justify as being insulting. I once had a constable start shouting at me when I replied that "I didn't know". He had asked me if my son drove a FIAT, registration so and so. My son actually drove a Citroen (FIAT lookalike) and I didn't know the registration. At the time, I was visiting the police station to report a stolen car dumped in the woods.

How many of us have heard a female colleague snarl down the phone "I am not your Dear!", when dealing with a member of the public? If the public pay your wages.....

602
userOld Git
Posted: 21 August 2007 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Mike Parke - 2007-08-16 11:49 AM

(Re:What's your view. Started by LordThornber on M/H Matters.)

Is that the reason most tuggers need a 4 x 4 and a huge tag axle 'van on the rear??!!!

Regard, (a simple Motorhomer) Mike.


Since I am the poor begger (if you will kindly allow me to call myself that) who inadvertently started all this, might I have the temerity to suggest that you too are capable of giving offence where none is intended.

Please read the above quote of your own post. Even in the context of that thread, which I'm sure was meant as a gentle jibe at worst, I'm sure some caravanners would be quite upset at being called "tuggers", since this term can be, and often is used in a derogatory sense against them.

In addition, the tone of your comment referring to "a 4 x 4 and a huge tag axle 'van on the rear??!!!" could easily be taken as offensive - even without the row of exclamation marks. With the exclamation marks included it becomes much more difficult to assume that you had no intention of being critical or derogatory.

There is one big problem inherent in contributing to this, or any other similar forum. (I'm going to shout here because it's so important.) THE READER COULDN'T SEE IF THERE WAS A SMILE ON THE FACE, OR A TWINKLE IN THE EYE OF THE CONTRIBUTOR AS IT WAS BEING WRITTEN. It is SO easy to take offence from a disembodied bit of text - and notice I said "take"offence.

I am quite content to accept that you meant no insult or injury in your own contribution quoted above, so therefore none should be taken by the reader.

Won't you extend the same courtesy to me?
userDave Newell
Posted: 21 August 2007 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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"There is one big problem inherent in contributing to this, or any other similar forum. (I'm going to shout here because it's so important.) THE READER COULDN'T SEE IF THERE WAS A SMILE ON THE FACE, OR A TWINKLE IN THE EYE OF THE CONTRIBUTOR AS IT WAS BEING WRITTEN. It is SO easy to take offence from a disembodied bit of text - and notice I said "take"offence."

Surely this is why we have the emoticons? They enable us to simply add a smile , a wink or, if we're playing devil's advocate the devilish grin

Perhaps if a few more people used these to indicate the general mood of their post less people would take offence where none was intended.

D.
userOld Git
Posted: 21 August 2007 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Dave Newell - 2007-08-21 10:02 AM

"There is one big problem inherent in contributing to this, or any other similar forum. (I'm going to shout here because it's so important.) THE READER COULDN'T SEE IF THERE WAS A SMILE ON THE FACE, OR A TWINKLE IN THE EYE OF THE CONTRIBUTOR AS IT WAS BEING WRITTEN. It is SO easy to take offence from a disembodied bit of text - and notice I said "take"offence."

Surely this is why we have the emoticons? They enable us to simply add a smile , a wink or, if we're playing devil's advocate the devilish grin

Perhaps if a few more people used these to indicate the general mood of their post less people would take offence where none was intended.

D.


Good point Dave. I must try to start using them.

For some reason I have a dislike of them - which I can't explain as it's totally illogical. I think it may be because I hate the "language" so many youngsters use in their text messages - mostly I guess because I can never decipher it. (It's up to them though how they speak to each other, though I wish they would offer me a translation sometimes.) Earlier in the year when some Scottish university said it would allow "text speak" in public examination papers I nearly cancelled my membership of the human race.

Not that I am "precious" about language, or anything much else to be honest. The purpose of language is to convey meaning, and does it really matter if the spelling does not accurately coincide with the current opinion of the Shorter Oxford? But text-speak in your M.Sc finals????

Off post again! Mea culpa. Thanks again for the hint Dave - I will try. but why won't it let me insert one into the previous text while I am in edit mode without having to drag and drop?
usermichele
Posted: 21 August 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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It should do once you edit you can add anything so I know not why
userOld Git
Posted: 21 August 2007 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Sorry - another senior moment. Should have explained more carefully. I was in Preview mode and tried to edit the live text box. It would only insert an emoticon at the very end of the text , but would let me drag and drop it to where I wanted it .

Curious, but it is a computer so what do you expect!

Just tried it again when inserting these, and the same thing happened. Ah well - no great problem.
userTony Jones
Posted: 21 August 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Mike Parke - 2007-08-20 11:19 PM

I was always brought up to call strangers 'Sir' or 'Madam' until I was told their name and then to call them 'Mr' or 'Mrs'. Something I still do. I cannot abide the term 'Mate' and do not use it to anyone and do not like being addressed that way myself, regardless of the persons age!. During my time in the Police Force I never addressed anyone as 'mate' but would always refer to them in a respectful form of address such as 'Sir' 'Mr', 'My friend' 'Old Chap' etc.



I don't know if it's just because we rarely use them, but "Sir" and "Madam" always sound a bit pompous to me. On the other hand, in France strangers naturally address each other as "Monsieur" and "Madame" without a trace of self-consciousness. Is this because they're inherently more polite? Or just that they're in the habit and we're not? On second thoughts, the equivalents in Spain and Italy are also used much more, so it can't be about politeness! Maybe it's a "Mediterranean" thing ....

Tony
usercaraprof
Posted: 21 August 2007 1:43 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


The problem is though Tony, that we don't have other words, that I can think of anyway, to replace Sir and Madam. I too, when stopping a stranger to ask directions for instance, will say: "Excuse me Sir....."

Our American cousins (the Yanks!) can teach us a lot about manners, they will use Sir and Madam all the time and somehow it seems most unpompous coming from them.

What I really hate is being called 'Mate' or 'Pal' by some spotty youth!

usermichele
Posted: 21 August 2007 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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I once said to an old biddy excuse me dear she said I,m not your dear .........
Oh get er
userVictor Meldrew
Posted: 21 August 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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Mike Parke - 2007-08-20 11:19 PM

I made comment yesterday on Poppy's thread to a remark by the 'OldGit' relating to 'Frogs & Rosbifs' In order to answer other posts refering to what I said at that time I will place my thoughts on a new thread under 'Chatterbox' to avoid going 'off thread' should I have posted a reply on 'Motorhome Matters'. I am in no way being 'Politically correct' as I have no time for any one with such traits but what does annoy me is the fact that, generally speaking, people of my generation accuse those of younger generations of not having the same respect for others as we have (had) when we were young. It follows, therefore, I suggest . that we should set an example and address others respectfully and correctly. If we do not then we cannot complain about youngsters as they are merely follows the example of their elders, (and betters?).

I was always brought up to call strangers 'Sir' or 'Madam' until I was told their name and then to call them 'Mr' or 'Mrs'. Something I still do. I cannot abide the term 'Mate' and do not use it to anyone and do not like being addressed that way myself, regardless of the persons age!. During my time in the Police Force I never addressed anyone as 'mate' but would always refer to them in a respectful form of address such as 'Sir' 'Mr', 'My friend' 'Old Chap' etc.

The same applies to foreign nationals who I will always call by their country of origin, i.e.'French', 'German', 'American', 'Chinese' etc. etc. and not any 'derogatory' nick name.

If we all shew more respect for each other then surely, I feel, we would all get on much better. I fully accept that some of you will strongly disagree with what I have said but that is the reason I 'critised' the 'Old Git'. (Who, by the way, whilst I am sure he is a gentleman, I wish he would not call himself by such a name!!!)

Regards, Mike.



I have never been able to address anyone as ‘Sir’ or ‘Madam’, if I was to do so, rightly or wrongly; I’d feel as if I was stating that that person is superior to me, likewise I cannot abide being addressed as ‘Sir’ as I don’t feel I am superior to anyone else. If someone was to address me as ‘Old chap’ I’d feel they were being condescending, I find the term ‘Mate’ or ‘Brian’ much friendlier and use them if talking to strangers.

As for what we call foreigners, ‘Frog’, ‘Yank’, ‘Chink’, ‘Paky’ etc. I’d use these words without a second thought as they are not intended to be offensive anymore than the word ‘Pom’ is; although I know that some people strangely feign offence, and even stranger, some people feign offence on behalf of others. If one was to add the word ‘b*stard’ to any of the above I could understand offence being taken.

I find the ‘Old Git’ user name amusing and your attitude rather pompous.
userMike Parke
Posted: 21 August 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Can anyone tell me how to put the lid back onto a can of worms??

Thanks, Mike.

userMel B
Posted: 21 August 2007 9:35 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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Mike

Don't put the lid on, use the worms to go fishing instead .... that way you can watch them riddle and enjoy their suffering.

For the record, I hate being called "love" by people who don't know me, but I accept that it's not meant as an insult, its just their way of talking.

As for calling everyone Sir or Madam (or Ma'am) I've just watched a documentary on Elvis and he was always so polite all the time calling people Sir and Ma'am, despite being the superstar he was. Nice.
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 21 August 2007 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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Once upon a time I did a contract in Drebyshire and it were right funny when a local said to my mate "ay up me duck, 'ow yer doing?" My mate smacked him in the mouth for being so familiar 'cos where we come from "me duck" is usually used towards women!

D.
userMike Parke
Posted: 21 August 2007 10:18 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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My wife always tells me that my trouble is that I will always say what I think without thinking of what I say! I also have an obscure sense of humour and my tongue is usually firmly in my cheek but as, I think, Dave N said, you cannot always tell this when on a chatsite. That said I still enjoy a 'good ol' mardle' as the locals in Norfolk wouyld say!!

Regards, Mike.
usermichele
Posted: 21 August 2007 10:20 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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Victor Meldrew - 2007-08-21 3:31 PM

Mike Parke - 2007-08-20 11:19 PM

I made comment yesterday on Poppy's thread to a remark by the 'OldGit' relating to 'Frogs & Rosbifs' In order to answer other posts refering to what I said at that time I will place my thoughts on a new thread under 'Chatterbox' to avoid going 'off thread' should I have posted a reply on 'Motorhome Matters'. I am in no way being 'Politically correct' as I have no time for any one with such traits but what does annoy me is the fact that, generally speaking, people of my generation accuse those of younger generations of not having the same respect for others as we have (had) when we were young. It follows, therefore, I suggest . that we should set an example and address others respectfully and correctly. If we do not then we cannot complain about youngsters as they are merely follows the example of their elders, (and betters?).

I was always brought up to call strangers 'Sir' or 'Madam' until I was told their name and then to call them 'Mr' or 'Mrs'. Something I still do. I cannot abide the term 'Mate' and do not use it to anyone and do not like being addressed that way myself, regardless of the persons age!. During my time in the Police Force I never addressed anyone as 'mate' but would always refer to them in a respectful form of address such as 'Sir' 'Mr', 'My friend' 'Old Chap' etc.

The same applies to foreign nationals who I will always call by their country of origin, i.e.'French', 'German', 'American', 'Chinese' etc. etc. and not any 'derogatory' nick name.

If we all shew more respect for each other then surely, I feel, we would all get on much better. I fully accept that some of you will strongly disagree with what I have said but that is the reason I 'critised' the 'Old Git'. (Who, by the way, whilst I am sure he is a gentleman, I wish he would not call himself by such a name!!!)

Regards, Mike.



I have never been able to address anyone as ‘Sir’ or ‘Madam’, if I was to do so, rightly or wrongly; I’d feel as if I was stating that that person is superior to me, likewise I cannot abide being addressed as ‘Sir’ as I don’t feel I am superior to anyone else. If someone was to address me as ‘Old chap’ I’d feel they were being condescending, I find the term ‘Mate’ or ‘Brian’ much friendlier and use them if talking to strangers.

As for what we call foreigners, ‘Frog’, ‘Yank’, ‘Chink’, ‘Paky’ etc. I’d use these words without a second thought as they are not intended to be offensive anymore than the word ‘Pom’ is; although I know that some people strangely feign offence, and even stranger, some people feign offence on behalf of others. If one was to add the word ‘b*stard’ to any of the above I could understand offence being taken.

I find the ‘Old Git’ user name amusing and your attitude rather pompous.
SHUTUP MOANING TC you wind up merchant

Edited by michele 2007-08-21 10:20 PM
userSyd
Posted: 21 August 2007 11:54 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


W3526602 - 2007-08-21 6:55 AM

Hi Mike,

If you are unhappy calling somebody by a nickname because you think it is derogatory, then it IS derogatory.


Hi W3526602 and Mike
Here is the fatal flaw in this discussion

I cannot be bothered to hunt it out but someone on this thread has said that

if a remark isnt meant as derogatory then it isn't derogatory but here you are saying that if it is thought to be derogatory then it is derogatory.

Now which is ??
Who takes precedence in deciding if a remark is derogatory or not,
the person making the remark or the person receiving the remark.


Just curious thats all
userOld Git
Posted: 22 August 2007 8:51 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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W3526602 - 2007-08-21 6:55 AM
Who takes precedence in deciding if a remark is derogatory or not,
the person making the remark or the person receiving the remark.


Both I'd say Syd - simultaneously if some of the threads on this, and most other forums are anything to go by.

Must say though, this one seems far more good natured than some I have looked in on (and not bothered with further). Like anyone else Motorhomers have their differences, but maybe they (we) are a bit more grown up than some and can make peace gracefully when the "debate" has been done to death.
userW3526602
Posted: 22 August 2007 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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Hi Syd,

If somebody addressed me by my surname, I would tend to be offended, unless I was in a situation where that was the norm....military or publuic school, for instance. But politicians seem to be able to write to each other either way....Dear John, or Dear Smith.

Then you get the "old school" wife who addresses he husband as Mr....

Or the eldery ladies who have been friends all there lives,and address each other as Mrs.....

Respect is what I feel, or what I show, not what I say.

But I respect Mike P for his attitude towards his "customers", I wish more coppers had the same attitude. I suspect they are trained to be "superior" nowadays. I have even found SOME nurses to be less than polite.

602
userOld Git
Posted: 22 August 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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W3526602 - 2007-08-22 8:53 AM

Hi Syd,

If somebody addressed me by my surname, I would tend to be offended, unless I was in a situation where that was the norm....military or publuic school, for instance. But politicians seem to be able to write to each other either way....Dear John, or Dear Smith.

Then you get the "old school" wife who addresses he husband as Mr....

Or the eldery ladies who have been friends all there lives,and address each other as Mrs.....

Respect is what I feel, or what I show, not what I say.

But I respect Mike P for his attitude towards his "customers", I wish more coppers had the same attitude. I suspect they are trained to be "superior" nowadays. I have even found SOME nurses to be less than polite.

602


I entirely agree John, and really like your phrase, "Respect is what I feel, or what I show, not what I say."

But to go back to Syd's shrewd observation:-"Who takes precedence in deciding if a remark is derogatory or not, the person making the remark or the person receiving the remark?", it is so easy for both of them to get it wrong.

(Don't anybody dare to skip-read the next bit and start jumping to the wrong conclusion!)

For example, I've no doubt Mike Parke had the best of motives in calling his customers "My Friend" or "Old Chap", and would hope that if I was the recipient I would be mature enough not to react. Either one would annoy me however, as I am not his friend and therefore would not want to be addressed as such (especially if he was feeling my collar at the time!!) Again "Old Chap" always irritates me when used by a stranger and always makes me feel patronised. I freely accept however, that in both cases this is just my own personal feeling and I am at least 50% to blame for any misunderstanding or ill feeling. I wish I was as certain that I would be able to keep my mouth shut - especially in a somewhat heated situation.

This is clearly a case where both are right, and both are wrong. What's the answer - a bit more tolerance and understanding I guess, and don't take life or yourself too seriously. Easily said!!

Edited by Old Git 2007-08-22 9:30 AM
userSyd
Posted: 22 August 2007 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


The point that I was hoping someone would pick up on is

There is absolutely no way that anyone can hope to make inoffensive remarks all of the time because you will always come across the PC idiot who spends their entire life simply looking for people to make remarks that they can then deliberately claim is offensive to them.

What is unclear though is if the remark is made with no offence meant in any way, quiet innocently, and some PC idiot siezes the chance to be offended should the person who made the remark then be forced to say a grovelling "sorry"
And if not how do we know that the remark was made quiet innocently in the first instance and the person that we are calling a PC idiot is actually a PC idiot and not genuinely offended

How do we get round that problem, stop talking altogether ??

For instance W3526602, we differ on the use of surnames, calling me by my surname wouldn't offend me it would simply make me think that that person was a bit short on manners and unless I knew that person somwhat I would make a mental note to avoid voluntary contact with that person.

Is it offensive to call Mr Smith "Smithy" if you know him, No I don't think so but who would call Mr Smith "Smithy" if they didn't know him. No one surely
userOld Git
Posted: 22 August 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 
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This discussion gets more interesting by the minute.

Unfortunately I have to go an annoy the Mother-in-Law now. The old bat (whoops - there we go again!!) wants a shed moved several yards to the left and muggins was daft enough to volunteer.

Until later.
userMel B
Posted: 22 August 2007 7:11 PM
Subject: RE: National Nick Names
 


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No such think as voluntary volunteering! She suggested, you took the bait and were caught hook, line and sinker!
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