You are logged in as a guest. 
  Home Forums Home  Search our Forums Search our Forums    Log in to the Forums Log in to the Forums  register Register on the Forums  

 Forums ->  General Chat -> Chatterbox
Jump to page : FirstPrevious 1 2 Last
Format:  Go
New Franco-Germany Treaty
AuthorMessage
userantony1969
Posted: 23 January 2019 6:17 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


The special one

Posts: 10720
50005000500100100
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 5:34 PM

So really we are none much the wiser. As I said when it comes to fisticuffs countries dont necessarily follow the rules anyway and go off and do what they like.

Truth is nobody knows what an EU Army means or whether something would ever get off the ground. You could never have a single full blown army and nothing else, it just wouldnt happen. Our current Army as it is is quite safe in or out of the EU I suspect although if Britain becomes poorer as a result of us leaving then I suspect their budgets will be cut.

One things for sure though a broken EU which is what many on here would love to see is certainly a recipe for breaking the peace. Its not that long ago since we have seen war in Europe. Those that work and play together stay together an all that!


Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ... Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ???
userantony1969
Posted: 23 January 2019 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


The special one

Posts: 10720
50005000500100100
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Seems those who are so bothered and wet themselves over supposed Brexit lies dont care that Sir Nick Clegg lied to us and mocked those who questioned him over the EU army ... HYPOCRITES
userBarryd999
Posted: 23 January 2019 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


Forum master

Posts: 4708
20002000500100100
Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


antony1969 - 2019-01-23 6:17 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 5:34 PM

So really we are none much the wiser. As I said when it comes to fisticuffs countries dont necessarily follow the rules anyway and go off and do what they like.

Truth is nobody knows what an EU Army means or whether something would ever get off the ground. You could never have a single full blown army and nothing else, it just wouldnt happen. Our current Army as it is is quite safe in or out of the EU I suspect although if Britain becomes poorer as a result of us leaving then I suspect their budgets will be cut.

One things for sure though a broken EU which is what many on here would love to see is certainly a recipe for breaking the peace. Its not that long ago since we have seen war in Europe. Those that work and play together stay together an all that!


Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ... Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ???


Hmm. You seem to think that a rise of the far right and nationalism that if it succeeds will break the EU apart will make us somehow more united and safer? You dont have to go back far in the history books to see how that always ends. Try 1939 for a kick off.

Whether you like the EU or not its undeniable that us all being in it has helped keep us and Europe safer. You keep reminding us of the rise in terrorism in Europe yet you seek to break apart Europe itself where we have many cross country security agencies, policing and shared database resources, many of which we will lose if we leave the EU. The EU is not perfect for sure but I am finding it very hard to imagine the Europe you see us becoming being remotely better, or safer.
userantony1969
Posted: 23 January 2019 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


The special one

Posts: 10720
50005000500100100
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 6:44 PM

antony1969 - 2019-01-23 6:17 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-01-23 5:34 PM

So really we are none much the wiser. As I said when it comes to fisticuffs countries dont necessarily follow the rules anyway and go off and do what they like.

Truth is nobody knows what an EU Army means or whether something would ever get off the ground. You could never have a single full blown army and nothing else, it just wouldnt happen. Our current Army as it is is quite safe in or out of the EU I suspect although if Britain becomes poorer as a result of us leaving then I suspect their budgets will be cut.

One things for sure though a broken EU which is what many on here would love to see is certainly a recipe for breaking the peace. Its not that long ago since we have seen war in Europe. Those that work and play together stay together an all that!


Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ... Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ???


Hmm. You seem to think that a rise of the far right and nationalism that if it succeeds will break the EU apart will make us somehow more united and safer? You dont have to go back far in the history books to see how that always ends. Try 1939 for a kick off.

Whether you like the EU or not its undeniable that us all being in it has helped keep us and Europe safer. You keep reminding us of the rise in terrorism in Europe yet you seek to break apart Europe itself where we have many cross country security agencies, policing and shared database resources, many of which we will lose if we leave the EU. The EU is not perfect for sure but I am finding it very hard to imagine the Europe you see us becoming being remotely better, or safer.


United ??? You talk about "united" ... What the hell is united about the EU ??? ... Greece , Italy , UK , Czech Republic , Hungary , Poland etc etc ... You think thats united ... Lordy you are deluded ... Barry for every 'expert' on European terrorism that says we'll be weaker for leaving the EU I can find one that says different and the reality is which country in the EU is going to want to make their national security weaker by dumping the UK ... Exactly none so once again its Barry tosh
usercolin
Posted: 23 January 2019 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7470
500020001001001001002525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-22 1:05 PM

Hearsay! Evidence?


It's quite obviously right Brian, Rheinmetall have brought a controlling interest in BAe Systems vehicle division, Challenger II's will soon be rolling into Paris.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 23 January 2019 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


antony1969 - 2019-01-23 6:17 PM...……………..
1 Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ...
2 Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ???

1 History is not exactly encouraging on European peace Antony. See here: http://tinyurl.com/ycwrehtu and look just at the 20th century.

2 The countries that don't like the present format of the EU can either leave, or work together to change it. That they want to change it doesn't mean they want to destroy it. It is the invention of a handful of far sighted politicians in the immediate post-WW2 period. Some of their ideals are dated, some irrelevant to today, but the core idea has generally worked well, and the result has been a remarkable growth in living standards for millions.

I first visited France in 1957, the year of the Treaty of Rome (of which I was then blissfully unaware!) when it was a country on bicycles that seemed far behind the UK as I knew it, even to my schoolboy eyes. I first visited Spain on a package in 1964, when it was under Franco, 22 years before it joined the EU, and it was then little more advanced than 1957 France. Relative to the UK, both have made huge economic advances as a result of EEC/EU membership.

It would be remarkable if a group of 28 countries all saw eye to eye all the time, and inevitable that, to arrive at positions acceptable to most, some are dissatisfied and work to reverse the decisions they dislike. But, despite the occasional dissatisfactions, it is notable that only the UK has persuaded itself to leave, and that most (if not all) of the other 27 are firm behind the way the EU is handling the Brexit negotiations.

That cohesion, and the fact that through the EU they are endlessly in contact, is what ensures the peace. Break that apart and the endless contacts, and the collective EU institutions, would be prone to falling into disuse, and with that the scope for minor disagreements to result in "normal service", as in the Wiki I linked, to reassert itself. It all goes back to the old saying - keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer!

It will have its moments, but providing the will is there, and they all keep talking, I think they will continue to resolve their differences by argument, will continue to prosper, and if we do leave, at some point in the future we will begin to wonder why on earth we didn't stay in and add our voice to the others, and eventually will be driven to start the process of re-joining - even on terms that far less favourable than we now have.
userantony1969
Posted: 23 January 2019 8:21 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


The special one

Posts: 10720
50005000500100100
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-23 8:06 PM

antony1969 - 2019-01-23 6:17 PM...……………..
1 Why is a broken EU a recipe for breaking the peace ??? ...
2 Are you that deluded that you cant see how many countries in the EU are pi$$ed with the EU ... They are now presently members of your dying club but are now at present in the real world Barry very much miffed with the club ... Is that your peace ???

1 History is not exactly encouraging on European peace Antony. See here: http://tinyurl.com/ycwrehtu and look just at the 20th century.

2 The countries that don't like the present format of the EU can either leave, or work together to change it. That they want to change it doesn't mean they want to destroy it. It is the invention of a handful of far sighted politicians in the immediate post-WW2 period. Some of their ideals are dated, some irrelevant to today, but the core idea has generally worked well, and the result has been a remarkable growth in living standards for millions.

I first visited France in 1957, the year of the Treaty of Rome (of which I was then blissfully unaware!) when it was a country on bicycles that seemed far behind the UK as I knew it, even to my schoolboy eyes. I first visited Spain on a package in 1964, when it was under Franco, 22 years before it joined the EU, and it was then little more advanced than 1957 France. Relative to the UK, both have made huge economic advances as a result of EEC/EU membership.

It would be remarkable if a group of 28 countries all saw eye to eye all the time, and inevitable that, to arrive at positions acceptable to most, some are dissatisfied and work to reverse the decisions they dislike. But, despite the occasional dissatisfactions, it is notable that only the UK has persuaded itself to leave, and that most (if not all) of the other 27 are firm behind the way the EU is handling the Brexit negotiations.

That cohesion, and the fact that through the EU they are endlessly in contact, is what ensures the peace. Break that apart and the endless contacts, and the collective EU institutions, would be prone to falling into disuse, and with that the scope for minor disagreements to result in "normal service", as in the Wiki I linked, to reassert itself. It all goes back to the old saying - keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer!

It will have its moments, but providing the will is there, and they all keep talking, I think they will continue to resolve their differences by argument, will continue to prosper, and if we do leave, at some point in the future we will begin to wonder why on earth we didn't stay in and add our voice to the others, and eventually will be driven to start the process of re-joining - even on terms that far less favourable than we now have.


You seem to be suggesting that France and Spain have only prospered or moved on from your boyhood visits thanks to being members of the EU ??? Is that correct ??? As for European conflict in the 20th century I dont believe any of us need a history lesson on it and there again you seem to be suggesting peace has only come about because of the EU which simply just isnt true Brian
userpelmetman
Posted: 23 January 2019 10:21 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 24006
500050005000500020002000
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-23 8:06 PM

It will have its moments, but providing the will is there, and they all keep talking, I think they will continue to resolve their differences by argument, will continue to prosper, and if we do leave, at some point in the future we will begin to wonder why on earth we didn't stay in and add our voice to the others, and eventually will be driven to start the process of re-joining - even on terms that far less favourable than we now have.


If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy .........

So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ...........

Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver ...........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 24 January 2019 5:02 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


antony1969 - 2019-01-23 8:21 PM.......................
1 You seem to be suggesting that France and Spain have only prospered or moved on from your boyhood visits thanks to being members of the EU ??? Is that correct ???
2 As for European conflict in the 20th century I dont believe any of us need a history lesson on it and there again you seem to be suggesting peace has only come about because of the EU which simply just isnt true Brian

1 No, that is not correct. My comment regarding their apparent economic state when I visited was just to illustrate that both have grown faster than the UK over the intervening period. My conclusion is that both have benefited from EEC/EU membership. Is that entirely due to their membership of the EU, as you seem to be trying to infer? Of course it is not, all European countries have grown their economies over the same time periods, and those that started from the lowest base have grown the most. But, I think it undeniable that neither would have grown and developed as quickly as they have in the absence of EEC/EU membership. It seems both agree, as neither seems the slightest inclined to leave.

2 It is impossible to say that this or that event is entirely due to a single cause when assessing the flow of international events. So again, I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU, although many seem to think that is the case. However, given the amount of day to day contact between the member states that EU membership involves, it seems a reasonable assumption that it helps, doesn't it?

You are taking uncontentious statements, inferring from them things I did not say, and then challenging me to give you the proof for what you inferred. Why do you do that? What do you hope to prove, and who to? Your arguments are straw men, so not capable of proof. All you actually prove is a) that you have constructively exaggerated reasonable statements so that they become nonsensical, and b) that those nonsensical statements can't be proved. Was that not obvious to you before you posted?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 24 January 2019 5:04 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-01-23 10:21 PM...……..If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy .........
So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ...........
Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver ...........

Which seem to the most perverse reason I have yet read for leaving. EBBW?
userpelmetman
Posted: 24 January 2019 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 24006
500050005000500020002000
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:04 PM

pelmetman - 2019-01-23 10:21 PM...……..If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy .........
So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ...........
Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver ...........

Which seem to the most perverse reason I have yet read for leaving. EBBW?


I guess you could call it payback .......

Because if you think about it .........

Us hoi polloi have the annoying habit of p*ssing on your Empires .........

userantony1969
Posted: 24 January 2019 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


The special one

Posts: 10720
50005000500100100
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:02 PM

antony1969 - 2019-01-23 8:21 PM.......................
1 You seem to be suggesting that France and Spain have only prospered or moved on from your boyhood visits thanks to being members of the EU ??? Is that correct ???
2 As for European conflict in the 20th century I dont believe any of us need a history lesson on it and there again you seem to be suggesting peace has only come about because of the EU which simply just isnt true Brian

1 No, that is not correct. My comment regarding their apparent economic state when I visited was just to illustrate that both have grown faster than the UK over the intervening period. My conclusion is that both have benefited from EEC/EU membership. Is that entirely due to their membership of the EU, as you seem to be trying to infer? Of course it is not, all European countries have grown their economies over the same time periods, and those that started from the lowest base have grown the most. But, I think it undeniable that neither would have grown and developed as quickly as they have in the absence of EEC/EU membership. It seems both agree, as neither seems the slightest inclined to leave.

2 It is impossible to say that this or that event is entirely due to a single cause when assessing the flow of international events. So again, I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU, although many seem to think that is the case. However, given the amount of day to day contact between the member states that EU membership involves, it seems a reasonable assumption that it helps, doesn't it?

You are taking uncontentious statements, inferring from them things I did not say, and then challenging me to give you the proof for what you inferred. Why do you do that? What do you hope to prove, and who to? Your arguments are straw men, so not capable of proof. All you actually prove is a) that you have constructively exaggerated reasonable statements so that they become nonsensical, and b) that those nonsensical statements can't be proved. Was that not obvious to you before you posted?


But Brian as an EU sympathiser its not what you didn't say but what you did say ... When talking of France and Spain you say "both have made HUGE economic advances as a result of EEC/EU membership" and that may well be so but I like you have no idea how much EU cash funds have been thrown their way so it is impossible to say if those advances you champion are through Spanish/French hard work or EU (our ) money ... You said that being in the EU and being in contact with EU countries is what "ensures the peace" then you change it in your reply to "I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU" ... Im a tad confused as your "ensures" is what it says on the tin only to be seemingly back-tracked on in your last post
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 24 January 2019 6:51 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


antony1969 - 2019-01-24 6:02 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:02 PM

antony1969 - 2019-01-23 8:21 PM.......................
1 You seem to be suggesting that France and Spain have only prospered or moved on from your boyhood visits thanks to being members of the EU ??? Is that correct ???
2 As for European conflict in the 20th century I dont believe any of us need a history lesson on it and there again you seem to be suggesting peace has only come about because of the EU which simply just isnt true Brian

1 No, that is not correct. My comment regarding their apparent economic state when I visited was just to illustrate that both have grown faster than the UK over the intervening period. My conclusion is that both have benefited from EEC/EU membership. Is that entirely due to their membership of the EU, as you seem to be trying to infer? Of course it is not, all European countries have grown their economies over the same time periods, and those that started from the lowest base have grown the most. But, I think it undeniable that neither would have grown and developed as quickly as they have in the absence of EEC/EU membership. It seems both agree, as neither seems the slightest inclined to leave.

2 It is impossible to say that this or that event is entirely due to a single cause when assessing the flow of international events. So again, I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU, although many seem to think that is the case. However, given the amount of day to day contact between the member states that EU membership involves, it seems a reasonable assumption that it helps, doesn't it?

You are taking uncontentious statements, inferring from them things I did not say, and then challenging me to give you the proof for what you inferred. Why do you do that? What do you hope to prove, and who to? Your arguments are straw men, so not capable of proof. All you actually prove is a) that you have constructively exaggerated reasonable statements so that they become nonsensical, and b) that those nonsensical statements can't be proved. Was that not obvious to you before you posted?


But Brian as an EU sympathiser its not what you didn't say but what you did say ... When talking of France and Spain you say "both have made HUGE economic advances as a result of EEC/EU membership" and that may well be so but I like you have no idea how much EU cash funds have been thrown their way so it is impossible to say if those advances you champion are through Spanish/French hard work or EU (our ) money ... You said that being in the EU and being in contact with EU countries is what "ensures the peace" then you change it in your reply to "I am not seeking to claim that peace in Europe has only been maintained as a result of the existence of the EEC/EU" ... Im a tad confused as your "ensures" is what it says on the tin only to be seemingly back-tracked on in your last post


But I did not claim the economic advances that countries have made as a result of EEC/EU membership were the result of what you call "EU cash". I said it was membership that provided the benefits - because membership gives access to a large free trade area and customs union. It is the combination of access to tariff free trade, plus access to investment cash, plus the strategic investments in transport infrastructure, that have opened up the whole of the EU area to manufacturers, allowing them to increase their business. So it is the combination of the larger market and the investment inputs working together that have provided the additional economic growth.

On peace, I said "That cohesion, and the fact that through the EU they are endlessly in contact, is what ensures the peace." Not that the EU ensures the peace, but that the platform it provides for continual, open, dialogue ensures the peace. I think that is true.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 24 January 2019 6:57 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-01-24 5:21 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-01-23 10:21 PM...……..If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy .........
So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ...........
Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver ...........

Which seem to the most perverse reason I have yet read for leaving. EBBW?

I guess you could call it payback .......
Because if you think about it .........
Us hoi polloi have the annoying habit of p*ssing on your Empires .........

So you wreck the UK economy in order to be able to re-join the EU as a net beneficiary of EU funds, and that somehow registers as a win for Brexit? That is even more perverse than your original statement.

As to pissing, I think you're doing it all over your shoes!
userpelmetman
Posted: 24 January 2019 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 24006
500050005000500020002000
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 6:57 PM

pelmetman - 2019-01-24 5:21 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-01-24 5:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-01-23 10:21 PM...……..If your Remoaner predictions are correct we'd be rejoining as a basket case economy .........
So we'd be a net receiver of EU dosh ...........
Which seems to me to be far more favourable than being a net giver ...........

Which seem to the most perverse reason I have yet read for leaving. EBBW?

I guess you could call it payback .......
Because if you think about it .........
Us hoi polloi have the annoying habit of p*ssing on your Empires .........

So you wreck the UK economy in order to be able to re-join the EU as a net beneficiary of EU funds, and that somehow registers as a win for Brexit? That is even more perverse than your original statement.

As to pissing, I think you're doing it all over your shoes!


Actually I'm taking the p*ss Brian .........

For two reasons........we will do fine outside of the EU.......and the EU is unlikely to exist in 10 years .........
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 25 January 2019 8:47 AM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Of course, Dave, of course! I'll take your word for it.
userpelmetman
Posted: 25 January 2019 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 24006
500050005000500020002000
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-25 8:47 AM

Of course, Dave, of course! I'll take your word for it.


No need to take my word for it ..........

Ask the populists who are on the rise all over the EU .........

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2018/nov/20/how-populism-emerged-as-electoral-force-in-europe







Edited by pelmetman 2019-01-25 9:06 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 25 January 2019 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


I'm not interested in "isms" Dave, just practical solutions. Isms tend to get bogged down in their own dogma, and then come unstuck. Populism is said to be of the left or of the right, which simply means that people want solutions, but that their choice of solution depends on whether they see themselves in opposition to authority, or capital. It seems to me to offer facile, but easily understood, solutions to complex social and economic problems.

Both versions have yet to be tested in real world conditions. It wouldn't be unfair to characterise Chavez or Maduro as left wing populists, as they sold their supporters the idea of jam today, but failed to ensure the continuing supply of jam. It is too early to say how the right wing versions will work out in the USA, Hungary, or Poland. If sufficient people are dissatisfied with their lot, and someone offers them hope of better, many will support that person. That much is obvious. What is far less obvious is whether that person can, actually, deliver adequately to maintain the voluntary support of a majority of the whole population. It is also to be revealed whether either will resort to bribery or repression to maintain their grip if/when it begins to slip. IMO, Mugabe was initially a right wing populist who turned to bribery and then repression to maintain his regime.

There is no doubt that the established versions of politics are in difficulty, and need to change to arrest the inequalities they have allowed to develop. I don't think populism has the solutions, though it is good at highlighting the problem. It is the canary in the mine, but I don't think it can remove the firedamp. Time will tell.

Edited by Brian Kirby 2019-01-25 10:41 AM
usermalc d
Posted: 25 January 2019 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 
Lord of the posts

Posts: 7368
500020001001001002525


Populism is just another name for dissatisfaction.

If enough people are ignored for long enough - they ' rise up ' - and vote for change..( even if they don't know what new problems that change may cause ).



Edited by malc d 2019-01-25 10:52 AM
userpelmetman
Posted: 25 January 2019 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 24006
500050005000500020002000
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-25 10:39 AM

I'm not interested in "isms" Dave, just practical solutions. Isms tend to get bogged down in their own dogma, and then come unstuck. Populism is said to be of the left or of the right, which simply means that people want solutions, but that their choice of solution depends on whether they see themselves in opposition to authority, or capital. It seems to me to offer facile, but easily understood, solutions to complex social and economic problems.

Both versions have yet to be tested in real world conditions. It wouldn't be unfair to characterise Chavez or Maduro as left wing populists, as they sold their supporters the idea of jam today, but failed to ensure the continuing supply of jam. It is too early to say how the right wing versions will work out in the USA, Hungary, or Poland. If sufficient people are dissatisfied with their lot, and someone offers them hope of better, many will support that person. That much is obvious. What is far less obvious is whether that person can, actually, deliver adequately to maintain the voluntary support of a majority of the whole population. It is also to be revealed whether either will resort to bribery or repression to maintain their grip if/when it begins to slip. IMO, Mugabe was initially a right wing populist who turned to bribery and then repression to maintain his regime.

There is no doubt that the established versions of politics are in difficulty, and need to change to arrest the inequalities they have allowed to develop. I don't think populism has the solutions, though it is good at highlighting the problem. It is the canary in the mine, but I don't think it can remove the firedamp. Time will tell.


It's time you accepted the EU is a massive mistake Brian, there was never a cat in hell's chance of merging 27 countries with different economies being a success ..........

It's time we went back to what we were promised in the beginning.......a Common Market ..........

userBarryd999
Posted: 25 January 2019 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


Forum master

Posts: 4708
20002000500100100
Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


pelmetman - 2019-01-25 10:57 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-01-25 10:39 AM

I'm not interested in "isms" Dave, just practical solutions. Isms tend to get bogged down in their own dogma, and then come unstuck. Populism is said to be of the left or of the right, which simply means that people want solutions, but that their choice of solution depends on whether they see themselves in opposition to authority, or capital. It seems to me to offer facile, but easily understood, solutions to complex social and economic problems.

Both versions have yet to be tested in real world conditions. It wouldn't be unfair to characterise Chavez or Maduro as left wing populists, as they sold their supporters the idea of jam today, but failed to ensure the continuing supply of jam. It is too early to say how the right wing versions will work out in the USA, Hungary, or Poland. If sufficient people are dissatisfied with their lot, and someone offers them hope of better, many will support that person. That much is obvious. What is far less obvious is whether that person can, actually, deliver adequately to maintain the voluntary support of a majority of the whole population. It is also to be revealed whether either will resort to bribery or repression to maintain their grip if/when it begins to slip. IMO, Mugabe was initially a right wing populist who turned to bribery and then repression to maintain his regime.

There is no doubt that the established versions of politics are in difficulty, and need to change to arrest the inequalities they have allowed to develop. I don't think populism has the solutions, though it is good at highlighting the problem. It is the canary in the mine, but I don't think it can remove the firedamp. Time will tell.


It's time you accepted the EU is a massive mistake Brian, there was never a cat in hell's chance of merging 27 countries with different economies being a success ..........

It's time we went back to what we were promised in the beginning.......a Common Market ..........



How the hell can you judge that its not been a success? Do you remember what much of Europe and the UK was like as recently as say the 70s? Can you not remember going to France, Italy, Spain etc? Parts of them would be described as third world countries by modern standards. You couldnt even drink the flipping water in most of them and had to take tablets with you to sterilise it. The UK was a basket case and in an even worse state economically. Now look at us all and the rest of Europe. Its a fantastic place and all this growth and development has happened during our and their membership of the EU. Working together on an economic basis, workers rights, environmental protection, single market, freedom of movement, digital single market. Despite its faults Europe is a fantastic place now, the envy of the world and Im proud to be part of that.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 25 January 2019 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-01-25 10:57 AM...………………….It's time you accepted the EU is a massive mistake Brian, there was never a cat in hell's chance of merging 27 countries with different economies being a success ..........
It's time we went back to what we were promised in the beginning.......a Common Market ..........

The EEC was what you call a "common market" when we joined. That common market grew from an Coal and Steel Community, founded in 1951 between France, Germany, Belgium, Luxemburg, Italy and the Netherlands. It morphed into the EEC, and it was always going to carry on morphing, as it has, into the EU. It will morph again.

It has gone where its members want it to go and UK, as a member since 1973 (before it became the EU) has played a role in its development. What you now have, is what we agreed to.

The countries have not "merged", though the majority adopted a common currency.

But, your version of a "common market" seems to be just a free trade area. How can free trade pass between countries with such differing economies in the absence of agreements as to how each should trade with the others? The clear danger is a race to the bottom. The danger of tariff-free trade is that the countries with the lowest land, energy, labour, health, education, welfare, transport etc costs compete unfairly with those with higher costs. One winner: multiple losers.

But who should draw up and maintain those rules - it needs some form of administration, does it not? With rules to level the playing field, and an administration to preserve and apply them, there is a need for a legal entity to settle disputes, to weed out the cheats.

Then do that between countries that have traditionally settled such disputes by war or invasion and, step by step, something like the EU would eventually have to emerge to resolve the political, economic, and social pressures that tariff-free trade brings. The thing about the EEC/EU is that it has continually changed, by agreement of its members, and will go on changing, by agreement of its members. What you have now is not what it will be in 10, 20, 50, etc. years time.

You notoriously don't trust the Germans (though I have no idea what they have done to you to earn such distrust!), so how would you feel about a free trade deal with Germany, in the absence of rules and an agreed authority to act as referee?

Your problem is that you believed what you were told in popular papers, and were reassured by a "electorate friendly" sounding translation of European Economic Community into "street speak". It was always more than a free trade area, it was always aimed at the economic integration of its members to foster mutual wealth and peace in Europe.
usermalc d
Posted: 25 January 2019 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 
Lord of the posts

Posts: 7368
500020001001001002525


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-25 12:49 PM



It has gone where its members want it to go and UK, as a member since 1973 (before it became the EU) has played a role in its development. What you now have, is what we agreed to.

.



Although I would go along with most of what you say Brian - I disagree with this bit.

The EU has gone where its' LEADERS wanted it to go - and too far, too fast.


IF they had been listening to their electorates there would be no Brexit and no Populism in Europe.

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 25 January 2019 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Well yes. but! We elected the leaders, so maybe we should just have shouted louder?
usermalc d
Posted: 25 January 2019 3:39 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 
Lord of the posts

Posts: 7368
500020001001001002525


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-25 3:22 PM

Well yes. but! We elected the leaders, so maybe we should just have shouted louder?




OR - more likely - our electoral system no longer adequately reflects the concerns of the electorate.

Good example being when nearly 4 million people "shouted loudly " and voted for UKIP - and they got no seats in Parliament.
( 2015 ? ).




Edited by malc d 2019-01-25 3:40 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 25 January 2019 6:16 PM
Subject: RE: New Franco-Germany Treaty
 


5000500050001000100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Yes, but! The two main parties seem to me to have "fixed" parliament through their control over any suggestion to change the voting system, which more or less guarantees one or the other gains a majority.

The LDP offered an alternative to this perpetual merry-go-round, but shot themselves in both feet - and several other parts of their anatomy - by entering a coalition with the Conservatives. Exit LDP stage left!

The best outcome would probably be for both Conservatives and Labour to split into their natural factions, with the Conservative right picking up the rump of UKIP, and the other lot forming something more akin to the European Christian Democrats (New Conservatives? ). The Labour party could re-name its right New Labour (or possibly not! ) and the old labour bit calling itself something like the New Socialists!

But (and this is the real "but" ), for that to work, both parties would have to agree to modify our first past the post electoral system in favour of some kind of proportional representation. Can't quite see why, but that reminds me of turkeys and Christmas!
Jump to page : FirstPrevious 1 2 Last
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Jump to forum :


(Delete all cookies set by this site)(Return to Homepage)

Any problems? Contact the administrator