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No Deal........


Guest pelmetman

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Barryd999 - 2018-09-20 6:41 PM

 

Good because Parliament will reject it and force a second referendum.

 

 

Rejection of any deal by parliament does not means another Neverendum.

Parliament has no power to impose a referendum unless parliament votes for a referendum.

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Tracker - 2018-09-20 7:33 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-09-20 6:41 PM

 

Good because Parliament will reject it and force a second referendum.

 

 

Rejection of any deal by parliament does not means another Neverendum.

Parliament has no power to impose a referendum unless parliament votes for a referendum.

 

Exactly. Bercrow himself could call for one! If any deal is rejected and / or we are faced with a no deal cliff edge it could well be what happens. May not be Theresa that calls it.

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I have limited legal and constitutional knowledge, but as we have already contractually signed and agreed to leave the EU maybe a second referendum, if it were a remain result, would mean the UK having to reapply to rejoin the EU in which case the terms of 'new' membership might well be as unacceptable as a no deal Brexit and there could be a delay whilst our application was 'processed' by the EU and we would in effect be out for a while and another Neverendum would be needed to stay out or rejoin?

 

Hopefully one of our resident experts will know, or if not, just guess?

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Tracker - 2018-09-20 11:20 PM

 

I have limited legal and constitutional knowledge, but as we have already contractually signed and agreed to leave the EU maybe a second referendum, if it were a remain result, would mean the UK having to reapply to rejoin the EU in which case the terms of 'new' membership might well be as unacceptable as a no deal Brexit and there could be a delay whilst our application was 'processed' by the EU and we would in effect be out for a while and another Neverendum would be needed to stay out or rejoin?

 

Hopefully one of our resident experts will know, or if not, just guess?

This bloke has a lot of legal experience, knows it's reversible, and explains how. He also knows what he's talking about as he wrote Article 50.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/11/i-wrote-article-50-and-i-know-government-can-reverse-brexit-if-it-wants

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/10/brexit-date-is-not-irreversible-says-man-who-wrote-article-50-lord-kerr

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I Dont think there is any question of it being objected to. As Bullet points out Lord Kerr who wrote it says its possible to revoke it, the EU have stated they would extend article 50 for either an election or a second referendum, The EU do not want us to leave and if Parliament decide thats what is happening everybody wants it so of course it could happen. I think its more chance of happening now the closer we get to no deal to be honest. There are no real experts though Rich as nobody has been in this position before but that seems to be the current opinion of most of the real expert Brexit nerds.
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<<< The EU do not want us to leave >>>

 

Hi Barry,

 

I have seen little evidence of that. What have they offered us to make us change our minds? Zilch!

 

What the EU wants, is to be SEEN to be not wanting us to leave. They want us to have a bad deal,"for the encouragement of the others" (which sounds better in French).

 

My understanding is that Parliament will be called to vote on whether to accept the DEAL ON OFFER, or not. NO DEAL.will be the default.

 

Another referendum? Looking at the (deliberate) chaos that has followed the last referendum ... which didn't go according to plan, I can't see any Government risking another. The Remoaners might shout about it. but if you were suddenly Prime Minister, you might have second thoughts. If you could play Fifth Columnist, wouldn't you worry that your oponents would do the same ... and maybe be better at it. And anyway, Joe Public seems not to want to go through it all again.

 

How many times have you complained about the Government not keeping their promises? And now you are complaining about a promise being kept.

 

602

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John52 - 2018-09-21 7:14 AM

 

W3526602 - 2018-09-21 6:36 AM

 

What have they offered us to make us change our minds?

 

602

 

Its about what they have NOT offered us.

The EU have not offered us what the Brexitremists promised and the public voted for.

Hi,

I don't think it will have anything to do with what the people want or voted for.If voting against a deal means the Tory MP's possibly losing power and them losing their cushy jobs then I think they will fold like a pack of cards. By the way Labour are only keeping their powder dry because they need to wait and see which way they will need to vote tactically. Not a principle between any of them imo.

cheers

derek

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Guest pelmetman
John52 - 2018-09-21 7:14 AM

 

W3526602 - 2018-09-21 6:36 AM

 

What have they offered us to make us change our minds?

 

602

 

Its about what they have NOT offered us.

The EU have not offered us what the Brexitremists promised and the public voted for.

 

The EU is going to deliver what we Brexiteers want by default with a bit of luck ;-) .........

 

A No Deal B-)..........

 

 

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Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM

 

I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum.

 

 

It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote.

 

As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case.

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Guest pelmetman
Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM

 

I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum.

 

 

How long does it take to organise a referendum? ;-) .............Less than a 189 days? :D ........

 

 

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derek pringle - 2018-09-21 9:03 AM

.If voting against a deal means the Tory MP's possibly losing power and them losing their cushy jobs

 

or a game of musical chairs where some lose their jobs, and Brextremists take their place by making promises they can't keep.

 

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pelmetman - 2018-09-21 12:15 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM

 

I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum.

 

 

How long does it take to organise a referendum? ;-) .............Less than a 189 days? :D ........

 

 

EU have said they would delay the process for a Referendum or General Election.

Since nobody will get what they voted for (as those who voted Brexit voted for a deal they can't have) I say Bring it On - and save the long-suffering taxpayer paying any more bungs to the DUP to vote Tory . >:-)

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Guest pelmetman
John52 - 2018-09-21 12:36 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-09-21 12:15 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM

 

I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum.

 

 

How long does it take to organise a referendum? ;-) .............Less than a 189 days? :D ........

 

 

EU have said they would delay the process for a Referendum or General Election.

Since nobody will get what they voted for (as those who voted Brexit voted for a deal they can't have) I say Bring it On - and save the long-suffering taxpayer paying any more bungs to the DUP to vote Tory . >:-)

 

...........and carry on paying billions in bungs to the EU instead *-) .........

 

 

 

 

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I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind.
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Guest pelmetman
Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM

 

I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind.

 

Which bit of........

 

Do you want to stay in the EU..........

 

Do you want to leave the EU........

 

Did you not understand? ;-) ..........

 

 

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Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM

 

I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind.

 

I agree.

The trouble with democracy is that it only works for some of the people for some of the time whereas the alternatives seem to work for even less of the people for even less of the time.

I don't think the principle of a referendum is wrong, but the decision to hold this one and the timing certainly was, as was the lack of public education by the Remainers who should have realised the chaos and uncertainty it would cause.

Nobody in authority seems to have realised the complications of unraveling 40 years worth of integration decisions or the resistance to the EU accepting our democratic decision not to remain in their gang, or if they did their voices were ignored by the media or drowned out in the clamour.

As a result we may well end up where we do not want to be and although I do see a bright long term future for the UK after Brexit I have always said that it won't come easy.

If the UK had not been in the EU and the referendum had been shall we join the EU, I would have voted NO as I don't believe that the UK needs others to hide amongst in order to thrive.

Perfect it ain't but is there a better way?

 

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pelmetman - 2018-09-21 2:55 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM

 

I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind.

 

Which bit of........

 

Do you want to stay in the EU..........

 

Do you want to leave the EU........

 

Did you not understand? ;-) ..........

 

You saw it a single question Dave and I respect the fact that you didn't care about the terms of the "divorce". I have friends and family members who agree with you. Nevertheless, I don't think you can argue that the referendum result represented a vote for a no deal Brexit.
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Tracker - 2018-09-21 12:10 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 11:55 AM

 

I think it likely that the EU negotiators are happiest with no deal too Dave in the hope that it would make it more likely that parliament will vote to hold a second referendum.

 

 

It has all the makings of a monumental cock up as a direct result of national disunity exacerbated by media paranoia and an opposition hell bent on not supporting the government and the democratic referendum vote.

 

As I have said all along the only way to negotiate successfully, especially with an entity like the EU, is from a position of strength and national unity presenting a consistently strong and unified case.

The 'national disunity' became apparent during the run up to the referendum which itself was a 'monumental cock up' and since the outcome result, has become even more crystal clear. How more divisive can you get with such a tiny miniscule percentage separating the two which not only split the country in half, but tore families apart?

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Tracker - 2018-09-21 2:55 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM

 

I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind.

 

I agree.

The trouble with democracy is that it only works for some of the people for some of the time whereas the alternatives seem to work for even less of the people for even less of the time.

I don't think the principle of a referendum is wrong, but the decision to hold this one and the timing certainly was, as was the lack of public education by the Remainers who should have realised the chaos and uncertainty it would cause.

Nobody in authority seems to have realised the complications of unraveling 40 years worth of integration decisions or the resistance to the EU accepting our democratic decision not to remain in their gang, or if they did their voices were ignored by the media or drowned out in the clamour.

As a result we may well end up where we do not want to be and although I do see a bright long term future for the UK after Brexit I have always said that it won't come easy.

If the UK had not been in the EU and the referendum had been shall we join the EU, I would have voted NO as I don't believe that the UK needs others to hide amongst in order to thrive.

Perfect it ain't but is there a better way?

 

The referendum was not called in the interests of the country.

The referendum was called in the interests of the Tory party - because Tories were defecting to UKIP, risking defeat for both in the first past the post election system.

Cameron obviously miscalculated for a number of reasons.

I don't think he foresaw the Tory press would support UKIP because its owners are worried about an EU wide tax treaty getting into HM Tax Havens so they have to pay tax.

Or that Osborne would shoot himself in the foot by saying leaving the EU would lead to a fall in house prices - which many voters (including myself) think would be a good thing if it was caused by easing restrictions on housing supply. Unfortunately leaving the EU is likely to cause a fall in house prices by causing a recession - including unemployment, inflation, negative equity, reposessions - and another banking crisis for the long-suffering tax payer to bail out again.

 

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Guest pelmetman
Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 3:34 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-09-21 2:55 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2018-09-21 1:55 PM

 

I have asked myself the question “in what circumstances can any referendum be considered democratic”. A philosophical question that I admit I am not learned enough to answer. My best effort is to assert that the result of a vote secured by way of a referendum is valid and in line with democratic principles when the electorate make an informed choice and that choice leads to a specific outcome. The EU referendum was nothing of the kind.

 

Which bit of........

 

Do you want to stay in the EU..........

 

Do you want to leave the EU........

 

Did you not understand? ;-) ..........

 

You saw it a single question Dave and I respect the fact that you didn't care about the terms of the "divorce". I have friends and family members who agree with you. Nevertheless, I don't think you can argue that the referendum result represented a vote for a no deal Brexit.

 

Did you vote Leave?......No.....so any divorce terms are irrelevant ;-) ...............

 

All you Remoaners are trying to do is force through another referendum vote..... because you think your UK backstabbing actions may have swung the vote in your favour *-) ........

 

If you were really concerned about democracy you'd be asking for the vote purely to be about accepting a the deal or leaving with a No deal.......But we all "know" that's not the question you Remoaners want asked is it? :-| ........

 

At least Mrs May is showing no signs of giving in to the Whinging Brigade B-) ...........

 

 

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