Obese because they are poor?

[StuartO]

There is a Guardian article about the causes of disproportionate obesity among poor people i developed countries which finishes with: "The message for the politicians is clear. There will be less obesity when people can afford to eat better – and more expensive – food. To do that they need to be better off." Full article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/09/poverty-causes-obesity-low-income-families-need-to-be-better-off-to-eat-well

 

The poor are not obese in developing countries, where increasing wealth is associated with increasing BMI. But in the US and UK, obesity has increased markedly among the less well off over the past generation or so, even though the less well off are regarded as relatively poor - and deprived.

 

I wonder if the author is ignoring the possibility that the poor are continuing to be poor because they are low achievers and/or are lazy and stupid, and thereby, prone to gain weight for those reasons rather than because they are too poor to be unable to afford food.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Blimey Stuart 8-) ..........

 

You're gonna have the Chatterbox LLLLB hate squad after you telling for telling the truth :D ........

 

 

[jumpstart]

Obesity is a mathematical problem. If you eat more calories than you expend then you get fat. Those shy of exercise tend to be the ones to put on weight.

[John52]

I thoughht the Giardian article was clear enough, but for the benefit of the OP I suppose its necessary to explain that 'poor' is a relative term.

 

Whilst not so poor as to be unable to access cheap food, obese people tend to be poor compared to the rest of the population.

 

But there are exceptions, like BoJo, whose Tutors at Eton described as 'idle and complacent' - so nothing changed there then.

 

We are seeing the greatest inequality since Victorian times, which continue to increase as the Government reduces income tax and and leaves tax loopholes for the rich Tory supporting 'newspaper' owner £billionaires, whilst introducing new stealth taxes for the poor.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2020-08-10 9:22 AM

 

I thoughht the Giardian article was clear enough, but for the benefit of the OP I suppose its necessary to explain that 'poor' is a relative term.

 

Whilst not so poor as to be unable to access cheap food, obese people tend to be poor compared to the rest of the population.

 

But there are exceptions, like BoJo, whose Tutors at Eton described as 'idle and complacent' - so nothing changed there then.

 

We are seeing the greatest inequality since Victorian times, which continue to increase as the Government reduces income tax and and leaves tax loopholes for the rich Tory supporting 'newspaper' owner £billionaires, whilst introducing new stealth taxes for the poor.

 

If I ate junk food everday ;-) ...........

 

I doubt I could afford my wine bill 8-) ..........

 

 

[John52]

pelmetman - 2020-08-10 9:27 AM

 

John52 - 2020-08-10 9:22 AM

 

I thoughht the Giardian article was clear enough, but for the benefit of the OP I suppose its necessary to explain that 'poor' is a relative term.

 

Whilst not so poor as to be unable to access cheap food, obese people tend to be poor compared to the rest of the population.

 

But there are exceptions, like BoJo, whose Tutors at Eton described as 'idle and complacent' - so nothing changed there then.

 

We are seeing the greatest inequality since Victorian times, which continue to increase as the Government reduces income tax and and leaves tax loopholes for the rich Tory supporting 'newspaper' owner £billionaires, whilst introducing new stealth taxes for the poor.

 

If I ate junk food everday ;-) ...........

 

I doubt I could afford my wine bill 8-) ..........

 

 

You can get healthy food cheap - if you have easy access to a supermarket that sells it, facilities and time to prepare, cook and store it in freezer, fridge etc.

[StuartO]

John52 - 2020-08-10 9:39 AM You can get healthy food cheap - if you have easy access to a supermarket that sells it, facilities and time to prepare, cook and store it in freezer, fridge etc.

 

I appreciate that some relatively poor people might have difficulty accessing the easy or ideal source of cheap healthy food and they might also lack the opportuity to grow anything themselves and some may really struggle to get employment so they end up stuck on benefits and have to settle for poor housing - but does deprivation of opportunity of that sort that necessarily mean they have to get fat?

[pepe63xnotuse]

Unfortunately we are at a stage where food, indeed the concept of "mealtimes" as a whole, is just undervalued, and then add to that a lot of people who have convinced themselves that they do not have the time to prepare "proper" food....

 

TV ads are constantly pushing the likes Deliveroo/Just Eat etc apps, so that the supposedly "too busy" people can order their McDonalds/KFC (other such cr*p is available) whilst sat watching Netflix!

 

(these ads usually show a social group of happy, healthy, attractive types..they never show grossly overweight slob-types, slumped on the sofa, with food stains down their stretch pants!) :-S

[StuartO]

pepe63 - 2020-08-10 12:03 PM

 

Unfortunately we are at a stage where food, indeed the concept of "mealtimes" as a whole, is just undervalued, and then add to that a lot of people who have convinced themselves that they do not have the time to prepare "proper" food....

 

TV ads are constantly pushing the likes Deliveroo/Just Eat etc apps, so that the supposedly "too busy" people can order their McDonalds/KFC (other such cr*p is available) whilst sat watching Netflix!

 

(these ads usually show a social group of happy, healthy, attractive types..they never show grossly overweight slob-types, slumped on the sofa, with food stains down their stretch pants!) :-S

 

Not quite sure what your point is Pepe63. Clearly advertising can inluence behaviour and choice but how is that relevant to poor people getting fat, despite being relatively poor.

[pepe63xnotuse]

StuartO - 2020-08-10 1:36 PM

 

pepe63 - 2020-08-10 12:03 PM

 

Unfortunately we are at a stage where food, indeed the concept of "mealtimes" as a whole, is just undervalued, and then add to that a lot of people who have convinced themselves that they do not have the time to prepare "proper" food....

 

TV ads are constantly pushing the likes Deliveroo/Just Eat etc apps, so that the supposedly "too busy" people can order their McDonalds/KFC (other such cr*p is available) whilst sat watching Netflix!

 

(these ads usually show a social group of happy, healthy, attractive types..they never show grossly overweight slob-types, slumped on the sofa, with food stains down their stretch pants!) :-S

 

Not quite sure what your point is Pepe63. Clearly advertising can inluence behaviour and choice but how is that relevant to poor people getting fat, despite being relatively poor.

 

I suppose I was just reiterating your "lazy" reference up-thread, in that for those that way inclined, it is "easier" to eat unhealthily - "junk food" and/or ordering take-aways over an app.

 

I don't think that being "financially poor " is a catch-all excuse.

(I can see how being "time-poor" can have an influence but some of that could be addressed by better household planning?).

In my view, too many people spend their money on "one-shot" meals, instead of buying the ingredients that can make many.

 

(I've always found that veg' is relatively inexpensive.. ;-) )

[jumpstart]

StuartO - 2020-08-10 1:36 PM

 

pepe63 - 2020-08-10 12:03 PM

 

Unfortunately we are at a stage where food, indeed the concept of "mealtimes" as a whole, is just undervalued, and then add to that a lot of people who have convinced themselves that they do not have the time to prepare "proper" food....

 

TV ads are constantly pushing the likes Deliveroo/Just Eat etc apps, so that the supposedly "too busy" people can order their McDonalds/KFC (other such cr*p is available) whilst sat watching Netflix!

 

(these ads usually show a social group of happy, healthy, attractive types..they never show grossly overweight slob-types, slumped on the sofa, with food stains down their stretch pants!) :-S

 

Not quite sure what your point is Pepe63. Clearly advertising can inluence behaviour and choice but how is that relevant to poor people getting fat, despite being relatively poor.

 

It’s a bit too easy to just say poor people get fat. Plenty of well off get fat too. It’s not too difficult to eat healthily without spending a fortune, but lazy people tend to make poor choices,excess salt and sugar and are more likely not to exercise.

[Brian Kirby]

There are observable relationships between ability, education, genetic inheritance, parental competences, employment, and wealth.

 

Most are complicated by feed-back loops, so that individuals with disadvantages in one of the above areas can gain compensation from another. For example, someone born with modest ability (as measured by IQ) can have their ability improved by parental competence and/or education. The longer on average they remain in education, the greater the advantage in terms of improved IQ. A "bright" child may have their IQ prejudiced by incompetent parenting, or poor, or truncated, education.

 

It is the cumulation of all these factors that generate the eventual adult. It is the eventual adult who seeks, and hopefully gains, employment (in the broadest sense, not the narrow sense of merely being "an employee"), and it is their choice of employment, in terms of its potential for betterment, that determines how relatively "well off" the individual will be in adult life - plus, if they are lucky, any wealth they inherit - and possibly when they inherit it.

 

There is an observable relationship between obesity and poverty, in that there is a higher proportion of obese people among the poorest, than in other income groups. This seems unlikely to be a simple linear relationship: the poorer the person, the fatter they become.

 

But it does seem that there is a relationship between the ability and educational attainments of the person and their income level, so that those of lower ability and lower education as adults have the greater propensity to end up among the relatively impoverished, and vice versa.

 

So given that, it is perhaps understandable if the less able and less well educated poor have difficulty processing the information about preparing and cooking healthy food, and gravitate to what appears to them cheap and easy to put on a plate. After all, they are likely to have to work harder/longer to earn the price of their meal, than others, so are also likely to be time, as well as income, poor.

 

But, having said all of that, all one is really advising is to exercise great care in choosing one's parents! :-D

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-08-10 5:03 PM .....There is an observable relationship between obesity and poverty, in that there is a higher proportion of obese people among the poorest, than in other income groups. This seems unlikely to be a simple linear relationship: the poorer the person, the fatter they become........

 

But, having said all of that, all one is really advising is to exercise great care in choosing one's parents! :-D

 

Where did you get that relationship from Brian? Presumably you are commenting on developed countries only. It was the marked difference between complete lack of obesity in poor people in under-developed countries and the prevelance of it in developed countries which the writer was highlighting - shown in recent research. There was no suggestion that the poorest were the most obese.

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-08-10 5:31 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-08-10 5:03 PM .....There is an observable relationship between obesity and poverty, in that there is a higher proportion of obese people among the poorest, than in other income groups. This seems unlikely to be a simple linear relationship: the poorer the person, the fatter they become........

 

But, having said all of that, all one is really advising is to exercise great care in choosing one's parents! :-D

 

Where did you get that relationship from Brian? Presumably you are commenting on developed countries only. It was the marked difference between complete lack of obesity in poor people in under-developed countries and the prevelance of it in developed countries which the writer was highlighting - shown in recent research. There was no suggestion that the poorest were the most obese.

Your OP refers to the obese poor being in developed countries, so I responded on that basis. I think all the research from which I drew the various factors and their feed-back-loops also relates to experiences in developed countries.

 

The conclusion for under developed countries seems to be that their poor are not, in general, obese - quite the opposite, in fact.

[jumpstart]

You only need to go to Disney world or land in the US to see obesity in the well off. The “poor” certainly can’t afford the tickets.

[Bulletguy]

jumpstart - 2020-08-10 7:17 PM

 

You only need to go to Disney world or land in the US to see obesity in the well off. The “poor” certainly can’t afford the tickets.

A relative of mine lived and worked in Texas for years and though a big chap himself who likes his food, even he was staggered by the crazy portions they dish out, from burger joints to restaurants.

 

[Guest pelmetman]

pelmetman - 2020-08-09 1:17 PM

 

Blimey Stuart 8-) ..........

 

You're gonna have the Chatterbox LLLLB hate squad after you telling for telling the truth :D ........

 

 

Told you so :D .........

 

 

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2020-08-10 5:39 PM Your OP refers to the obese poor being in developed countries, so I responded on that basis. I think all the research from which I drew the various factors and their feed-back-loops also relates to experiences in developed countries.....

 

I get suspicious (that the research doesn't actualy exist) when people refer to "all the research" without citing it properly. You seem to have found quite a lot of stuff Brian. Could you provide links or other citations for it please?

[Brian Kirby]

StuartO - 2020-08-11 7:25 AM

Brian Kirby - 2020-08-10 5:39 PM Your OP refers to the obese poor being in developed countries, so I responded on that basis. I think all the research from which I drew the various factors and their feed-back-loops also relates to experiences in developed countries.....

I get suspicious (that the research doesn't actualy exist) when people refer to "all the research" without citing it properly. You seem to have found quite a lot of stuff Brian. Could you provide links or other citations for it please?

Afraid not. I ran a series of "Google" searches such as "ability linked to education", "ability linked to genetic inheritance", "employment linked to ability" etc. etc.

 

These produced a mix of responses, so I picked out those that seemed reliable, such as academic papers etc (some of which were very long on statistics!), and summarised them as in my post above.

 

What I was calling the feedback loops were in the majority of the papers, emphasising that whatever the "nature" part of our inheritance, the "nurture" portion (in terms of parental influence, quality and duration of education, family wealth or absence of), all influence the way in which the initial genetic inheritance develops.

 

The less able child who has good parenting and a good education, followed to higher level, can improve their IQ markedly, and similarly, the naturally bright child can be "switched off" by negative experiences and poor or truncated education.

 

This obviously depends on degree: a very low IQ is extremely unlikely to become a genius, and a very high IQ is unlikely to be reduced to a virtual idiot. All it seemed to me to show was that the routes by which people end up impoverished are not inevitably pre-ordained at birth, and that although the relationship between poverty and obesity is observable, establishing which is cause, and which effect, and to what degree, is far less straightforward.

 

As I said, the best (though rather obvious) start in life is to have good parents, plus a good education which is continued beyond school leaving age.

[malc d]

Makes me wonder how rich people manage to get fat.

 

 

:-|

[Bulletguy]

malc d - 2020-08-11 4:27 PM

 

Makes me wonder how rich people manage to get fat.

 

 

:-|

High living comes very easy for 'high achievers'. ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

malc d - 2020-08-11 4:27 PM

Makes me wonder how rich people manage to get fat. :-|

The same way any other person gets fat, by ingesting more calories than their bodies consume! :-) In the case of the rich, it seem likely that the calories are from a rich high calorie diet, whereas for the poor the calories are more likely to come from carbohydrates and sugar.

[malc d]

Brian Kirby - 2020-08-11 5:09 PM

 

malc d - 2020-08-11 4:27 PM

Makes me wonder how rich people manage to get fat. :-|

 

 

 

The same way any other person gets fat, by ingesting more calories than their bodies consume! :-) .

 

 

 

Precisely.

 

i.e. So, poor people get fat the same way that rich people get fat.

 

( Except, of course, those who have the genes which cause the problem ).

 

;-)

[Brian Kirby]

malc d - 2020-08-11 5:19 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-08-11 5:09 PM

malc d - 2020-08-11 4:27 PM

Makes me wonder how rich people manage to get fat. :-|

The same way any other person gets fat, by ingesting more calories than their bodies consume! :-) .

Precisely.

i.e. So, poor people get fat the same way that rich people get fat.

( Except, of course, those who have the genes which cause the problem ). ;-)

Exception accepted! :-) The thing is, do they all know where the calories really are?

[jumpstart]

They are talking about putting the calories on alcohol, don’t think that will make a blind bit of difference. It’s a choice think , ether you care about your body or you don’t.