Birdbrain Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I'll do whatever it takes to stop Brexit ... https://news.sky.com/story/jo-swinson-elected-new-liberal-democrat-leader-11768359 ... Take it that means ignoring all 17 million plus winners of the referendum then ... Dear oh dear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Ahhh thats nice. I wanted her to win. Another woman PM perhaps in the very near future hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-07-22 6:52 PM I'll do whatever it takes to stop Brexit ... https://news.sky.com/story/jo-swinson-elected-new-liberal-democrat-leader-11768359 ... Take it that means ignoring all 17 million plus winners of the referendum then ... Dear oh dear So the Lib Dems no longer believe in democracy 8-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-07-23 9:10 AM Birdbrain - 2019-07-22 6:52 PM I'll do whatever it takes to stop Brexit ... https://news.sky.com/story/jo-swinson-elected-new-liberal-democrat-leader-11768359 ... Take it that means ignoring all 17 million plus winners of the referendum then ... Dear oh dear So the Lib Dems no longer believe in democracy 8-) ......... But why assume the LDs would do this undemocratically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-23 6:23 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-23 9:10 AM Birdbrain - 2019-07-22 6:52 PM I'll do whatever it takes to stop Brexit ... https://news.sky.com/story/jo-swinson-elected-new-liberal-democrat-leader-11768359 ... Take it that means ignoring all 17 million plus winners of the referendum then ... Dear oh dear So the Lib Dems no longer believe in democracy 8-) ......... But why assume the LDs would do this undemocratically? Bol%x to brexit kinda suggests just that Brian ... Maybe I am just reading too much into Bol%x to Brexit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-07-23 7:45 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-23 6:23 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-23 9:10 AM Birdbrain - 2019-07-22 6:52 PM I'll do whatever it takes to stop Brexit ... https://news.sky.com/story/jo-swinson-elected-new-liberal-democrat-leader-11768359 ... Take it that means ignoring all 17 million plus winners of the referendum then ... Dear oh dear So the Lib Dems no longer believe in democracy 8-) ......... But why assume the LDs would do this undemocratically? Bol%x to brexit kinda suggests just that Brian ... Maybe I am just reading too much into Bol%x to Brexit That just means they are telling people that Brexit is a load of Bollox. Thats not undemocratic, its just an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-23 8:26 PM Birdbrain - 2019-07-23 7:45 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-23 6:23 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-23 9:10 AM Birdbrain - 2019-07-22 6:52 PM I'll do whatever it takes to stop Brexit ... https://news.sky.com/story/jo-swinson-elected-new-liberal-democrat-leader-11768359 ... Take it that means ignoring all 17 million plus winners of the referendum then ... Dear oh dear So the Lib Dems no longer believe in democracy 8-) ......... But why assume the LDs would do this undemocratically? Bol%x to brexit kinda suggests just that Brian ... Maybe I am just reading too much into Bol%x to Brexit That just means they are telling people that Brexit is a load of Bollox. Thats not undemocratic, its just an opinion. Thats fine then princess ... Does "I'll do WHATEVER it takes to stop Brexit" count as just an opinion then ??? ... Cos young Miss Jo sounded pretty definite in her election speech ... "whatever it takes" eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-07-23 8:45 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-23 8:26 PM Birdbrain - 2019-07-23 7:45 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-23 6:23 PM pelmetman - 2019-07-23 9:10 AM Birdbrain - 2019-07-22 6:52 PM I'll do whatever it takes to stop Brexit ... https://news.sky.com/story/jo-swinson-elected-new-liberal-democrat-leader-11768359 ... Take it that means ignoring all 17 million plus winners of the referendum then ... Dear oh dear So the Lib Dems no longer believe in democracy 8-) ......... But why assume the LDs would do this undemocratically? Bol%x to brexit kinda suggests just that Brian ... Maybe I am just reading too much into Bol%x to Brexit That just means they are telling people that Brexit is a load of Bollox. Thats not undemocratic, its just an opinion. Thats fine then princess ... Does "I'll do WHATEVER it takes to stop Brexit" count as just an opinion then ??? ... Cos young Miss Jo sounded pretty definite in her election speech ... "whatever it takes" eh Well at least the Libdem position is clear. If they get into power then I guess we can assume that is a public mandate to stop Brexit / hold a second ref. There is no clarity from the other two main parties is there? Tories promised us a deal. "Nobody wants no deal" was the mantra "Easiest deal in history" they told us etc etc et fecking cetera. labour. Nobody even now really knows where they stand. Democratically as we were always promised a deal the only way we can democratically leave without another vote is if "the deal" is signed off. Anything else has to go back to the people, certainly leaving with no deal does as there is nowhere near a majority for it and its not what people voted for or what they were promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-24 8:54 AM Well at least the Libdem position is clear. It certainly is ;-) ..........."Ignore the democratic will of the people" *-) ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I see the leader of the Green party would also ignore a leave vote win if there was another vote *-) ........ Remoaners obviously prefer hypocrisy over democracy >:-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 12:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Yes ... but would you be able to understand it? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-07-24 1:03 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 12:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Agreed. So would I. It seems the Brexiteers wanted Parliament to take back control but only if they agree with them. The entire referendum was floored as it was a binary choice for a none binary outcome. Clearly it always warranted a final public say on the outcome once the negotiations were complete. Ironically this is exactly what Jacob Rees Mogg and John Redwood declared when they were campaigning for a referendum in the first place. They are not saying it now though oddly. It is indeed an MP's job to do what is in the countries interest, not what Brenda from Bristol or FunnyJohn says. With that in mind I am surprised Brexit wasnt binned two years ago. Nobody who understands it really believes its going to be great for Britain. Most of the politicians are batting for their parties and their jobs now but hats off to the ones that are still willing to expose the emperors clothes for what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 1:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! In my experience the ones doing the most ranting, foot stamping and name calling are some of the most fervent Remainers on this site. Anyone who disagrees with Bulletguy and Barry999 are idiots and fools. Only they have the answers, despite there being many economists, academics and businessmen who sincerely believe that Brexit will be best for this country's long term grown and its independence. I have in the last few weeks posted links from such people who support Brexit, and this one from others, who think that we could be in for a huge bill if the Eurozone should face a financial crisis. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/07/06/britain-could-face-200bn-eu-bail-out-bill-unless-clean-brexit/ Bulletguy's response to this link was to brand them all a load of greedy 'disaster capitalists'. That's the kind of debate that we get from him. I asked him if he really considered that the Alliance of British Entrepreneurs, Artists for Brexit and Farmers for Britain, as well as Labour Leave and Green Leaves constitute 'disaster capitalists. He didn't respond. As for you, I haven't the faintest interest in changing your mind or in changing the minds of the others I mention. I told Bulletguy that it was all bit pointless as no one is going to change any minds. Instead of accepting with good grace that I genuinely believed that trying to change each others mind really was pointless his response was to accuse me of being a coward and shying away from any debate. So as I said, please believe your sincerely held views on Brexit but please, let me, and many others, believe ours. But to get to the crux of my post. Jo Swinton is a hypocrite. She is campaigning for a second referendum but has also said that if it doesn't go her way that she will ignore it. Democracy? Please, don't let her talk to me about democracy. Democracy is first and foremost about obeying the will of the people. What is the point of giving the people a choice and then telling them that their decision doesn't matter? I've just watched Boris Johnson's speech from outside Number Ten and he said that ultimately it is the people who are in charge and not the politicians. As far as Swinson and many Remainers are concerned the people are only in charge if they vote the way that they want them too. Let me ask you a question. If there was a second referendum and once more the people voted to leave what would you do? Would you still be of the opinion that a majority of MPs who don't like the verdict should still refuse to implement it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 12:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! Thats not democracy , thats your opinion thats all and to be fair I dont think anyone cares or gives a stuff about trying to alter your opinion either Brian ... The thread started on how our now opposition party are going against not one vote but two if it went the way they dont like it ... How on earth is that MPs serving the majority ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-07-24 4:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-07-24 1:03 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 12:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Agreed. So would I. It seems the Brexiteers wanted Parliament to take back control but only if they agree with them. The entire referendum was floored as it was a binary choice for a none binary outcome. Clearly it always warranted a final public say on the outcome once the negotiations were complete. Ironically this is exactly what Jacob Rees Mogg and John Redwood declared when they were campaigning for a referendum in the first place. They are not saying it now though oddly. It is indeed an MP's job to do what is in the countries interest, not what Brenda from Bristol or FunnyJohn says. With that in mind I am surprised Brexit wasnt binned two years ago. Nobody who understands it really believes its going to be great for Britain. Most of the politicians are batting for their parties and their jobs now but hats off to the ones that are still willing to expose the emperors clothes for what they are. Just heard his speech and within seconds he'd insulted those who voted Remain. Great way to go about uniting a country eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-07-24 5:59 PM Barryd999 - 2019-07-24 4:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-07-24 1:03 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 12:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Agreed. So would I. It seems the Brexiteers wanted Parliament to take back control but only if they agree with them. The entire referendum was floored as it was a binary choice for a none binary outcome. Clearly it always warranted a final public say on the outcome once the negotiations were complete. Ironically this is exactly what Jacob Rees Mogg and John Redwood declared when they were campaigning for a referendum in the first place. They are not saying it now though oddly. It is indeed an MP's job to do what is in the countries interest, not what Brenda from Bristol or FunnyJohn says. With that in mind I am surprised Brexit wasnt binned two years ago. Nobody who understands it really believes its going to be great for Britain. Most of the politicians are batting for their parties and their jobs now but hats off to the ones that are still willing to expose the emperors clothes for what they are. Just heard his speech and within seconds he'd insulted those who voted Remain. Great way to go about uniting a country eh? Eh ??? ... Mind given your offended permanently thats hardly surprising ... Boris doesnt give a stuff about uniting the country , he wants Brexit and knows delivering Brexit is his base not you wet whinging drip remoaners ... Move out if ya dont like our brave new world ... Move to London and introduce yaself to the family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 747 - 2019-07-24 2:47 PM Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Yes ... but would you be able to understand it? :-D Well, I hope that you understood my reply! But let me expand on it. I firmly believe in our representative democracy, so when we have a general election we elect MPs to act on our behalf. However remainers can't seem to grasp the difference between a general election and a single-issue referendum. If parliament decides to allow us to have a referendum on an issue, it has abrogated its responsibility as a representative democracy and firmly placed the decision in the hands of the people. If they then decide to ignore the result what was the point of giving us a referendum in the first place? Switzerland holds referendums every year and the result of those referendums is binding. Now that's true democracy and it's what should happen here with a referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 7:03 PM 747 - 2019-07-24 2:47 PM Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Yes ... but would you be able to understand it? :-D Well, I hope that you understood my reply! But let me expand on it. I firmly believe in our representative democracy, so when we have a general election we elect MPs to act on our behalf. However remainers can't seem to grasp the difference between a general election and a single-issue referendum. Oh very much. A GE is once every five years enabling opposition time to put their case forward in the hope of winning the election come the next GE. The non-binding advisory referendum is to change peoples lives forever and where you think for the best, almost half the country didn't agree with you, and Brexit itself has changed that much post referendum, none of you are getting the one you voted for yet you're still determined to continue. If parliament decides to allow us to have a referendum on an issue, it has abrogated its responsibility as a representative democracy and firmly placed the decision in the hands of the people. If they then decide to ignore the result what was the point of giving us a referendum in the first place? Far much more has become clearer post ref. That needs closer examination and questioning.....are you really sure this is what you want? After all, remember even your new PM was so unsure he drafted a pro-Remain article. Switzerland holds referendums every year and the result of those referendums is binding. Now that's true democracy and it's what should happen here with a referendum. They are experts are referendums.......the Swiss have learned, sometimes the hard way, what works and what does not. After all they recently voted to increase their taxes, rob themselves of an extra week of paid holiday and against a mandatory minimum wage. This is the Swiss view on Brexit. https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/take-it-from-the-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-07-24 5:59 PM Just heard his speech and within seconds he'd insulted those who voted Remain. Great way to go about uniting a country eh? You Losers have spent 3 years insulting us Brexiteers ;-) .......... Paybacks a bitch init? :D ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunsterJohn Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-07-24 9:05 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 7:03 PM 747 - 2019-07-24 2:47 PM Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Yes ... but would you be able to understand it? :-D Well, I hope that you understood my reply! But let me expand on it. I firmly believe in our representative democracy, so when we have a general election we elect MPs to act on our behalf. However remainers can't seem to grasp the difference between a general election and a single-issue referendum. Oh very much. A GE is once every five years enabling opposition time to put their case forward in the hope of winning the election come the next GE. The non-binding advisory referendum is to change peoples lives forever and where you think for the best, almost half the country didn't agree with you, and Brexit itself has changed that much post referendum, none of you are getting the one you voted for yet you're still determined to continue. If parliament decides to allow us to have a referendum on an issue, it has abrogated its responsibility as a representative democracy and firmly placed the decision in the hands of the people. If they then decide to ignore the result what was the point of giving us a referendum in the first place? Far much more has become clearer post ref. That needs closer examination and questioning.....are you really sure this is what you want? After all, remember even your new PM was so unsure he drafted a pro-Remain article. Switzerland holds referendums every year and the result of those referendums is binding. Now that's true democracy and it's what should happen here with a referendum. They are experts are referendums.......the Swiss have learned, sometimes the hard way, what works and what does not. After all they recently voted to increase their taxes, rob themselves of an extra week of paid holiday and against a mandatory minimum wage. This is the Swiss view on Brexit. https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/take-it-from-the-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate Two points - first of all you claim that 'this is the Swiss view on Brexit'. The clear implication is that the article is about the Swiss people or government specifically commenting on Brexit. Where in the article does it say that? Have I missed it? As far as I can see it's an opinion piece by one man and in no way represents the view that the Swiss government thinks that Brexit should be re-run. As I said, if I missed it I'll apologise now but I suspect that it's you up to your usual trick of presenting opinion as fact and being very economical with the truth. Secondly, forget all the mealy-mouthed waffle and just admit that if remain had won by half a percent you'd be shouting down anyone who had the temerity to suggest that the people needed more information and that perhaps we should have another vote to be really sure what the country wants. When the government abrogates its responsibility for a major decision and gives that responsibility to the people it should accept the decision of the people. And for Swinson to campaign for a second referendum and in the next breath tell us that she has no intention of respecting the decision if it goes against her is absolutely disgraceful. Some remainers are like rabid indoctrinated fundamentalists and have no shame whatsoever. You'll twist and turn and obfuscate rather than admit that you lost fairly and squarely. Well, we're leaving the EU. Get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 9:24 PM Bulletguy - 2019-07-24 9:05 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 7:03 PM 747 - 2019-07-24 2:47 PM Well said Brian, excellent..........and i for one will be interested at the reply you receive. ;-) Yes ... but would you be able to understand it? :-D Well, I hope that you understood my reply! But let me expand on it. I firmly believe in our representative democracy, so when we have a general election we elect MPs to act on our behalf. However remainers can't seem to grasp the difference between a general election and a single-issue referendum. Oh very much. A GE is once every five years enabling opposition time to put their case forward in the hope of winning the election come the next GE. The non-binding advisory referendum is to change peoples lives forever and where you think for the best, almost half the country didn't agree with you, and Brexit itself has changed that much post referendum, none of you are getting the one you voted for yet you're still determined to continue. If parliament decides to allow us to have a referendum on an issue, it has abrogated its responsibility as a representative democracy and firmly placed the decision in the hands of the people. If they then decide to ignore the result what was the point of giving us a referendum in the first place? Far much more has become clearer post ref. That needs closer examination and questioning.....are you really sure this is what you want? After all, remember even your new PM was so unsure he drafted a pro-Remain article. Switzerland holds referendums every year and the result of those referendums is binding. Now that's true democracy and it's what should happen here with a referendum. They are experts are referendums.......the Swiss have learned, sometimes the hard way, what works and what does not. After all they recently voted to increase their taxes, rob themselves of an extra week of paid holiday and against a mandatory minimum wage. This is the Swiss view on Brexit. https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/take-it-from-the-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate Two points - first of all you claim that 'this is the Swiss view on Brexit'. *-) Oh yeah i forgot......you're the self elected pedant police. Anyone else could easily figure it just from the article alone but you spot a chance to have a snarky snipe. This is a view from A Swiss on Brexit. Happy now? Fwiw he's possibly Dutch anyway as 1) not a typical Swiss christian or surname and 2) holds Dutch/Belgium dual nationality. Marnix Amand wrote the article (his name is on it). He was professor of Economics at the University of Lausanne before joining Yale where he lectures in global affairs, macroeconomics and the economics of EU As far as I can see it's an opinion piece by one man and in no way represents the view that the Swiss government thinks that Brexit should be re-run. Can't see anywhere i said anything about the Swiss gov.....feel free to point it out in my post but it appears that's what you've written and concluded......not me. Did you even bother to read through that article? It's not as you may have imagined all pro-Remainy.......but neither is it totally favourable to 'your side' so you might prefer not to read and cast it aside with your usual disdain. It's a pity you haven't as it's a well written thought provoking article raising some interesting points. . Secondly, forget all the mealy-mouthed waffle and just admit that if remain had won by half a percent you'd be shouting down anyone who had the temerity to suggest that the people needed more information and that perhaps we should have another vote to be really sure what the country wants. Obviously hadn't studied my postings enough as you'd know the answer to that if you had. I've openly said many times on this forum the miniscule percentage of 3.78% between the two, even had i voted Brexit i would not feel comfortable with that at all. Way way too narrow a margin for anyone to be comfortable with even had it been the reverse, as you suggested with a Remain win by the same tiny % margin, on the eve of the referendum prompted Farage to say “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.” He also said he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin. Well we all know that was quickly hushed up and swept under the carpet in the hope it would be forgotten about. So it's more than ironic here you are now pilloring Swinson for daring to campaign for the very same thing Farage said he would.....which you'd apparently forgot about, but that would have been perfectly ok with you as Farage is a Brexiteer. Easy to see where this has been going the past three years when you take things like that into consideration isn't it? And as for "some remainers are like rabid indoctrinated fundamentalists and have no shame whatsoever"...we've been seeing that "rabid fundamentalism" you speak of from (some) Brexiteers who've turned it more into a cult than anything. Determined to shut down any opposing opinion and hurling out snide insults at any that dare hold an opinion. That's not democracy....thats a dictatorship veering toward totalitarianism which is a sorry state of affairs. We've done all the silly "you lot lost, get over it" "Brexit means Brexit" (even many Brexiters seem at a loss to explain that one), "taking back control of our borders" (so shift out of France)..."we want our country back" (where did it go to?). All these batty soundbites are so yesterday and it's about time you thought up some new ones. Remainers will always continue to carry on making their case for staying with the EU no matter how you try to shut them down......but should the day come where UK, or whats left of it, is dragged out of the EU, that's when all Brexiters will be held to account on everything....no if's, no buts, no more blaming EU etc. Those convenient comforts you've had to blame your woes on the past three years won't be there...and the car crash clusterfcuk (already begun) will be down to your lot. It will be interesting to see just how many of you, and which ones, have the balls to stand up and say, "yep, we screwed up big time in voting to leave the EU". I suspect not one of you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-07-24 5:50 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-07-24 12:40 PM FunsterJohn - 2019-07-24 10:10 AM Jo Swinson has just said that if there was a second referendum and the country still voted to leave, that she will ignore it and still vote against leaving. Democrat? Liberal? Controlling and illiberal fascist more like. Who cares what the people want? 'I'm a Liberal, I know better than those working class oiks.' Some remainers have the fanaticism only normally displayed by the worst kind of religious nutcases. John, voting is the essence of democracy. On the information available to date, I am convinced that Brexit, in any form, would be damaging to our economy, and that a no deal Brexit would do the greatest damage. All government, and independent, analysis says this. No-one has yet produced equally convincing evidence, of equivalent weight, to the contrary. I shall therefore continue to vote against Brexit for as long as that possibility remains. That is my democratic right. It has nothing to do with class, or name calling, or what other people think - it has only to do with me, and what I think. It is my judgement, based on available information. If you want me to change my mind to your way of thinking (and to similarly change the minds of others who think as I do), how about you and those who favour leaving the EU setting out your stall, with sound information that supports your case, instead of ranting, foot stamping, and name calling? You may then persuade some to your case. That, as I understand democracy, is how it is supposed to work, is it not? In a representative democracy, an MP's first duty is to act in the best interests of their country. If an MP judges that the public will is counter to the best interests of the country, that duty does not change. In our democracy Parliament has the final say, and parliament decides on the basis of the collective votes of our 650 or so MPs. The day they are unanimous on anything will probably be the day democracy dies! Thats not democracy , thats your opinion thats all and to be fair I dont think anyone cares or gives a stuff about trying to alter your opinion either Brian ... The thread started on how our now opposition party are going against not one vote but two if it went the way they dont like it ... How on earth is that MPs serving the majority ??? You say "Thats not democracy", but you don't say what "that" is. Which part of my point are you arguing with? What, is not democracy? You go on to say "I dont think anyone cares or gives a stuff about trying to alter your opinion either Brian". Is that sentiment democratic? Isn't democracy founded on arguing a case to try to bring others to accept its value? I have repeatedly asked for that case to be made in favour of Brexit - but answer comes there none. That seems to me democratic. Isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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