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Oh deary deary me!
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userGremlin
Posted: 11 January 2022 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
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Bulletguy - 2022-01-11 5:22 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 11:26 AM

Hmm. A war in which both the public and both sides of the house supported. I find it somewhat ironic that the very people who are now frothing at the mouth and seething about his knighthood will have been itching for it all to kick off in Iraq sat with their popcorn watching the first bombs fall live on TV.

This is not about Blair anyway or any other Prime Minister from the last century its about Johnson.

Unlike Corbyn Johnsons voting record shows he consistently voted in favour of the invasion of Iraq and Pelmet was certainly among those glued to their televisions in excitement.

Blair is just a smokescreen used by hypocrites who forget we were Americas obedient little poodle.


Blair was most certainly Bush’s “poodle”. Not sure I will ever forget Blair and Bush walking together with Blair having his hands in his pockets in a most unnatural “Cowboy” pose.

It really was cringeworthy.

I don’t think Boris is so enamoured with Biden!
userBarryd999
Posted: 11 January 2022 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11458
5000500010001001001001002525
Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.

userGremlin
Posted: 11 January 2022 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.



userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 11 January 2022 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Forum master

Posts: 2521
2000500


Gremlin - 2022-01-11 7:25 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.


Article 16 was never triggered

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16

As to T cell response the jury is still out in terms of longer term effectiveness, anyone saying otherwise is either banging a nationalism or commercial drum. Ninety percent of the jabs I delivered were AZ and I'd obviously like to claim its super duper, but there are two reasons why it is no longer being used in this country 1.There are more side effects with adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Johnson and Johnson, even the UK government accepted this when they ruled out the use of AZ for those between 18 and 40. Although for obvious reasons they haven't highlighted this too much.
2. A mixed vaccine schedule provokes the immune system into the best response, or at least that's current thinking.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/

userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 6:45 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-11 9:45 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 7:25 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.


Article 16 was never triggered

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16

As to T cell response the jury is still out in terms of longer term effectiveness, anyone saying otherwise is either banging a nationalism or commercial drum. Ninety percent of the jabs I delivered were AZ and I'd obviously like to claim its super duper, but there are two reasons why it is no longer being used in this country 1.There are more side effects with adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Johnson and Johnson, even the UK government accepted this when they ruled out the use of AZ for those between 18 and 40. Although for obvious reasons they haven't highlighted this too much.
2. A mixed vaccine schedule provokes the immune system into the best response, or at least that's current thinking.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/



T-cell response is key to long term protection. And the AZ jab does have a significant advantage here. But I totally agree that a mix gives the best overall protection. From what I have seen, for most people, AZ 1 and 2 then an m-RNA one works well but even better is if somewhere along that path the individual picks up antibodies from an actual infection as well.

As for what actually happened re the EU Triggering Article 16 it is worth looking at what happened as a timeline and the resulting reaction from the Irish Government, the U.K. Government and the entire political spectrum of N.I.

By Wednesday 27th Jan the EU was reeling from its failure to secure enough vaccines for its population. EU member States were in open revolt and threatening to “go it alone” to secure their own jabs.

The EU announces it will set up a “vaccine export transparency mechanism” to control the export of vaccines to non-EU countries.

Thursday 28th Jan - EU Council President Charles Michel (who is Belgium and who Government was truly reeling from the then infection rate and the virtual paralysation of Belgiums Health Service with no sign that the EU vaccine procurement programme was actually going to deliver anything) stated:-

“The EU needs to take robust action to secure its supply of vaccines and demonstrate concretely that the protection of its citizens remains our absolute priority”

This left the EU reeling as other non-EU countries had stumped up cash and signed supply contracts with International Pharmaceutical Companies who were now able to supply vaccine whereas the EU was way behind because it focused on cost rather than delivery.

This raised eyebrows in the International Community after the EU announced:-

“There is a possibility in certain circumstances not to allow the export to move forward. But the basic assumption is that the exports will take place as foreseen” - this raised alarm bells the world over. Not least when an Export of vaccine to Australia was stopped.

Friday 29th Jan

The EU publishes its contract with AZ and the debate about the exact meaning of “Best Available Efforts” starts.

The U.K. states that it will aid other countries where it can however it prioritises its own population.

Late afternoon that day the European Medicines Agency finally approves the AZ Vaccine for over 18’s. It is worth noting that the EU was trying to exert control of a vaccine that it had not, up until late on the 29th Jan, actually approved for use as a Covid vaccine.

Shortly after this, at about 5:30 reports started to emerge that the EU Commission had triggered Article 16 of the NI Protocol as part of the wider EU controls on vaccine exports. The move implemented a hard border for vaccines in the island of Ireland.

NI First Minister calls this “ an incredible act of hostility “

Irish Taoiseach Michael Martin - in a rare act of unity with the U.K. - expresses Irelands concern to Ursula Von der Leyen. In fact all parties on all sides of the Irish Sea are stunned by the EU action in triggering Article 16.

By 10:55 the EU has backed down after the Irish Taoiseach in particular expresses everyone’s anger at the EU unilaterally invoking Article 16 without any discussions with any of the Governments affected.

Both the U.K. and Irish Government as well as all Parties in NI were clear in their anger and disquiet at the EU invoking Article 16.




userJohn52
Posted: 12 January 2022 7:05 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11055
5000500010002525
Location: Pissindoon, Scotland


Gremlin - 2022-01-11 5:37 PM
I don’t think Boris is so enamoured with Biden!


Mini-Trump 'Boris' was too enamoured with Trump
Now we are paying the price - like losing out on the trade deals given to the EU
userJohn52
Posted: 12 January 2022 7:11 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11055
5000500010002525
Location: Pissindoon, Scotland


Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM
putting up the cash .


Yes Johnson has certainly done that
Over £300 billion borrowed and spaffed away to his cronies - for what exactly?
We don't know because he keeps kicking the inquiry down the road
userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


John52 - 2022-01-12 7:11 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM
putting up the cash .


Yes Johnson has certainly done that
Over £300 billion borrowed and spaffed away to his cronies - for what exactly?
We don't know because he keeps kicking the inquiry down the road


Easy to say that he “spiffed it away to cronies” but whilst all politicians must be held to account for such actions - the fact that the vaccine rollout has been a success such that it now looks like the U.K. will be one of the first countries to move to endemic rather than pandemic has to be recognised.

It should also be recognised that Government Borrowing has never been cheaper. In fact with negative yield Gilts being issued then what has to be paid back is actually less than the original sum borrowed.

Bizarre I know.

But where else do you go when Q.E. is no longer feasible.
userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 12 January 2022 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Forum master

Posts: 2521
2000500


Gremlin - 2022-01-12 6:45 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-11 9:45 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 7:25 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.


Article 16 was never triggered

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16

As to T cell response the jury is still out in terms of longer term effectiveness, anyone saying otherwise is either banging a nationalism or commercial drum. Ninety percent of the jabs I delivered were AZ and I'd obviously like to claim its super duper, but there are two reasons why it is no longer being used in this country 1.There are more side effects with adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Johnson and Johnson, even the UK government accepted this when they ruled out the use of AZ for those between 18 and 40. Although for obvious reasons they haven't highlighted this too much.
2. A mixed vaccine schedule provokes the immune system into the best response, or at least that's current thinking.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/



T-cell response is key to long term protection. And the AZ jab does have a significant advantage here. But I totally agree that a mix gives the best overall protection. From what I have seen, for most people, AZ 1 and 2 then an m-RNA one works well but even better is if somewhere along that path the individual picks up antibodies from an actual infection as well.

As for what actually happened re the EU Triggering Article 16 it is worth looking at what happened as a timeline and the resulting reaction from the Irish Government, the U.K. Government and the entire political spectrum of N.I.

By Wednesday 27th Jan the EU was reeling from its failure to secure enough vaccines for its population. EU member States were in open revolt and threatening to “go it alone” to secure their own jabs.

The EU announces it will set up a “vaccine export transparency mechanism” to control the export of vaccines to non-EU countries.

Thursday 28th Jan - EU Council President Charles Michel (who is Belgium and who Government was truly reeling from the then infection rate and the virtual paralysation of Belgiums Health Service with no sign that the EU vaccine procurement programme was actually going to deliver anything) stated:-

“The EU needs to take robust action to secure its supply of vaccines and demonstrate concretely that the protection of its citizens remains our absolute priority”

This left the EU reeling as other non-EU countries had stumped up cash and signed supply contracts with International Pharmaceutical Companies who were now able to supply vaccine whereas the EU was way behind because it focused on cost rather than delivery.

This raised eyebrows in the International Community after the EU announced:-

“There is a possibility in certain circumstances not to allow the export to move forward. But the basic assumption is that the exports will take place as foreseen” - this raised alarm bells the world over. Not least when an Export of vaccine to Australia was stopped.

Friday 29th Jan

The EU publishes its contract with AZ and the debate about the exact meaning of “Best Available Efforts” starts.

The U.K. states that it will aid other countries where it can however it prioritises its own population.

Late afternoon that day the European Medicines Agency finally approves the AZ Vaccine for over 18’s. It is worth noting that the EU was trying to exert control of a vaccine that it had not, up until late on the 29th Jan, actually approved for use as a Covid vaccine.

Shortly after this, at about 5:30 reports started to emerge that the EU Commission had triggered Article 16 of the NI Protocol as part of the wider EU controls on vaccine exports. The move implemented a hard border for vaccines in the island of Ireland.

NI First Minister calls this “ an incredible act of hostility “

Irish Taoiseach Michael Martin - in a rare act of unity with the U.K. - expresses Irelands concern to Ursula Von der Leyen. In fact all parties on all sides of the Irish Sea are stunned by the EU action in triggering Article 16.

By 10:55 the EU has backed down after the Irish Taoiseach in particular expresses everyone’s anger at the EU unilaterally invoking Article 16 without any discussions with any of the Governments affected.

Both the U.K. and Irish Government as well as all Parties in NI were clear in their anger and disquiet at the EU invoking Article 16.



Triggering A16 is a formal process and has not happened by either parties. If the threat of triggering A16 is enough to say it's been actioned, then Mr Frost has so far triggered it 28 times and Ms Truss triggered it most recently in her Telegraph article at the weekend.

Even the HOC states this.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

And its pointless arguing about the efficacy of AZ when you are only prepared to listen to one source, the link I provided earlier demonstrates that the scientific jury of peer review is still out.
userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 8:59 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
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John52 - 2022-01-12 7:05 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 5:37 PM
I don’t think Boris is so enamoured with Biden!


Mini-Trump 'Boris' was too enamoured with Trump
Now we are paying the price - like losing out on the trade deals given to the EU


The EU trade deals were more of a hindrance than a help. And the EU had a history of paying non EU countries to take industry away from the U.K.

The best example of this was the Ford Transit Factory in Southampton. The sign as you drive past the Eastleigh plant was “Southampton, home of the Transit.

Then the EU lent Ford (an American Company) £80million to close down the Southampton Factory and move it to Turkey (a non EU Country) - and what made it worse is that as one of the major contributors to the ECB, the U.K. taxpayer actually stumped up a large proportion of the £80million.

The jobs fallout In Southampton was horrendous. Not just the thousands of jobs at Ford but all the supply network as well.

Not an isolated case either. Tettley Tea in Basingstoke was paid money by the ECB to move production to Poland.

Little wonder that people who saw what was happening voted as they did.

Edited by Gremlin 2022-01-12 9:09 AM
userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Posts: 169
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CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 8:46 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 6:45 AM

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Gremlin - 2022-01-11 7:25 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.


Article 16 was never triggered

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16

As to T cell response the jury is still out in terms of longer term effectiveness, anyone saying otherwise is either banging a nationalism or commercial drum. Ninety percent of the jabs I delivered were AZ and I'd obviously like to claim its super duper, but there are two reasons why it is no longer being used in this country 1.There are more side effects with adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Johnson and Johnson, even the UK government accepted this when they ruled out the use of AZ for those between 18 and 40. Although for obvious reasons they haven't highlighted this too much.
2. A mixed vaccine schedule provokes the immune system into the best response, or at least that's current thinking.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/



T-cell response is key to long term protection. And the AZ jab does have a significant advantage here. But I totally agree that a mix gives the best overall protection. From what I have seen, for most people, AZ 1 and 2 then an m-RNA one works well but even better is if somewhere along that path the individual picks up antibodies from an actual infection as well.

As for what actually happened re the EU Triggering Article 16 it is worth looking at what happened as a timeline and the resulting reaction from the Irish Government, the U.K. Government and the entire political spectrum of N.I.

By Wednesday 27th Jan the EU was reeling from its failure to secure enough vaccines for its population. EU member States were in open revolt and threatening to “go it alone” to secure their own jabs.

The EU announces it will set up a “vaccine export transparency mechanism” to control the export of vaccines to non-EU countries.

Thursday 28th Jan - EU Council President Charles Michel (who is Belgium and who Government was truly reeling from the then infection rate and the virtual paralysation of Belgiums Health Service with no sign that the EU vaccine procurement programme was actually going to deliver anything) stated:-

“The EU needs to take robust action to secure its supply of vaccines and demonstrate concretely that the protection of its citizens remains our absolute priority”

This left the EU reeling as other non-EU countries had stumped up cash and signed supply contracts with International Pharmaceutical Companies who were now able to supply vaccine whereas the EU was way behind because it focused on cost rather than delivery.

This raised eyebrows in the International Community after the EU announced:-

“There is a possibility in certain circumstances not to allow the export to move forward. But the basic assumption is that the exports will take place as foreseen” - this raised alarm bells the world over. Not least when an Export of vaccine to Australia was stopped.

Friday 29th Jan

The EU publishes its contract with AZ and the debate about the exact meaning of “Best Available Efforts” starts.

The U.K. states that it will aid other countries where it can however it prioritises its own population.

Late afternoon that day the European Medicines Agency finally approves the AZ Vaccine for over 18’s. It is worth noting that the EU was trying to exert control of a vaccine that it had not, up until late on the 29th Jan, actually approved for use as a Covid vaccine.

Shortly after this, at about 5:30 reports started to emerge that the EU Commission had triggered Article 16 of the NI Protocol as part of the wider EU controls on vaccine exports. The move implemented a hard border for vaccines in the island of Ireland.

NI First Minister calls this “ an incredible act of hostility “

Irish Taoiseach Michael Martin - in a rare act of unity with the U.K. - expresses Irelands concern to Ursula Von der Leyen. In fact all parties on all sides of the Irish Sea are stunned by the EU action in triggering Article 16.

By 10:55 the EU has backed down after the Irish Taoiseach in particular expresses everyone’s anger at the EU unilaterally invoking Article 16 without any discussions with any of the Governments affected.

Both the U.K. and Irish Government as well as all Parties in NI were clear in their anger and disquiet at the EU invoking Article 16.



Triggering A16 is a formal process and has not happened by either parties. If the threat of triggering A16 is enough to say it's been actioned, then Mr Frost has so far triggered it 28 times and Ms Truss triggered it most recently in her Telegraph article at the weekend.

Even the HOC states this.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

And its pointless arguing about the efficacy of AZ when you are only prepared to listen to one source, the link I provided earlier demonstrates that the scientific jury of peer review is still out.


The EU did trigger Article 16 - yes they did then retract it. This is not the same as stating that triggering it is an option.

And please don’t hide behind the notion of “Peer Review” - the AZ Vaccine is excellent - especially as regards T-cell stimulation - this has been established by peer reviewed studies.
userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 12 January 2022 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Forum master

Posts: 2521
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Gremlin - 2022-01-12 9:04 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 8:46 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 6:45 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-11 9:45 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 7:25 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.


Article 16 was never triggered

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16

As to T cell response the jury is still out in terms of longer term effectiveness, anyone saying otherwise is either banging a nationalism or commercial drum. Ninety percent of the jabs I delivered were AZ and I'd obviously like to claim its super duper, but there are two reasons why it is no longer being used in this country 1.There are more side effects with adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Johnson and Johnson, even the UK government accepted this when they ruled out the use of AZ for those between 18 and 40. Although for obvious reasons they haven't highlighted this too much.
2. A mixed vaccine schedule provokes the immune system into the best response, or at least that's current thinking.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/



T-cell response is key to long term protection. And the AZ jab does have a significant advantage here. But I totally agree that a mix gives the best overall protection. From what I have seen, for most people, AZ 1 and 2 then an m-RNA one works well but even better is if somewhere along that path the individual picks up antibodies from an actual infection as well.

As for what actually happened re the EU Triggering Article 16 it is worth looking at what happened as a timeline and the resulting reaction from the Irish Government, the U.K. Government and the entire political spectrum of N.I.

By Wednesday 27th Jan the EU was reeling from its failure to secure enough vaccines for its population. EU member States were in open revolt and threatening to “go it alone” to secure their own jabs.

The EU announces it will set up a “vaccine export transparency mechanism” to control the export of vaccines to non-EU countries.

Thursday 28th Jan - EU Council President Charles Michel (who is Belgium and who Government was truly reeling from the then infection rate and the virtual paralysation of Belgiums Health Service with no sign that the EU vaccine procurement programme was actually going to deliver anything) stated:-

“The EU needs to take robust action to secure its supply of vaccines and demonstrate concretely that the protection of its citizens remains our absolute priority”

This left the EU reeling as other non-EU countries had stumped up cash and signed supply contracts with International Pharmaceutical Companies who were now able to supply vaccine whereas the EU was way behind because it focused on cost rather than delivery.

This raised eyebrows in the International Community after the EU announced:-

“There is a possibility in certain circumstances not to allow the export to move forward. But the basic assumption is that the exports will take place as foreseen” - this raised alarm bells the world over. Not least when an Export of vaccine to Australia was stopped.

Friday 29th Jan

The EU publishes its contract with AZ and the debate about the exact meaning of “Best Available Efforts” starts.

The U.K. states that it will aid other countries where it can however it prioritises its own population.

Late afternoon that day the European Medicines Agency finally approves the AZ Vaccine for over 18’s. It is worth noting that the EU was trying to exert control of a vaccine that it had not, up until late on the 29th Jan, actually approved for use as a Covid vaccine.

Shortly after this, at about 5:30 reports started to emerge that the EU Commission had triggered Article 16 of the NI Protocol as part of the wider EU controls on vaccine exports. The move implemented a hard border for vaccines in the island of Ireland.

NI First Minister calls this “ an incredible act of hostility “

Irish Taoiseach Michael Martin - in a rare act of unity with the U.K. - expresses Irelands concern to Ursula Von der Leyen. In fact all parties on all sides of the Irish Sea are stunned by the EU action in triggering Article 16.

By 10:55 the EU has backed down after the Irish Taoiseach in particular expresses everyone’s anger at the EU unilaterally invoking Article 16 without any discussions with any of the Governments affected.

Both the U.K. and Irish Government as well as all Parties in NI were clear in their anger and disquiet at the EU invoking Article 16.



Triggering A16 is a formal process and has not happened by either parties. If the threat of triggering A16 is enough to say it's been actioned, then Mr Frost has so far triggered it 28 times and Ms Truss triggered it most recently in her Telegraph article at the weekend.

Even the HOC states this.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

And its pointless arguing about the efficacy of AZ when you are only prepared to listen to one source, the link I provided earlier demonstrates that the scientific jury of peer review is still out.


The EU did trigger Article 16 - yes they did then retract it. This is not the same as stating that triggering it is an option.

And please don’t hide behind the notion of “Peer Review” - the AZ Vaccine is excellent - especially as regards T-cell stimulation - this has been established by peer reviewed studies.


" the AZ Vaccine is excellent" so why is it no longer being used in the UK?

Do you ever bother to read the links others provide that might give you a more rounded picture

So you are right and the House of Commons library is incorrect on A16?

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/




Edited by CurtainRaiser 2022-01-12 9:25 AM
userBarryd999
Posted: 12 January 2022 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11458
5000500010001001001001002525
Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


Did the EU trigger article 16? Answer no.

"Has Article 16 been triggered?
To date, neither party has formally triggered Article 16. It has, however, been referred to by both the EU and UK.

Most notably, in January 2021, the EU proposed invoking Article 16 to allow export controls, designed to prevent Covid-19 vaccines produced in the EU from being exported without authorisation, to apply to vaccines being sent to Northern Ireland which could subsequently enter Great Britain. The EU justified this initial decision as necessary “to avert serious societal difficulties” it argued would arise if the vaccine supply to member states was disrupted.[1]

In this circumstance, the EU did not follow the procedures for invoking Article 16, or notify the UK of the proposals through the Joint Committee. Following strong criticism from the UK and Irish governments, as well as political parties in Northern Ireland, the EU quickly U-turned and amended the proposals before any unilateral measures were taken."

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16
userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 9:23 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 9:04 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 8:46 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 6:45 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-11 9:45 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 7:25 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.


Article 16 was never triggered

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16

As to T cell response the jury is still out in terms of longer term effectiveness, anyone saying otherwise is either banging a nationalism or commercial drum. Ninety percent of the jabs I delivered were AZ and I'd obviously like to claim its super duper, but there are two reasons why it is no longer being used in this country 1.There are more side effects with adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Johnson and Johnson, even the UK government accepted this when they ruled out the use of AZ for those between 18 and 40. Although for obvious reasons they haven't highlighted this too much.
2. A mixed vaccine schedule provokes the immune system into the best response, or at least that's current thinking.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/



T-cell response is key to long term protection. And the AZ jab does have a significant advantage here. But I totally agree that a mix gives the best overall protection. From what I have seen, for most people, AZ 1 and 2 then an m-RNA one works well but even better is if somewhere along that path the individual picks up antibodies from an actual infection as well.

As for what actually happened re the EU Triggering Article 16 it is worth looking at what happened as a timeline and the resulting reaction from the Irish Government, the U.K. Government and the entire political spectrum of N.I.

By Wednesday 27th Jan the EU was reeling from its failure to secure enough vaccines for its population. EU member States were in open revolt and threatening to “go it alone” to secure their own jabs.

The EU announces it will set up a “vaccine export transparency mechanism” to control the export of vaccines to non-EU countries.

Thursday 28th Jan - EU Council President Charles Michel (who is Belgium and who Government was truly reeling from the then infection rate and the virtual paralysation of Belgiums Health Service with no sign that the EU vaccine procurement programme was actually going to deliver anything) stated:-

“The EU needs to take robust action to secure its supply of vaccines and demonstrate concretely that the protection of its citizens remains our absolute priority”

This left the EU reeling as other non-EU countries had stumped up cash and signed supply contracts with International Pharmaceutical Companies who were now able to supply vaccine whereas the EU was way behind because it focused on cost rather than delivery.

This raised eyebrows in the International Community after the EU announced:-

“There is a possibility in certain circumstances not to allow the export to move forward. But the basic assumption is that the exports will take place as foreseen” - this raised alarm bells the world over. Not least when an Export of vaccine to Australia was stopped.

Friday 29th Jan

The EU publishes its contract with AZ and the debate about the exact meaning of “Best Available Efforts” starts.

The U.K. states that it will aid other countries where it can however it prioritises its own population.

Late afternoon that day the European Medicines Agency finally approves the AZ Vaccine for over 18’s. It is worth noting that the EU was trying to exert control of a vaccine that it had not, up until late on the 29th Jan, actually approved for use as a Covid vaccine.

Shortly after this, at about 5:30 reports started to emerge that the EU Commission had triggered Article 16 of the NI Protocol as part of the wider EU controls on vaccine exports. The move implemented a hard border for vaccines in the island of Ireland.

NI First Minister calls this “ an incredible act of hostility “

Irish Taoiseach Michael Martin - in a rare act of unity with the U.K. - expresses Irelands concern to Ursula Von der Leyen. In fact all parties on all sides of the Irish Sea are stunned by the EU action in triggering Article 16.

By 10:55 the EU has backed down after the Irish Taoiseach in particular expresses everyone’s anger at the EU unilaterally invoking Article 16 without any discussions with any of the Governments affected.

Both the U.K. and Irish Government as well as all Parties in NI were clear in their anger and disquiet at the EU invoking Article 16.



Triggering A16 is a formal process and has not happened by either parties. If the threat of triggering A16 is enough to say it's been actioned, then Mr Frost has so far triggered it 28 times and Ms Truss triggered it most recently in her Telegraph article at the weekend.

Even the HOC states this.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

And its pointless arguing about the efficacy of AZ when you are only prepared to listen to one source, the link I provided earlier demonstrates that the scientific jury of peer review is still out.


The EU did trigger Article 16 - yes they did then retract it. This is not the same as stating that triggering it is an option.

And please don’t hide behind the notion of “Peer Review” - the AZ Vaccine is excellent - especially as regards T-cell stimulation - this has been established by peer reviewed studies.


" the AZ Vaccine is excellent" so why is it no longer being used in the UK?

Do you ever bother to read the links others provide that might give you a more rounded picture

So you are right and the House of Commons library is incorrect on A16?

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/




I suspect it has something to do with the overall level of vaccination thus far achieved.

As for your links - the first just outlines what Article 16 is and how it can be used.

As far as I can see it makes no mention of it’s use/triggering by the EU Back in January last year.

As for SMC - it’s little better than “New Scientist” as an objective source and has a known bias - I’m not surprised you cite it.

I agree with “Nature’s” assessment:-

“… they push science too aggressively, acting more like a PR agency than a source of accurate science”

It’s a lobby group and it’s bias is well known.



If I’m wrong please point out the exact passage where it is covered.
userpelmetman
Posted: 12 January 2022 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 38147
50005000500050005000500050002000100010025
Location: A different planet to you


Gremlin - 2022-01-12 8:43 AM

John52 - 2022-01-12 7:11 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM
putting up the cash .


Yes Johnson has certainly done that
Over £300 billion borrowed and spaffed away to his cronies - for what exactly?
We don't know because he keeps kicking the inquiry down the road


Easy to say that he “spiffed it away to cronies” but whilst all politicians must be held to account for such actions - the fact that the vaccine rollout has been a success such that it now looks like the U.K. will be one of the first countries to move to endemic rather than pandemic has to be recognised.

It should also be recognised that Government Borrowing has never been cheaper. In fact with negative yield Gilts being issued then what has to be paid back is actually less than the original sum borrowed.

Bizarre I know.

But where else do you go when Q.E. is no longer feasible.


"the fact that the vaccine rollout has been a success such that it now looks like the U.K. will be one of the first countries to move to endemic rather than pandemic has to be recognised."

Indeed ..........

That's why the Squad on here and the BBC etc etc are making such drama out of a few drinks organised by a civil servant ........

They know Brexit Blighty is on the way out of the Pandemic ahead of the EU .........

So they also know this is their last chance at vengence ..........



userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 12 January 2022 10:12 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Forum master

Posts: 2521
2000500


Gremlin - 2022-01-12 9:42 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 9:23 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 9:04 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 8:46 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 6:45 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-11 9:45 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 7:25 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.


Article 16 was never triggered

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16

As to T cell response the jury is still out in terms of longer term effectiveness, anyone saying otherwise is either banging a nationalism or commercial drum. Ninety percent of the jabs I delivered were AZ and I'd obviously like to claim its super duper, but there are two reasons why it is no longer being used in this country 1.There are more side effects with adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Johnson and Johnson, even the UK government accepted this when they ruled out the use of AZ for those between 18 and 40. Although for obvious reasons they haven't highlighted this too much.
2. A mixed vaccine schedule provokes the immune system into the best response, or at least that's current thinking.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/



T-cell response is key to long term protection. And the AZ jab does have a significant advantage here. But I totally agree that a mix gives the best overall protection. From what I have seen, for most people, AZ 1 and 2 then an m-RNA one works well but even better is if somewhere along that path the individual picks up antibodies from an actual infection as well.

As for what actually happened re the EU Triggering Article 16 it is worth looking at what happened as a timeline and the resulting reaction from the Irish Government, the U.K. Government and the entire political spectrum of N.I.

By Wednesday 27th Jan the EU was reeling from its failure to secure enough vaccines for its population. EU member States were in open revolt and threatening to “go it alone” to secure their own jabs.

The EU announces it will set up a “vaccine export transparency mechanism” to control the export of vaccines to non-EU countries.

Thursday 28th Jan - EU Council President Charles Michel (who is Belgium and who Government was truly reeling from the then infection rate and the virtual paralysation of Belgiums Health Service with no sign that the EU vaccine procurement programme was actually going to deliver anything) stated:-

“The EU needs to take robust action to secure its supply of vaccines and demonstrate concretely that the protection of its citizens remains our absolute priority”

This left the EU reeling as other non-EU countries had stumped up cash and signed supply contracts with International Pharmaceutical Companies who were now able to supply vaccine whereas the EU was way behind because it focused on cost rather than delivery.

This raised eyebrows in the International Community after the EU announced:-

“There is a possibility in certain circumstances not to allow the export to move forward. But the basic assumption is that the exports will take place as foreseen” - this raised alarm bells the world over. Not least when an Export of vaccine to Australia was stopped.

Friday 29th Jan

The EU publishes its contract with AZ and the debate about the exact meaning of “Best Available Efforts” starts.

The U.K. states that it will aid other countries where it can however it prioritises its own population.

Late afternoon that day the European Medicines Agency finally approves the AZ Vaccine for over 18’s. It is worth noting that the EU was trying to exert control of a vaccine that it had not, up until late on the 29th Jan, actually approved for use as a Covid vaccine.

Shortly after this, at about 5:30 reports started to emerge that the EU Commission had triggered Article 16 of the NI Protocol as part of the wider EU controls on vaccine exports. The move implemented a hard border for vaccines in the island of Ireland.

NI First Minister calls this “ an incredible act of hostility “

Irish Taoiseach Michael Martin - in a rare act of unity with the U.K. - expresses Irelands concern to Ursula Von der Leyen. In fact all parties on all sides of the Irish Sea are stunned by the EU action in triggering Article 16.

By 10:55 the EU has backed down after the Irish Taoiseach in particular expresses everyone’s anger at the EU unilaterally invoking Article 16 without any discussions with any of the Governments affected.

Both the U.K. and Irish Government as well as all Parties in NI were clear in their anger and disquiet at the EU invoking Article 16.



Triggering A16 is a formal process and has not happened by either parties. If the threat of triggering A16 is enough to say it's been actioned, then Mr Frost has so far triggered it 28 times and Ms Truss triggered it most recently in her Telegraph article at the weekend.

Even the HOC states this.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

And its pointless arguing about the efficacy of AZ when you are only prepared to listen to one source, the link I provided earlier demonstrates that the scientific jury of peer review is still out.


The EU did trigger Article 16 - yes they did then retract it. This is not the same as stating that triggering it is an option.

And please don’t hide behind the notion of “Peer Review” - the AZ Vaccine is excellent - especially as regards T-cell stimulation - this has been established by peer reviewed studies.


" the AZ Vaccine is excellent" so why is it no longer being used in the UK?

Do you ever bother to read the links others provide that might give you a more rounded picture

So you are right and the House of Commons library is incorrect on A16?

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/




I suspect it has something to do with the overall level of vaccination thus far achieved.

As for your links - the first just outlines what Article 16 is and how it can be used.

As far as I can see it makes no mention of it’s use/triggering by the EU Back in January last year.

As for SMC - it’s little better than “New Scientist” as an objective source and has a known bias - I’m not surprised you cite it.

I agree with “Nature’s” assessment:-

“… they push science too aggressively, acting more like a PR agency than a source of accurate science”

It’s a lobby group and it’s bias is well known.



If I’m wrong please point out the exact passage where it is covered.


The second A16 link I provided was HOC library.
userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 10:12 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 9:42 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 9:23 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 9:04 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-12 8:46 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 6:45 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-11 9:45 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 7:25 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 5:57 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 1:49 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 11:36 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-11 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2022-01-11 8:59 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-10 4:50 PM

I never thought I would post a "Sun" link or even an article from Piers Morgan.

This has got to be the most damaging press coverage for Johnson in his entire shambles of a premiership. Surely thats the end of him now.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17268563/boris-johnson-shambles-quit-piers-morgan-uncensored/


Oh dreary dreary me ...........

You do know that if Boris gets the push.......The Tories will still be in power? .........

Keep on Hating & Hoping ............


Really? Oh I thought they would all clear off and go home.

There is a risk of course that the Tufton street mob could put in a bonkers puppet like Liz Truss but Im not sure even they would get away with that. My money would be on Rishi and I can live with that for now but your hero has to go as he is a disgrace and a totally despicable human being. He has dragged this country into the gutter and we are the laughing stock of the world as a result. Worse than that his horrendous handling of the pandemic, the lies and corruption are unforgivable. Not only do I want him gone, I want him locked up but ill settle for the former for now. Anyone (like you) still supporting this clown after everything he has done needs to take a good long look at themselves.


So just as I thought .........

It's all about LOSER vengence ........

Don't bother looking in the mirror......it'll prolly crack ...........


Just as you "thought"? Thats an oxymoron if ever I saw one. You think wrong of course. Revenge for what? Brexit? Screwing the country over? Corruption? Lies? Failing to protect the country from Covid? The list goes on and on.


People are allowed differing viewpoints.

As for failing to protect the country from Covid - to be honest, by giving the go ahead and putting up the cash rather than delaying everything as the EU did by trying to drive down costs - I would say that if you think Boris is guilty in this regard than so is every country in the world and most certainly China.

And you can add the EU to that by as I point out above, delaying the vaccine distribution to its member States and their populations because they wanted to save a few € was not a good decision.

Nor was invoking Article 16 when they realised they had made a monumental cook up.


Im not sure it was anything to do with saving money why the roll out in Europe was delayed. They signed their deal with AZ for example the day before we did contrary to what the media claimed. There were huge distribution and production issues and Britain got preferential treatment. As to why is a bit fuzzy but it appears to have been down to the difference in contract law between Belgium and the UK. There was also an issue where some countries had concerns over the AZ vaccines in the over 65s (nothing to do with the Eu of course).

They never invoked article 16 either, they threatened to but backed down. Since then Johnson has threatened to use it and still is despite it being "his oven ready deal" that he wants to break over NI.



The most certainly DID invoke Article 16 - but then revoked it when the whole world went WTF?

And as for the price negotiations check out the Poltico article “How Europe fell behind on vaccines”

Sun title “The EU secured some of the lowest prices in the world. At what cost?”

The article is by Jillian Deutsch and Sarah Wheaton

Published Jan27th 2021

It’s a good article outlining exactly how the EU managed to always be two or three steps behind which resulted in a great deal of frustration due to the Commission concentrating on “process over speed”.

As for the false criticism of the AZ vaccine not working as well in the over 60/65’s - this is and was never the case as the AZ vaccine follows old school methodology that was known and has now be proved to stimulate the memory T-cells that provide longer term immunity.

Whereas the new (wonderful!) mRNA technology vaccines certainly trigger a greater antibody response but this falls off and so the AZ vaccine is no slouch when it comes to protecting any age group.

Certain EU leaders were most certainly guilty of “misunderstanding” this, for reasons best known to themselves.

The FT in the 14th April 2021 reported the research that showed that the “AZ vaccine elicits stronger T-cell response in the elderly than the Pfizer jab”.

Then on the 23rd November 2021 The Guardian carried the story that because of the superior T-cell response from the AZ vaccine and the rejection of the AZ Vaccine by Europe is the link as to why there was such a Covid Surge in the EU.

Whilst the Guardian tries to “poo-poo” the idea - The AZ vaccine is now recognised as having a VERY good protective effect for the elderly, for this very reason.


Article 16 was never triggered

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-article-16

As to T cell response the jury is still out in terms of longer term effectiveness, anyone saying otherwise is either banging a nationalism or commercial drum. Ninety percent of the jabs I delivered were AZ and I'd obviously like to claim its super duper, but there are two reasons why it is no longer being used in this country 1.There are more side effects with adenovirus vaccines like AZ and Johnson and Johnson, even the UK government accepted this when they ruled out the use of AZ for those between 18 and 40. Although for obvious reasons they haven't highlighted this too much.
2. A mixed vaccine schedule provokes the immune system into the best response, or at least that's current thinking.

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/



T-cell response is key to long term protection. And the AZ jab does have a significant advantage here. But I totally agree that a mix gives the best overall protection. From what I have seen, for most people, AZ 1 and 2 then an m-RNA one works well but even better is if somewhere along that path the individual picks up antibodies from an actual infection as well.

As for what actually happened re the EU Triggering Article 16 it is worth looking at what happened as a timeline and the resulting reaction from the Irish Government, the U.K. Government and the entire political spectrum of N.I.

By Wednesday 27th Jan the EU was reeling from its failure to secure enough vaccines for its population. EU member States were in open revolt and threatening to “go it alone” to secure their own jabs.

The EU announces it will set up a “vaccine export transparency mechanism” to control the export of vaccines to non-EU countries.

Thursday 28th Jan - EU Council President Charles Michel (who is Belgium and who Government was truly reeling from the then infection rate and the virtual paralysation of Belgiums Health Service with no sign that the EU vaccine procurement programme was actually going to deliver anything) stated:-

“The EU needs to take robust action to secure its supply of vaccines and demonstrate concretely that the protection of its citizens remains our absolute priority”

This left the EU reeling as other non-EU countries had stumped up cash and signed supply contracts with International Pharmaceutical Companies who were now able to supply vaccine whereas the EU was way behind because it focused on cost rather than delivery.

This raised eyebrows in the International Community after the EU announced:-

“There is a possibility in certain circumstances not to allow the export to move forward. But the basic assumption is that the exports will take place as foreseen” - this raised alarm bells the world over. Not least when an Export of vaccine to Australia was stopped.

Friday 29th Jan

The EU publishes its contract with AZ and the debate about the exact meaning of “Best Available Efforts” starts.

The U.K. states that it will aid other countries where it can however it prioritises its own population.

Late afternoon that day the European Medicines Agency finally approves the AZ Vaccine for over 18’s. It is worth noting that the EU was trying to exert control of a vaccine that it had not, up until late on the 29th Jan, actually approved for use as a Covid vaccine.

Shortly after this, at about 5:30 reports started to emerge that the EU Commission had triggered Article 16 of the NI Protocol as part of the wider EU controls on vaccine exports. The move implemented a hard border for vaccines in the island of Ireland.

NI First Minister calls this “ an incredible act of hostility “

Irish Taoiseach Michael Martin - in a rare act of unity with the U.K. - expresses Irelands concern to Ursula Von der Leyen. In fact all parties on all sides of the Irish Sea are stunned by the EU action in triggering Article 16.

By 10:55 the EU has backed down after the Irish Taoiseach in particular expresses everyone’s anger at the EU unilaterally invoking Article 16 without any discussions with any of the Governments affected.

Both the U.K. and Irish Government as well as all Parties in NI were clear in their anger and disquiet at the EU invoking Article 16.



Triggering A16 is a formal process and has not happened by either parties. If the threat of triggering A16 is enough to say it's been actioned, then Mr Frost has so far triggered it 28 times and Ms Truss triggered it most recently in her Telegraph article at the weekend.

Even the HOC states this.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

And its pointless arguing about the efficacy of AZ when you are only prepared to listen to one source, the link I provided earlier demonstrates that the scientific jury of peer review is still out.


The EU did trigger Article 16 - yes they did then retract it. This is not the same as stating that triggering it is an option.

And please don’t hide behind the notion of “Peer Review” - the AZ Vaccine is excellent - especially as regards T-cell stimulation - this has been established by peer reviewed studies.


" the AZ Vaccine is excellent" so why is it no longer being used in the UK?

Do you ever bother to read the links others provide that might give you a more rounded picture

So you are right and the House of Commons library is incorrect on A16?

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9330/

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-today-programme-interview-with-pascal-soriot-and-comments-made-about-t-cell-immunity-generated-from-the-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-compared-to-mrna-vaccines-and-the-impact-on-risk-o/




I suspect it has something to do with the overall level of vaccination thus far achieved.

As for your links - the first just outlines what Article 16 is and how it can be used.

As far as I can see it makes no mention of it’s use/triggering by the EU Back in January last year.

As for SMC - it’s little better than “New Scientist” as an objective source and has a known bias - I’m not surprised you cite it.

I agree with “Nature’s” assessment:-

“… they push science too aggressively, acting more like a PR agency than a source of accurate science”

It’s a lobby group and it’s bias is well known.



If I’m wrong please point out the exact passage where it is covered.


The second A16 link I provided was HOC library.


Yes I know - and it very clearly sets out exactly what Article 16 is and how it is to be used.

It does not (as far as I can see) outline why the EU triggered it - in defiance, I might add, of many of the provisions it sets out!!

Most notably that all parties, the Irish Government and the U.K. Government as well as all of the NI assembly WOULD BE FORWARNED BY THE REQUIREMENTS AS SET OUT IN THE VERY DOCUMENT YOU CITE!!
userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 11:53 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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pelmetman - 2022-01-12 9:46 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 8:43 AM

John52 - 2022-01-12 7:11 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-11 2:18 PM
putting up the cash .


Yes Johnson has certainly done that
Over £300 billion borrowed and spaffed away to his cronies - for what exactly?
We don't know because he keeps kicking the inquiry down the road


Easy to say that he “spiffed it away to cronies” but whilst all politicians must be held to account for such actions - the fact that the vaccine rollout has been a success such that it now looks like the U.K. will be one of the first countries to move to endemic rather than pandemic has to be recognised.

It should also be recognised that Government Borrowing has never been cheaper. In fact with negative yield Gilts being issued then what has to be paid back is actually less than the original sum borrowed.

Bizarre I know.

But where else do you go when Q.E. is no longer feasible.


"the fact that the vaccine rollout has been a success such that it now looks like the U.K. will be one of the first countries to move to endemic rather than pandemic has to be recognised."

Indeed ..........

That's why the Squad on here and the BBC etc etc are making such drama out of a few drinks organised by a civil servant ........

They know Brexit Blighty is on the way out of the Pandemic ahead of the EU .........

So they also know this is their last chance at vengence ..........





I certainly think Boris is a bl00dy fool for allowing such flagrant breaches to happen. It will most likely cause him to “step down”.

And yes - the pandemic is moving to it being endemic - partly it is thought due to the U.K. using the AZ vaccine for 1 and 2 as this sets up the immunity “memory”, whereas the mRNA ones do not do this so well.

So having a third AZ is pretty pointless as the 1 and 2 have inserted the longer term memory. Being challenged with an mRNA Booster is then the best option.

As for International agreements - my niece in Australia made it very clear that Oz “went off” the EU when it blocked the vaccines they had purchased, and the fact that Oz then changed its mind re old fashioned diesel electric submarines from France whilst not necessarily a direct consequence, was certainly something Australians supported.

Hi
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 12 January 2022 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2022-01-12 9:46 AM
.....................................That's why the Squad on here and the BBC etc etc are making such drama out of a few drinks organised by a civil servant ........
They know Brexit Blighty is on the way out of the Pandemic ahead of the EU .........
So they also know this is their last chance at vengence ..........

Your political bias has seriously skewed your thinking, Dave - I'm tempted to say "yet again".

For a government to issue stringent, very specific, and far reaching, restrictions on public behaviour - with legal penalties for disregarding them, and then to repeatedly arrange (i.e. not by accident, but by conspiring beforehand to do so) to disregard those same regulations themselves is, at the very least, the height of hypocrisy.

To have denied doing so before parliament is to attempt to mislead parliament, which is a serious contempt.

Those are the charges.

Gathering to have a few drinks, whether organised by a civil servant or anyone else, was, at that time, essentially illegal. Had anyone else been caught doing so they would have been treated as law breakers.

You are pleading that government should not be expected to comply with the same laws as parliament imposes on the population at large.

I think you need to think that through. If not checked, that presumption of executive privilege creates very queasy precedents, potentially leading to authoritarianism and the collapse of democracy. Be very careful what you wish for - or seek to excuse - merely because it suits your transient agenda.

No "if's", no "but's", this is foolishness on a grand scale. As it is coming from someone who considers that disagreeing with the outcome of a non-binding referendum, while accepting its outcome, is "undemocratic", is, I'm sad to say, also rank hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways.
usermalc d
Posted: 12 January 2022 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Legendary contributor

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Brian Kirby - 2022-01-12 12:28 PM

Gathering to have a few drinks, whether organised by a civil servant or anyone else, was, at that time, essentially illegal. Had anyone else been caught doing so they would have been treated as law breakers.




As a gesture of his ( fake ) contrition in parliament today - why doesn't Johnson order that anyone outside his exclusive club, fined for breaking HIS rules on the day of his party - should get their money back.

userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 1:13 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
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Brian Kirby - 2022-01-12 12:28 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-12 9:46 AM
.....................................That's why the Squad on here and the BBC etc etc are making such drama out of a few drinks organised by a civil servant ........
They know Brexit Blighty is on the way out of the Pandemic ahead of the EU .........
So they also know this is their last chance at vengence ..........

Your political bias has seriously skewed your thinking, Dave - I'm tempted to say "yet again".

For a government to issue stringent, very specific, and far reaching, restrictions on public behaviour - with legal penalties for disregarding them, and then to repeatedly arrange (i.e. not by accident, but by conspiring beforehand to do so) to disregard those same regulations themselves is, at the very least, the height of hypocrisy.

To have denied doing so before parliament is to attempt to mislead parliament, which is a serious contempt.

Those are the charges.

Gathering to have a few drinks, whether organised by a civil servant or anyone else, was, at that time, essentially illegal. Had anyone else been caught doing so they would have been treated as law breakers.

You are pleading that government should not be expected to comply with the same laws as parliament imposes on the population at large.

I think you need to think that through. If not checked, that presumption of executive privilege creates very queasy precedents, potentially leading to authoritarianism and the collapse of democracy. Be very careful what you wish for - or seek to excuse - merely because it suits your transient agenda.

No "if's", no "but's", this is foolishness on a grand scale. As it is coming from someone who considers that disagreeing with the outcome of a non-binding referendum, while accepting its outcome, is "undemocratic", is, I'm sad to say, also rank hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways.


I agree with most of what you say - apart from your suggestion that the Referendum was not binding.

Cameron was very much a Remainer and the Government leaflet that was delivered to every household clearly stated that the Referendum was a chance to “Decide”.

This was made very clear. The vote was not an expression of a view, or to give a hint, or to give the Government a mandate to go back the EU and try again.

Their election manifesto stated that they would hold a Referendum and they made it clear that whatever the result it would be binding.

It was worded in that way because the Government genuinely believed that there would be a vote to Remain. And as such a binding vote to stay would draw a line under the issue of EU membership that had plagued the Conservatives for decades!

But the result went the other way - and the result is binding.
userBarryd999
Posted: 12 January 2022 2:02 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11458
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Gremlin - 2022-01-12 1:13 PM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-12 12:28 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-12 9:46 AM
.....................................That's why the Squad on here and the BBC etc etc are making such drama out of a few drinks organised by a civil servant ........
They know Brexit Blighty is on the way out of the Pandemic ahead of the EU .........
So they also know this is their last chance at vengence ..........

Your political bias has seriously skewed your thinking, Dave - I'm tempted to say "yet again".

For a government to issue stringent, very specific, and far reaching, restrictions on public behaviour - with legal penalties for disregarding them, and then to repeatedly arrange (i.e. not by accident, but by conspiring beforehand to do so) to disregard those same regulations themselves is, at the very least, the height of hypocrisy.

To have denied doing so before parliament is to attempt to mislead parliament, which is a serious contempt.

Those are the charges.

Gathering to have a few drinks, whether organised by a civil servant or anyone else, was, at that time, essentially illegal. Had anyone else been caught doing so they would have been treated as law breakers.

You are pleading that government should not be expected to comply with the same laws as parliament imposes on the population at large.

I think you need to think that through. If not checked, that presumption of executive privilege creates very queasy precedents, potentially leading to authoritarianism and the collapse of democracy. Be very careful what you wish for - or seek to excuse - merely because it suits your transient agenda.

No "if's", no "but's", this is foolishness on a grand scale. As it is coming from someone who considers that disagreeing with the outcome of a non-binding referendum, while accepting its outcome, is "undemocratic", is, I'm sad to say, also rank hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways.


I agree with most of what you say - apart from your suggestion that the Referendum was not binding.

Cameron was very much a Remainer and the Government leaflet that was delivered to every household clearly stated that the Referendum was a chance to “Decide”.

This was made very clear. The vote was not an expression of a view, or to give a hint, or to give the Government a mandate to go back the EU and try again.

Their election manifesto stated that they would hold a Referendum and they made it clear that whatever the result it would be binding.

It was worded in that way because the Government genuinely believed that there would be a vote to Remain. And as such a binding vote to stay would draw a line under the issue of EU membership that had plagued the Conservatives for decades!

But the result went the other way - and the result is binding.


Binding only in the sense of a promise. It was never "legally" binding which sadly backfired when Vote Leave were found to have broken electoral law. If it had been legally binding chances are the referendum result would have to have been ruled null and void.

Back on topic.

Johnson finally admits he was at the party but he just cant help himself. He still has to lie and make out he didnt know it was a party. The email invitations said exactly what it was but lets imagine he didnt get one and just happened to gate crash it, how could you not know it was a party and why did you as PM not stop it immediately? It just gets more laughable by the minute. When you are in a hole, stop digging (a term often used on here but ignored by a certain member )

It was totally delicious though watching him squirm today in the house while Starmer tore him a new arsehole. 10/10 sir Kier.

Edited by Barryd999 2022-01-12 2:04 PM
userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
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Barryd999 - 2022-01-12 2:02 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 1:13 PM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-12 12:28 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-12 9:46 AM
.....................................That's why the Squad on here and the BBC etc etc are making such drama out of a few drinks organised by a civil servant ........
They know Brexit Blighty is on the way out of the Pandemic ahead of the EU .........
So they also know this is their last chance at vengence ..........

Your political bias has seriously skewed your thinking, Dave - I'm tempted to say "yet again".

For a government to issue stringent, very specific, and far reaching, restrictions on public behaviour - with legal penalties for disregarding them, and then to repeatedly arrange (i.e. not by accident, but by conspiring beforehand to do so) to disregard those same regulations themselves is, at the very least, the height of hypocrisy.

To have denied doing so before parliament is to attempt to mislead parliament, which is a serious contempt.

Those are the charges.

Gathering to have a few drinks, whether organised by a civil servant or anyone else, was, at that time, essentially illegal. Had anyone else been caught doing so they would have been treated as law breakers.

You are pleading that government should not be expected to comply with the same laws as parliament imposes on the population at large.

I think you need to think that through. If not checked, that presumption of executive privilege creates very queasy precedents, potentially leading to authoritarianism and the collapse of democracy. Be very careful what you wish for - or seek to excuse - merely because it suits your transient agenda.

No "if's", no "but's", this is foolishness on a grand scale. As it is coming from someone who considers that disagreeing with the outcome of a non-binding referendum, while accepting its outcome, is "undemocratic", is, I'm sad to say, also rank hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways.


I agree with most of what you say - apart from your suggestion that the Referendum was not binding.

Cameron was very much a Remainer and the Government leaflet that was delivered to every household clearly stated that the Referendum was a chance to “Decide”.

This was made very clear. The vote was not an expression of a view, or to give a hint, or to give the Government a mandate to go back the EU and try again.

Their election manifesto stated that they would hold a Referendum and they made it clear that whatever the result it would be binding.

It was worded in that way because the Government genuinely believed that there would be a vote to Remain. And as such a binding vote to stay would draw a line under the issue of EU membership that had plagued the Conservatives for decades!

But the result went the other way - and the result is binding.


Binding only in the sense of a promise. It was never "legally" binding which sadly backfired when Vote Leave were found to have broken electoral law. If it had been legally binding chances are the referendum result would have to have been ruled null and void.

Back on topic.

Johnson finally admits he was at the party but he just cant help himself. He still has to lie and make out he didnt know it was a party. The email invitations said exactly what it was but lets imagine he didnt get one and just happened to gate crash it, how could you not know it was a party and why did you as PM not stop it immediately? It just gets more laughable by the minute. When you are in a hole, stop digging (a term often used on here but ignored by a certain member )

It was totally delicious though watching him squirm today in the house while Starmer tore him a new arsehole. 10/10 sir Kier.


A Referendum becomes legally binding if the Government of the day says it will be! That has always been the issue with EU Referendums in that populations vote for one thing and their Government with the EU’s help simply ignores the vote or keeps re-running the vote until it gets the result it wants.

With the Brexit Referendum the parameters could not have been more clear. Whichever way the vote went the result was binding. You cannot say that the result was not legally challenged! And the result of those legal challenges was unequivocal.

As for Boris - he needs to go.

Sooner the better.

Edited by Gremlin 2022-01-12 2:45 PM
userBarryd999
Posted: 12 January 2022 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11458
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Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


Gremlin - 2022-01-12 2:41 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-12 2:02 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 1:13 PM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-12 12:28 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-12 9:46 AM
.....................................That's why the Squad on here and the BBC etc etc are making such drama out of a few drinks organised by a civil servant ........
They know Brexit Blighty is on the way out of the Pandemic ahead of the EU .........
So they also know this is their last chance at vengence ..........

Your political bias has seriously skewed your thinking, Dave - I'm tempted to say "yet again".

For a government to issue stringent, very specific, and far reaching, restrictions on public behaviour - with legal penalties for disregarding them, and then to repeatedly arrange (i.e. not by accident, but by conspiring beforehand to do so) to disregard those same regulations themselves is, at the very least, the height of hypocrisy.

To have denied doing so before parliament is to attempt to mislead parliament, which is a serious contempt.

Those are the charges.

Gathering to have a few drinks, whether organised by a civil servant or anyone else, was, at that time, essentially illegal. Had anyone else been caught doing so they would have been treated as law breakers.

You are pleading that government should not be expected to comply with the same laws as parliament imposes on the population at large.

I think you need to think that through. If not checked, that presumption of executive privilege creates very queasy precedents, potentially leading to authoritarianism and the collapse of democracy. Be very careful what you wish for - or seek to excuse - merely because it suits your transient agenda.

No "if's", no "but's", this is foolishness on a grand scale. As it is coming from someone who considers that disagreeing with the outcome of a non-binding referendum, while accepting its outcome, is "undemocratic", is, I'm sad to say, also rank hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways.


I agree with most of what you say - apart from your suggestion that the Referendum was not binding.

Cameron was very much a Remainer and the Government leaflet that was delivered to every household clearly stated that the Referendum was a chance to “Decide”.

This was made very clear. The vote was not an expression of a view, or to give a hint, or to give the Government a mandate to go back the EU and try again.

Their election manifesto stated that they would hold a Referendum and they made it clear that whatever the result it would be binding.

It was worded in that way because the Government genuinely believed that there would be a vote to Remain. And as such a binding vote to stay would draw a line under the issue of EU membership that had plagued the Conservatives for decades!

But the result went the other way - and the result is binding.


Binding only in the sense of a promise. It was never "legally" binding which sadly backfired when Vote Leave were found to have broken electoral law. If it had been legally binding chances are the referendum result would have to have been ruled null and void.

Back on topic.

Johnson finally admits he was at the party but he just cant help himself. He still has to lie and make out he didnt know it was a party. The email invitations said exactly what it was but lets imagine he didnt get one and just happened to gate crash it, how could you not know it was a party and why did you as PM not stop it immediately? It just gets more laughable by the minute. When you are in a hole, stop digging (a term often used on here but ignored by a certain member )

It was totally delicious though watching him squirm today in the house while Starmer tore him a new arsehole. 10/10 sir Kier.


A Referendum becomes legally binding if the Government of the day says it will be! That has always been the issue with EU Referendums in that populations vote for one thing and their Government with the EU’s help simply ignores the vote or keeps re-running the vote until it gets the result it wants.

With the Brexit Referendum the parameters could not have been more clear. Whichever way the vote went the result was binding. You cannot say that the result was not legally challenged! And the result of those legal challenges was unequivocal.

As for Boris - he needs to go.

Sooner the better.


It wasn't legally binding. This fact check explains it better than I can but shows examples of how for example the 2011 voting system referendum was legally binding but the Brexit referendum was not.

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

Agree however about Johnson. I do wish people would stop calling him Boris though like he is some kind of cuddly pet dog. He's actually a nasty piece work IMO.

Edited by Barryd999 2022-01-12 2:54 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 12 January 2022 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Gremlin - 2022-01-12 2:41 PM

As for Boris - he needs to go.

Sooner the better.


I disagree .........

The fact that he annoys the hell outa Remoaners is enough for me to vote for him again as a paid up member of the Tory party ..........

userGremlin
Posted: 12 January 2022 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
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Barryd999 - 2022-01-12 2:54 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 2:41 PM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-12 2:02 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 1:13 PM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-12 12:28 PM

pelmetman - 2022-01-12 9:46 AM
.....................................That's why the Squad on here and the BBC etc etc are making such drama out of a few drinks organised by a civil servant ........
They know Brexit Blighty is on the way out of the Pandemic ahead of the EU .........
So they also know this is their last chance at vengence ..........

Your political bias has seriously skewed your thinking, Dave - I'm tempted to say "yet again".

For a government to issue stringent, very specific, and far reaching, restrictions on public behaviour - with legal penalties for disregarding them, and then to repeatedly arrange (i.e. not by accident, but by conspiring beforehand to do so) to disregard those same regulations themselves is, at the very least, the height of hypocrisy.

To have denied doing so before parliament is to attempt to mislead parliament, which is a serious contempt.

Those are the charges.

Gathering to have a few drinks, whether organised by a civil servant or anyone else, was, at that time, essentially illegal. Had anyone else been caught doing so they would have been treated as law breakers.

You are pleading that government should not be expected to comply with the same laws as parliament imposes on the population at large.

I think you need to think that through. If not checked, that presumption of executive privilege creates very queasy precedents, potentially leading to authoritarianism and the collapse of democracy. Be very careful what you wish for - or seek to excuse - merely because it suits your transient agenda.

No "if's", no "but's", this is foolishness on a grand scale. As it is coming from someone who considers that disagreeing with the outcome of a non-binding referendum, while accepting its outcome, is "undemocratic", is, I'm sad to say, also rank hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways.


I agree with most of what you say - apart from your suggestion that the Referendum was not binding.

Cameron was very much a Remainer and the Government leaflet that was delivered to every household clearly stated that the Referendum was a chance to “Decide”.

This was made very clear. The vote was not an expression of a view, or to give a hint, or to give the Government a mandate to go back the EU and try again.

Their election manifesto stated that they would hold a Referendum and they made it clear that whatever the result it would be binding.

It was worded in that way because the Government genuinely believed that there would be a vote to Remain. And as such a binding vote to stay would draw a line under the issue of EU membership that had plagued the Conservatives for decades!

But the result went the other way - and the result is binding.


Binding only in the sense of a promise. It was never "legally" binding which sadly backfired when Vote Leave were found to have broken electoral law. If it had been legally binding chances are the referendum result would have to have been ruled null and void.

Back on topic.

Johnson finally admits he was at the party but he just cant help himself. He still has to lie and make out he didnt know it was a party. The email invitations said exactly what it was but lets imagine he didnt get one and just happened to gate crash it, how could you not know it was a party and why did you as PM not stop it immediately? It just gets more laughable by the minute. When you are in a hole, stop digging (a term often used on here but ignored by a certain member )

It was totally delicious though watching him squirm today in the house while Starmer tore him a new arsehole. 10/10 sir Kier.


A Referendum becomes legally binding if the Government of the day says it will be! That has always been the issue with EU Referendums in that populations vote for one thing and their Government with the EU’s help simply ignores the vote or keeps re-running the vote until it gets the result it wants.

With the Brexit Referendum the parameters could not have been more clear. Whichever way the vote went the result was binding. You cannot say that the result was not legally challenged! And the result of those legal challenges was unequivocal.

As for Boris - he needs to go.

Sooner the better.


It wasn't legally binding. This fact check explains it better than I can but shows examples of how for example the 2011 voting system referendum was legally binding but the Brexit referendum was not.

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

Agree however about Johnson. I do wish people would stop calling him Boris though like he is some kind of cuddly pet dog. He's actually a nasty piece work IMO.


Yes - I’ve read that - and it seems that unlike you I read all of it because whilst it sets out the rationale for Referenda NOT to be binding, it then goes on to explain in what circumstances they become legally binding.

Specifically they cite that the Foreign Secretary on the 9th June 2015 stated “(the) decision about our membership should be taken by the British People, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; not even Government Ministers or Parliamentarians in this Chamber”.

They go onto state;-

“Similarly, the Governments leaflet to each household advocating a Remain Vote told voters that it (The Government) would implement the result.”

They go on to say that the Courts made it quite clear that MP’s delegated the decision to the voters and that MP’s have no legal right to “unmake it now”.

So the Referendum is and always was, legally binding. Even your own link explains this fact.

userBarryd999
Posted: 12 January 2022 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11458
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Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


pelmetman - 2022-01-12 3:29 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 2:41 PM

As for Boris - he needs to go.

Sooner the better.


I disagree .........

The fact that he annoys the hell outa Remoaners is enough for me to vote for him again as a paid up member of the Tory party ..........



Just one problem with your plan. If he loses the initial vote which is MPs only he is barred from entering the leadership contest. Keep paying your £25 though. I suspect many others who despise Johnson may also have joined the party.
userJohn52
Posted: 12 January 2022 11:36 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

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Gremlin - 2022-01-12 8:43 AM
It should also be recognised that Government Borrowing has never been cheaper. In fact with negative yield Gilts being issued then what has to be paid back is actually less than the original sum borrowed.


Not true
https://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/uk
userGremlin
Posted: 13 January 2022 1:00 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Posts: 169
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John52 - 2022-01-12 11:36 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-12 8:43 AM
It should also be recognised that Government Borrowing has never been cheaper. In fact with negative yield Gilts being issued then what has to be paid back is actually less than the original sum borrowed.


Not true
https://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/uk


It is true - have a look at the article from the Independent Wednesday 20th May 2020 16::34

“Why are investors paying the British government so it can borrow money?”

I quote:-

“As the UK’s Debt Management Office auctions debt with a negative yield for the first time in history, why would investors pay the government for the privilege of lending it money? And what does it mean for the government and for ordinary people?”

It is an excellent article it explains that if investors were to hold the Government Bond (or Gilt as they are usually known in the U.K.) until it matured “they would get back less than they paid for it.

The yield on the Gilt, set by competitive auction back ion May 2020 was -0.003%

It matures in July 2023.

And whilst as your link shows, things have improved a bit - it hasn’t improved by much as the yield on all of them listed by Bloomberg show that the return is way, way below current inflation.

The coupon on the 2 yr is 0.13%

Even on the 30yr it’s only 0.63%

So government borrowing has never been so inexpensive. Not least because with inflation being higher, (latest fig is 5.1%) so in real terms, it pays a government to borrow. So why on earth would investors buy into a deal whereby they get less back in real terms - or even ACTUAL terms with a negative yield Gilt?

It’s because the are playing the money markets. They expect the underlying currency to appreciate more than than the yield.

If you want to learn more about how this all works - there is an excellent CNBC article from back in 2015 when the Japanese Government seemed to do nothing but (in this area) issue negative yield bonds.

“The case for buying negative yield bonds”. CNBC

Jan 27 2015 by Leslie Shaffer

userJohn52
Posted: 13 January 2022 8:15 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11055
5000500010002525
Location: Pissindoon, Scotland



Gremlin - 2022-01-12 8:43 AM
Government Borrowing has never been cheaper.


Not True
It was cheaper in May 2020
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