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Oh deary deary me!
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userGremlin
Posted: 14 January 2022 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Bulletguy - 2022-01-14 4:33 PM


Neither the 1975 Act nor the 2015 Act, which authorised referendums about membership of the European Community or European Union, made provision for any consequences of either possible outcome. They provided only that the referendum should be held.

The 2016 referendum was described as advisory by some ministers and as decisive by others, but nothing hangs on that for present purposes. Whether or not they are clear and consistent, such public observations, wherever they are made, are not law: they are statements of political intention. Further, such statements are, at least normally, made by ministers on behalf of the UK government, not on behalf of Parliament.


Source; Supreme Court.


Which, when you understand the wording - clearly sets out that the Referendum Result was, and is, legally binding because the Government of the day said it would be.

Please refer to the following sentence regarding “Statements of political intent”

“Further, such statements are, at least normally, made by ministers on behalf of the U.K. government, not on behalf of Parliament.

So the Supreme Court said clearly that Ministers set out the parameters and once set - Parliament has no say. The people had spoken via Primary Democracy.

And they didn’t (have a say, skewed the result or insist on a second referendum) despite copious legal challenges and tantrums in the HoC’s.





Edited by Gremlin 2022-01-14 5:21 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 14 January 2022 5:33 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Gremlin - 2022-01-14 5:20 PM

Bulletguy - 2022-01-14 4:33 PM


Neither the 1975 Act nor the 2015 Act, which authorised referendums about membership of the European Community or European Union, made provision for any consequences of either possible outcome. They provided only that the referendum should be held.

The 2016 referendum was described as advisory by some ministers and as decisive by others, but nothing hangs on that for present purposes. Whether or not they are clear and consistent, such public observations, wherever they are made, are not law: they are statements of political intention. Further, such statements are, at least normally, made by ministers on behalf of the UK government, not on behalf of Parliament.


Source; Supreme Court.


Which, when you understand the wording - clearly sets out that the Referendum Result was, and is, legally binding because the Government of the day said it would be.

Please refer to the following sentence regarding “Statements of political intent”

“Further, such statements are, at least normally, made by ministers on behalf of the U.K. government, not on behalf of Parliament.

So the Supreme Court said clearly that Ministers set out the parameters and once set - Parliament has no say. The people had spoken via Primary Democracy.

And they didn’t (have a say, skewed the result or insist on a second referendum) despite copious legal challenges and tantrums in the HoC’s.

Ministers’ intentions are not law. And you are wrong that "parliament has no say" as that's precisely where the laws are made NOT by ministers saying what they intend a referendum to be.

Your claims appear to be based on nothing more than personal opinion and interpretation as not once have you provided any official source.

Edited by Bulletguy 2022-01-14 5:34 PM
userBarryd999
Posted: 14 January 2022 5:33 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

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If Mr Grumbling isnt FunnyJohn then he must be related. I seem to remember he was the same. always thought he was right even when proved beyond doubt that he wasn't. Even when extremely well informed members of the forum point out to him and show him factorial evidence that the referendum was not legally binding and even when the supreme court itself declared it wasn't he still thinks he is right. Bizarre.

As for the lies he claims "all" politicians make by which I presume he means "leave" and "remain" both told porkies I dont agree because the raft of lies told by Johnson and the leave campaign were either proved as lies at the time or have since been proved as utter bullsh1t. The lies he claims were made by the remain side were predictions and lets remember many of those such as Nissan leaving or economic collapse were based on us leaving with no deal. Nissan themselves declared they would likely leave if we left without a deal. We left with a deal. Albeit a terrible one but a deal all the same, the cracks in which are beginning to show. NI still in limbo and a tinderbox, Fishermen under the bus, farming next although one advantage the Brexiteers have had with Partygate is its been a distraction from the lorries now facing checks coming inward to Dover which started on Jan 1 with some being held up for days already.



userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 14 January 2022 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Yes I must confess I had concluded that Grumbling is indeed Frumster John.

Quite amusing that he is seeking to set himself out as a remainer.
userGremlin
Posted: 14 January 2022 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-14 5:53 PM

Yes I must confess I had concluded that Grumbling is indeed Frumster John.

Quite amusing that he is seeking to set himself out as a remainer.



What’s even more amusing is that you are so desperate to make out that I am someone you have “chatted” to before.

How long have you lot been collectively engineering “ownership” of this little backwater?

Little wonder I get this idea that you all want to be big fish in a tiny pond (puddle?)
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 14 January 2022 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Gremlin - 2022-01-14 4:10 PM .................................
1 Well that is what politicians do - they lie. whatever type of flavour, they lie.
2 Money saved to be spent entirely on the NHS? Err no
3 Vat scrapped - Err no (tho rumour has it a new “purchase tax” will be fairer - we can but hope
4 Even a vote to leave would cause economic collapse - Err, no it didn’t
5 Nissan Sunderland will up sticks and leave - Nope! - didn’t happen. Quite the opposite in Fact
6 Even I thought opting out of the EU vaccine programme was a huge mistake. How wrong I was…..
7 There was lies a deceit on both sides - and given that it was made clear to all of us, the participants in the Referendum that the result WOULD be legally binding, it is disappointing that some are still trying to re-write history
8 But they are in good company - Trump supporters still maintain THEY won.

1 Not in my opinion, but I may be applying a higher bar than you before levelling the allegation of lying. For me, a lie is a deliberate and knowingly false claim or declaration. What I think politicians are guilty of is dissembling, being ridiculously over optimistic, exaggerating for electoral benefit, selecting only "facts" that favour their political agendas, "spinning" news etc, which I don't much like, but accept goes with the territory. But, with the exception of the present PM, I would not allege that they set out to knowingly tell lies. Most seem to have sufficient common sense to realise that, especially in today's world of instant media, they are hostages to fortune if they actually lie.

This casual relationship to truth and fact may be acceptable in an election, where a bad outcome cam be reversed if the electorate so choose. Referendums, and especially that referendum, are not elections with transient results. That referendum in particular imposed a direction of travel on the electorate that will impact the wealth and status of the UK for years, possibly generations, to come. It was much too far reaching an issue to be allowed to turn on a simple majority, and to be allowed to be run on the basis of wild and uncorroborated claims by interest groups answerable to no-one but themselves.

2 Inevitably! All revenues go to the treasury. Very little government income is hypothecated. Did anyone really think this would happen? Was the claim actually made, or merely implied?

3 Quite - but hope springs eternal! Always remember that popular get-out "that was then, this is now!"

4 Yes, a claim made mainly by Osborne, having cherry picked the worst case projections made by economists on the "stated" assumption that if we voted leave we'd leave - not wait 4 years and then leave. Even then, the result of the vote did cause the £ to fall sharply and also dented GDP sufficiently to cause a mild recession.

5 Wrong in that specific case yes. But other employers have left, notably elements of the more important financial services sector.

6 It made no difference, as we could have developed the AZ vaccine whether or not within the EU vaccine programme. We actually released it for UK use under the aegis of the MHRA, as the EU regulations permit, while still technically EU members.

7 Indeed. But there is no re-writing of history here, just adherence to fact. As I said above, and Paul's quote from the Supreme Court corroborates, as a matter of fact the assurances of Cameron & Co did not, and could not, constitute law - which, with some exceptions around individual parliamentary authorisations to ministers to issue Statutory Instruments - can only be made by Acts of Parliament or by Judges under Common Law. I therefore think your subsequent post referring to the understanding of the wording, itself misunderstands the wording.

8 Hmmm! Bad company, I would say! The US presidential election was (inevitably) held under US jurisdiction, and I make no claim to knowledge in that field. But, accepting the number of legal claims made, and dismissed, in various States, I see no scope to argue that the result was anything other than valid. I have no idea What Trump believes, or if he actually believes anything, but he seems to have the same worrying instinct to remain in power that a number of dictators around the world demonstrate. Were he to be re-elected I think the USA, and the world, would have a very big problem!
userGremlin
Posted: 14 January 2022 6:35 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:09 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 4:10 PM .................................
1 Well that is what politicians do - they lie. whatever type of flavour, they lie.
2 Money saved to be spent entirely on the NHS? Err no
3 Vat scrapped - Err no (tho rumour has it a new “purchase tax” will be fairer - we can but hope
4 Even a vote to leave would cause economic collapse - Err, no it didn’t
5 Nissan Sunderland will up sticks and leave - Nope! - didn’t happen. Quite the opposite in Fact
6 Even I thought opting out of the EU vaccine programme was a huge mistake. How wrong I was…..
7 There was lies a deceit on both sides - and given that it was made clear to all of us, the participants in the Referendum that the result WOULD be legally binding, it is disappointing that some are still trying to re-write history
8 But they are in good company - Trump supporters still maintain THEY won.

1 Not in my opinion, but I may be applying a higher bar than you before levelling the allegation of lying. For me, a lie is a deliberate and knowingly false claim or declaration. What I think politicians are guilty of is dissembling, being ridiculously over optimistic, exaggerating for electoral benefit, selecting only "facts" that favour their political agendas, "spinning" news etc, which I don't much like, but accept goes with the territory. But, with the exception of the present PM, I would not allege that they set out to knowingly tell lies. Most seem to have sufficient common sense to realise that, especially in today's world of instant media, they are hostages to fortune if they actually lie.

This casual relationship to truth and fact may be acceptable in an election, where a bad outcome cam be reversed if the electorate so choose. Referendums, and especially that referendum, are not elections with transient results. That referendum in particular imposed a direction of travel on the electorate that will impact the wealth and status of the UK for years, possibly generations, to come. It was much too far reaching an issue to be allowed to turn on a simple majority, and to be allowed to be run on the basis of wild and uncorroborated claims by interest groups answerable to no-one but themselves.

2 Inevitably! All revenues go to the treasury. Very little government income is hypothecated. Did anyone really think this would happen? Was the claim actually made, or merely implied?

3 Quite - but hope springs eternal! Always remember that popular get-out "that was then, this is now!"

4 Yes, a claim made mainly by Osborne, having cherry picked the worst case projections made by economists on the "stated" assumption that if we voted leave we'd leave - not wait 4 years and then leave. Even then, the result of the vote did cause the £ to fall sharply and also dented GDP sufficiently to cause a mild recession.

5 Wrong in that specific case yes. But other employers have left, notably elements of the more important financial services sector.

6 It made no difference, as we could have developed the AZ vaccine whether or not within the EU vaccine programme. We actually released it for UK use under the aegis of the MHRA, as the EU regulations permit, while still technically EU members.

7 Indeed. But there is no re-writing of history here, just adherence to fact. As I said above, and Paul's quote from the Supreme Court corroborates, as a matter of fact the assurances of Cameron & Co did not, and could not, constitute law - which, with some exceptions around individual parliamentary authorisations to ministers to issue Statutory Instruments - can only be made by Acts of Parliament or by Judges under Common Law. I therefore think your subsequent post referring to the understanding of the wording, itself misunderstands the wording.

8 Hmmm! Bad company, I would say! The US presidential election was (inevitably) held under US jurisdiction, and I make no claim to knowledge in that field. But, accepting the number of legal claims made, and dismissed, in various States, I see no scope to argue that the result was anything other than valid. I have no idea What Trump believes, or if he actually believes anything, but he seems to have the same worrying instinct to remain in power that a number of dictators around the world demonstrate. Were he to be re-elected I think the USA, and the world, would have a very big problem!


The only thing that anyone could possibly say about the above is that at the very least you worked hard on the spin.

Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?

Just curious….
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 14 January 2022 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.
userGremlin
Posted: 14 January 2022 7:50 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.


Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).

So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.

It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.

userBarryd999
Posted: 14 January 2022 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.


Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).

So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.

It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



I dont think the Brexiteers can claim Royal Dutch Shell Moving to the UK with a handful of jobs a real Brexit win although it kind of is but for all the wrong reasons.

You need to read something without the spin.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/shell-move-to-uk-brexit/

Meanwhile over the past few years the Netherlands has done extremely well at sucking up Brexit blighty fleeing businesses.
userGremlin
Posted: 15 January 2022 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Barryd999 - 2022-01-14 9:42 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.


Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).

So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.

It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



I dont think the Brexiteers can claim Royal Dutch Shell Moving to the UK with a handful of jobs a real Brexit win although it kind of is but for all the wrong reasons.

You need to read something without the spin.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/shell-move-to-uk-brexit/

Meanwhile over the past few years the Netherlands has done extremely well at sucking up Brexit blighty fleeing businesses.


Oh Dear - a hatchet job trying to make out the U.K. is more attractive to nasty oil companies like Shell. You have to be a bit dim to swallow that.

One of the actual reasons is the higher taxation levels in Holland, plus the fact that having a company working out of two centres was always difficult and even more so now that the U.K. is no longer in the EU. Shell had a complicated “two types of share” system that was “odd” even when both centres were in the EU in that it was incorporated in the U.K. but had Dutch Tax Residency. Barmy or what!

Couple that with the fact that the Dutch government charges a 15% Dividend Tax on ALL multinational companies - and you can see the attraction of Brexit U.K.



userBarryd999
Posted: 15 January 2022 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11458
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Gremlin - 2022-01-15 9:49 AM

Barryd999 - 2022-01-14 9:42 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.


Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).

So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.

It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



I dont think the Brexiteers can claim Royal Dutch Shell Moving to the UK with a handful of jobs a real Brexit win although it kind of is but for all the wrong reasons.

You need to read something without the spin.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/shell-move-to-uk-brexit/

Meanwhile over the past few years the Netherlands has done extremely well at sucking up Brexit blighty fleeing businesses.


Oh Dear - a hatchet job trying to make out the U.K. is more attractive to nasty oil companies like Shell. You have to be a bit dim to swallow that.

One of the actual reasons is the higher taxation levels in Holland, plus the fact that having a company working out of two centres was always difficult and even more so now that the U.K. is no longer in the EU. Shell had a complicated “two types of share” system that was “odd” even when both centres were in the EU in that it was incorporated in the U.K. but had Dutch Tax Residency. Barmy or what!

Couple that with the fact that the Dutch government charges a 15% Dividend Tax on ALL multinational companies - and you can see the attraction of Brexit U.K.





Ah right. So how do you explain these then. Take your pick

https://tinyurl.com/bdectjb5
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 15 January 2022 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.

Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 January 2022 6:37 PM
Subject: RE: Oh dreay dreary me!
 


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Giggle........

........

Edited by pelmetman 2022-01-15 6:38 PM
userGremlin
Posted: 16 January 2022 10:29 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Brian Kirby - 2022-01-15 3:14 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.



I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.

And now you say it’s too early to say.

Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?

And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.

Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.
userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 16 January 2022 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Gremlin - 2022-01-16 10:29 AM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-15 3:14 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.



I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.

And now you say it’s too early to say.

Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?

And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.

Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.


What figures would they be?
userGremlin
Posted: 16 January 2022 11:47 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:22 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 10:29 AM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-15 3:14 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.



I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.

And now you say it’s too early to say.

Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?

And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.

Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.


What figures would they be?


OECD
userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 16 January 2022 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
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Gremlin - 2022-01-16 11:47 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:22 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 10:29 AM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-15 3:14 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.



I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.

And now you say it’s too early to say.

Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?

And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.

Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.


What figures would they be?


OECD


That's a big data set.

https://data.oecd.org/united-kingdom.htm

Which ones look "really good " to you?
userGremlin
Posted: 16 January 2022 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
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CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:58 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 11:47 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:22 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 10:29 AM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-15 3:14 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.



I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.

And now you say it’s too early to say.

Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?

And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.

Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.


What figures would they be?


OECD


That's a big data set.

https://data.oecd.org/united-kingdom.htm

Which ones look "really good " to you?


Why don’t you simply Google “OECD U.K. forecast predicts U.K. tops G7”

That should narrow it down a bit.

There is a good article on “City Am” by Jack Barnett 1st Dec last year.

See if you skill set runs to finding that.

It’s a good review - outlining the good and the bad for the U.K. - inflation and utility prices in particular.

Loads of ammunition for you.

userBarryd999
Posted: 16 January 2022 12:31 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

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But the figures (depending on which data set you look at of course) mean nothing. They wont show what they would have been had we not left the EU. They would have been much better had we not left the EU of course and the reason for that and why Brexit is and will continue to be a failure is we are acting like we never left. Its business as usual its just when we used to be able to walk normally we now have a limp.

Until there is some kind of Sunlit Uplands brave new future plan how can it ever be better? What is the point of leaving the EU only to carry on as we were before?

Whats the plan? Its not Singapore on Thames anymore clearly as they bottled that one. Perhaps there never was a plan eh? The only plan was to get Johnson into number 10. Credit to him there, he pulled it off and its been such a roaring success hasn't it?
userGremlin
Posted: 16 January 2022 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
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Barryd999 - 2022-01-16 12:31 PM

But the figures (depending on which data set you look at of course) mean nothing. They wont show what they would have been had we not left the EU. They would have been much better had we not left the EU of course and the reason for that and why Brexit is and will continue to be a failure is we are acting like we never left. Its business as usual its just when we used to be able to walk normally we now have a limp.

Until there is some kind of Sunlit Uplands brave new future plan how can it ever be better? What is the point of leaving the EU only to carry on as we were before?

Whats the plan? Its not Singapore on Thames anymore clearly as they bottled that one. Perhaps there never was a plan eh? The only plan was to get Johnson into number 10. Credit to him there, he pulled it off and its been such a roaring success hasn't it?


Tiresome - “everything would be better if we just hadn’t left the EU”.

Ignore what the OECD says, fall back on the Remaniacs Mantra.

userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 16 January 2022 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Forum master

Posts: 2521
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Gremlin - 2022-01-16 12:16 PM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:58 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 11:47 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:22 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 10:29 AM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-15 3:14 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.



I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.

And now you say it’s too early to say.

Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?

And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.

Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.


What figures would they be?


OECD


That's a big data set.

https://data.oecd.org/united-kingdom.htm

Which ones look "really good " to you?


Why don’t you simply Google “OECD U.K. forecast predicts U.K. tops G7”

That should narrow it down a bit.

There is a good article on “City Am” by Jack Barnett 1st Dec last year.

See if you skill set runs to finding that.

It’s a good review - outlining the good and the bad for the U.K. - inflation and utility prices in particular.

Loads of ammunition for you.



Yes I thought that might be what you were referring to. But in reality we haven't performed that well, we fell the furthest and so have recovered better, but still not to pre-pandemic levels, which other G7 countries have achieved.

"The high growth print, however, has been partly driven by Britain suffering one of the worst hits from the Covid-19 crisis, with its economy sinking 9.7 per cent last year."
userGremlin
Posted: 16 January 2022 1:16 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 12:58 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 12:16 PM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:58 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 11:47 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:22 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 10:29 AM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-15 3:14 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.



I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.

And now you say it’s too early to say.

Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?

And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.

Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.


What figures would they be?


OECD


That's a big data set.

https://data.oecd.org/united-kingdom.htm

Which ones look "really good " to you?


Why don’t you simply Google “OECD U.K. forecast predicts U.K. tops G7”

That should narrow it down a bit.

There is a good article on “City Am” by Jack Barnett 1st Dec last year.

See if you skill set runs to finding that.

It’s a good review - outlining the good and the bad for the U.K. - inflation and utility prices in particular.

Loads of ammunition for you.



Yes I thought that might be what you were referring to. But in reality we haven't performed that well, we fell the furthest and so have recovered better, but still not to pre-pandemic levels, which other G7 countries have achieved.

"The high growth print, however, has been partly driven by Britain suffering one of the worst hits from the Covid-19 crisis, with its economy sinking 9.7 per cent last year."


Really ?

Only two days ago, even the Guardian and the BBC were reporting that the U.K. economy had recovered to above pre-pandemic levels.

userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 16 January 2022 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Forum master

Posts: 2521
2000500


Gremlin - 2022-01-16 1:16 PM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 12:58 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 12:16 PM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:58 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 11:47 AM

CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 11:22 AM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 10:29 AM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-15 3:14 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-14 7:50 PM
Brian Kirby - 2022-01-14 6:56 PM
Gremlin - 2022-01-14 6:35 PM...........................
Did you hear that Royal Dutch Shell moved its HQ to the U.K.?
Just curious….

So what? Did you hear that one swallow does not make a summer? What about all the birds going the other way? It is simply too early to declare victory or defeat. This will take years to resolve.

Royal Dutch Shell is one heck of a swallow. (Real opportunity of a pun there - but I’ll be good).
So may I refer you to your 5) above where you infer the U.K. Financial ServicesAre somehow at risk.
It never was - tho the EU’s stated desire to set up a Robin Hood tax whereby any and every financial transaction would have been subject to an EU inspired tax was one reason why those actually in FS voted to leave.



Ok then, if not a swallow - a goose! I'll even go to an albatross, to show goodwill. But, quoting single companies who did/didn't is a bit of a thin argument. The exceptions that prove the rule? I'd prefer to reserve judgement until we can see how it develops. As above, I think this will play out over many years. I think it's too early to claim victory or defeat.

5 In return for which I would refer you to this, which seems to be saying otherwise: https://tinyurl.com/mva7enjy It isn't just the number of jobs, but the relative earnings power those jobs represent. But, as above, we'll have to wait to see.



I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.

And now you say it’s too early to say.

Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?

And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.

Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.


What figures would they be?


OECD


That's a big data set.

https://data.oecd.org/united-kingdom.htm

Which ones look "really good " to you?


Why don’t you simply Google “OECD U.K. forecast predicts U.K. tops G7”

That should narrow it down a bit.

There is a good article on “City Am” by Jack Barnett 1st Dec last year.

See if you skill set runs to finding that.

It’s a good review - outlining the good and the bad for the U.K. - inflation and utility prices in particular.

Loads of ammunition for you.



Yes I thought that might be what you were referring to. But in reality we haven't performed that well, we fell the furthest and so have recovered better, but still not to pre-pandemic levels, which other G7 countries have achieved.

"The high growth print, however, has been partly driven by Britain suffering one of the worst hits from the Covid-19 crisis, with its economy sinking 9.7 per cent last year."


Really ?

Only two days ago, even the Guardian and the BBC were reporting that the U.K. economy had recovered to above pre-pandemic levels.



And?

You said that the figures were really good, they are not. Other G7 countries didn't fall as far and consequently have recovered earlier without needing similar record growth.
userGremlin
Posted: 16 January 2022 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


Well you said we hadn’t……
userCurtainRaiser
Posted: 16 January 2022 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Forum master

Posts: 2521
2000500


Gremlin - 2022-01-16 2:15 PM

Well you said we hadn’t……


I was quoting from your link.
userGremlin
Posted: 16 January 2022 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 169
1002525


CurtainRaiser - 2022-01-16 2:32 PM

Gremlin - 2022-01-16 2:15 PM

Well you said we hadn’t……


I was quoting from your link.


I don’t think so.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 January 2022 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Gremlin - 2022-01-16 10:29 AM
.........................
I would agree that it is too early to say - and it’s good that you admit that - because up until you wrote the above your take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster.
And now you say it’s too early to say.
Mind you, the latest figures for pretty much all of 2021 are really good don’t you think?
And as the forecasts for U.K. growth compared to the other G7 ……. Very encouraging
But I don’t hold much truck with Forecasts. So happy to wait and see. But it is encouraging that the Project Fear Doom mongers have been sidelined.
Apart from this funny little outpost of the frustrated and bewildered.

Not sure there was much of an admission involved - more a STOBO, I think. But my "take has been that Brexit has thus far been a disaster."?? I think not, any more than I think it is proving a roaring success. I don't think I've ever expressed an opinion on Brexit, either way, in such hyperbolic terms. But, I do think the balance of experience is that the unfinished Brexit we presently have is throwing up a number of potentially serious, foreseeable but apparently unforeseen, problems. The problem lies in trying to separate the effects of Covid from those of Brexit, and few serious observers have, to date, I think wholly reasonably, tried to do this.

Notwithstanding those reservations, the proponents of Brexit held it out to be an easy and beneficial win - all that stuff about easy trade deals, "tanking back control" - of things we could already control - if our government had only decided to do so, asserting our "Sovereignty" which, to me, had never been eroded in real world terms (quite apart from the fact that we had elected to join - not been dragooned into doing so), and the fact that despite our 40+ years of membership we had never fixed our fundamental lagging productivity record compared to the other comparable member states (our fault - not theirs), preferring to import stuff from anywhere that was cheaper.

Good 2021 figures? That judgement depends, IMO, on three things. First, the extent to which Covid clouds the picture, second the yardstick against which one choose to judge the figures, and third whose figures, over what timescale, are being used. But, one year, in a pandemic? Swallows and summers?

Ditto forecasts. At every turn the Brexit effect, whatever that may be, is largely hidden within the Covid effect. So, as above, I think it will take years before we begin to get "serious" analysis of the pros and cons. What we're getting at present is little more than Brexiters looking for good news on their project, and remainers being more sceptical. So, as above, we shall have to wait for the mists to clear.

But, overall, you're right, I'm a Brexit sceptic. Nevertheless, if the Brexiters eventually manage to present convincing evidence that the UK is doing better than it could have done while in the EU, I shall be happy - assuming I live long enough to see the dawn of that day. That's all they have to do so, as you've now joined them, off you go! Chop, chop!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 January 2022 9:06 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


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Brian Kirby - 2022-01-17 7:44 PM

But, overall, you're right, I'm a Brexit sceptic. Nevertheless, if the Brexiters eventually manage to present convincing evidence that the UK is doing better than it could have done while in the EU, I shall be happy - assuming I live long enough to see the dawn of that day. That's all they have to do so, as you've now joined them, off you go! Chop, chop!


There's no point as you'll still deny it ...........

For example.......Has Brexit caused the wage rise for lorry drivers and the hospitality industry etc etc? ..........

Off you go!......Chop Chop! ...........

Edited by pelmetman 2022-01-18 9:09 AM
userBarryd999
Posted: 18 January 2022 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Oh deary deary me!
 


The special one

Posts: 11458
5000500010001001001001002525
Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


pelmetman - 2022-01-18 9:06 AM

Brian Kirby - 2022-01-17 7:44 PM

But, overall, you're right, I'm a Brexit sceptic. Nevertheless, if the Brexiters eventually manage to present convincing evidence that the UK is doing better than it could have done while in the EU, I shall be happy - assuming I live long enough to see the dawn of that day. That's all they have to do so, as you've now joined them, off you go! Chop, chop!


There's no point as you'll still deny it ...........

For example.......Has Brexit caused the wage rise for lorry drivers and the hospitality industry etc etc? ..........

Off you go!......Chop Chop! ...........


its caused a colossal shortage of workers in both thats for sure leading to huge problems in supply of both goods and hospitality.
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