enodreven Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Hi, Just wanted to find out what people actually think about recycling, Its just that a few year ago our local tenants association used to collect paper so most people used to save their newspapers and every week or two the organisers would come around and collect it. However, every so often we would get a circular telling use to stop saving the paper as the company that was recycling couldn't take any more at the moment. ? Now I know things have moved on since then, but if companies couldn't handle the small amount that our local community was producing how and where are these companies that are suposed to be handling the millions and millions of tons that must be being collect now. I know of 3 very large waste paper handling companies that have closed down over the last 10 years so where are the new ones and where are these mountains of paper being stored. This also goes for glass bottles do recycled glass bottles have any markings as i can't say I have ever noticed and what about the plastic is recycled plastic marked ? Just my rant, but would like to know just what actually happens to all of the stuff we recycle ? as while it seems like the right thing to do, surly it would be better if it wasn't produced in the first place, Could we end up making such a big industry out of Recycling perhaps employing thousands of people such that we end up dissapearing up our own back??? could we get to a point where we have to use first quality packaging to support the recycling industry ?? now there's a thought what do you think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 My local council collects waste paper every 2 weeks from home, and supply the bags to store it in. The method is a success and of course it goes towards keeping the rates down. What I do object to if it comes about is the sorting of various wastes such as glass,plastic, and paper, but that we are told if not done correctly will result in a fine. Once again it would appear that some councils are flexing their muscles, basicly asking you to do something, and if not done correctly they fine you. The article in the papers a short while back about a chap whose paper bill found its way into a incorrect collection bag, ( he had no idea how it got there) was taken to court and fined, now has a criminal record, you could not make it up. If this type of bullying becomes the norm, I will stop entering into the scheme. I also predict that if this type of behavior continues there will be much more illegal fly tipping to ruin the towns and countryside. So to answer the recycling question , if its done properly then everyone will help, bring in strong arm tactics and it will desend in chaos. chas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Middlesbrough council has the worst recycling record on Teesside. They've been collecting paper for a few years but only started collecting glass and cans at the kerbside last year - and I'm not sure whether all parts of the borough are covered or not. On top of that we often find that the people who collect the waste are so haphazard when emptying the bags of paper that we get litter blowing around. Other local councils collect cardboard, plastic and garden waste as well. We have five compost bins so aren't bothered about garden waste but the only way we have of recycling cardboard and plastic is to take it to the main dump about 4 miles away. Unless you have a car full the benefit to the environment is negated by diesel use. We can store cardboard in the garage but plastic is too bulky so has to go to landfill. We've complained to the council about the litter and abysmal service on a number of occasions but the best that happens is an improvement for a few weeks before reversion. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi I'm not sure that it keeps your rates down, in actual fact the extra work involved plus the extra bags and extra storage most proberbly adds another burden on the existing rates ? chas - 2007-06-21 7:00 AM " My local council collects waste paper every 2 weeks from home, and supply the bags to store it in. The method is a success and of course it goes towards keeping the rates down. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 enodreven - 2007-06-21 7:45 AM I'm not sure that it keeps your rates down, in actual fact the extra work involved plus the extra bags and extra storage most proberbly adds another burden on the existing rates ? That could well be right, I must admit I don't know. I read somewhere that the energy costs for producing new steel from recycled steel are 75% less than those involved in producing new steel from scratch - so I suppose the overall economics is a rather complex. I'm a bit too young to remember "make do and mend" from the second world war but I would guess (just for example) that most of us who are parents have, to some extent, dressed our younger children in clothes originally bought for their older siblings and kept because they were nowhere near worn out and it saved us money. However, the main factor that encourages me to recycle is that raw materials from which things are made and land available for landfill are both finite resources so alternative answers must be found from somewhere. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi I agree with the principals its just that I am sceptical and actually think we could be doing it at the wrong end ? so to speak ? As i said above are we going to get into the position of setting up large recycling organisations employing thousands of people, that we end up having to recycle just to keep them going ?. Surly we need to stop the production of so much waste, not recycle it GJH - 2007-06-21 8:15 AM enodreven - 2007-06-21 7:45 AM I'm not sure that it keeps your rates down, in actual fact the extra work involved plus the extra bags and extra storage most proberbly adds another burden on the existing rates ? That could well be right, I must admit I don't know. I read somewhere that the energy costs for producing new steel from recycled steel are 75% less than those involved in producing new steel from scratch - so I suppose the overall economics is a rather complex. I'm a bit too young to remember "make do and mend" from the second world war but I would guess (just for example) that most of us who are parents have, to some extent, dressed our younger children in clothes originally bought for their older siblings and kept because they were nowhere near worn out and it saved us money. However, the main factor that encourages me to recycle is that raw materials from which things are made and land available for landfill are both finite resources so alternative answers must be found from somewhere. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 One thing I don't understand is why glass bottles cannot be returned to the point of sale from where they could be returned to their respective owners for re-use. The delivery lorries would also be carrying goods on their return journeys this way. Instead they have to be sorted into colours, transported to a glass recylcing centre where they are crushed, melted down and turned into ................................................................................................................Glass bottles! Is it just me that finds this awfully wasteful of energy? Apart from that I'm all in favour of recylcing, our local council collects general waste and recycling on alternate weeks and it works pretty well. Our general waste bin is rarely even half full at collection time. One irritant for us is they don't collect plastic in the roadside collections but we have to take it to the local council recycling centre (skip yard) where it can be dealt with. Surely if they can handle it at the skip yard they can collect it kerbside and save us wasting fuel to take it there ourselves. Another irritant for me is that although I pay council tax for my home and business rates for my business premises, I get nothing for my business rates! The council say I'm paying for Police and Fire services but I pay for that in my Council tax don't I? We don't get waste removal of any sort at my business premises, if I want to have any waste removed, even basic packaging, cardboard etc I have to pay extra for it! I don't see that as very fair at all! I can't even take the waste to the recycling centre in my van as vans have to have a council licence to enter the yard! So I'm faced with a choice, pay for it to be removed, or take it in my wife's car once a fortnight, or burn it! D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 enodreven - 2007-06-21 8:28 AM Surly we need to stop the production of so much waste, not recycle it I wouldn't dispute that for one minute. enodreven - 2007-06-21 8:28 AMI agree with the principals its just that I am sceptical and actually think we could be doing it at the wrong end ? so to speak ? As i said above are we going to get into the position of setting up large recycling organisations employing thousands of people, that we end up having to recycle just to keep them going ?. Good point. I think the answer lies in the implementation. In Middlesbrough we still have the weekly wheely-bin collection and I'm sure that many of the bins, like ours, will only be half full much of the time. The recycling collection, which happens fortnightly, is undertaken by a company to which the council has let a contract and which employs its own workers. In neighbouring Redcar & Cleveland, which has a much better recycling record, the approach was to implement a fundamental change to the method of collecting waste. There is still a weekly collection but certain items are collected one week and the others in the second week. The same staff are used but the end result is that, in the main, only that refuse which cannot be recycled goes to landfill. People who are worried about their bins smelling and other problems which might arise from fortnightly collection are given advice to prevent such problems. On top of that, the collection rota was reorganised so that household collections happen over 4 days each week. That leaves Mondays available for bulky waste collections (junk jobs) and the consequent reduction in waiting time reduces fly-tipping because it is much more convenient for residents. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-06-21 8:49 AM One thing I don't understand is why glass bottles cannot be returned to the point of sale from where they could be returned to their respective owners for re-use. Is it just me that finds this awfully wasteful of energy? No Dave, it isn't only you. When I was a kid the vast majority of bottles were returnable, for a small deposit - useful pocket money boost :-) What happened then was that companies realised that they could save money by issuing non-returnable bottles and saving themselves the costs of recycling - which, of course, then fell on the local authorities. davenewell@home - 2007-06-21 8:49 AM Another irritant for me is that although I pay council tax for my home and business rates for my business premises, I get nothing for my business rates! The council say I'm paying for Police and Fire services but I pay for that in my Council tax don't I? We don't get waste removal of any sort at my business premises, if I want to have any waste removed, even basic packaging, cardboard etc I have to pay extra for it! I don't see that as very fair at all! I can't even take the waste to the recycling centre in my van as vans have to have a council licence to enter the yard! So I'm faced with a choice, pay for it to be removed, or take it in my wife's car once a fortnight, or burn it! I can understand your frustration Dave but I fear there is little the council can do about it as business rates is a national system which was introduced as the same time as the community charge (poll tax). Business rates are collected by local authorities but passed on to central government which then doles out the money in the way it thinks fit. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I don't object to paying business rates (well not much anyway) but I would like to see some return for my money. High street shops get a wheely bin that is emptied by the normal refuse collectors but because I'm in an industrial unit I don't! Doesn't sound very fair to me. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Hi, Interesting comments, Going back on my original comments are we/ the local councils doing it at the right end ?? it seems we are all in favour of recycling, but is this helping the environment, as it is so speak "After the event" you can't recycle unless you have used a first time product, or can you ? I take Dave's point about bottles, I actually think if we started to tackle the environmental impact before we produce the goods/packaging and look to see if its really necessary and if it could be done another way we would achive a better result, rather than just setting up recycling arrangements ?? Question's Is it more environmentally friendly to serve food on china plates with metal knives and forks taking the washing-up in account or is it more environmentally friendly to serve it on paper/cardboard with plastic knives and forks, which damages the environment less, ?? Why aren't the manufacturers who's products go into glass bottles made to set up a process that reuses the same bottles ? Why are some products double wrapped, both wrappers having the manufacturers details, once would surly be enough ? wouldn't it ? Why don't the council make these and other standards as part of the planning application, surly this would have more impact on the reduction of waste and recycling I am sure you can think of other ways that we can reduce the amount of waste before it is produced ? Add your suggestions below ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 In general I agree with everything you say and yes it has to be better to not produce as much waste in the first place rather than have to recycle so much but it simply cannot be done overnight. It will take years, if not decades, to change everyone's way of thinking and working so that less waste is produced in the first place. There is also an employment cost because somewhere along the line there are businesses employing people to manufacture the packaging. If less is used then there won't be as many jobs in that industry, simple economics I'm afraid. The employment issue becomes a double edged sword though because if we produced less waste in the first place there would be fewer jobs in those industries which produce the waste. Also, as there would be less waste to recycle there would be a reduction of jobs in the recycling industry too. If less waste is made and recycling is therefore reduced then less energy will be required, good thing you might say but if less energy is required then power stations might have to close causing more job losses. Waste and recycling is a global issue, not just local to us and as such any changes to the current way of doing things will have a global knock on effect in a variety of industries. Sadly there is no simple answer. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 All of these are good points but, sadly, difficult to implement without commitment from those with power to do so. Manufacturers which supply products in glass bottles will only go back to reusable bottles if it is cheaper for them (which might be achieved by a tax on non-reusable ones I suppose). I recall my early days working with mainframe computers. Removable hard disk drives had been introduced because it was cheaper to pay operators to change them than to have larger banks of fixed disks. Within a few years fixed disks were back because manufacturing costs had dropped, more miniaturisation meant less space was needed and labour costs had increased, For councils to be able to use such environmental considerations in planning applications would require changes to national legislation - and councils are always aware that if they turn down applications from large businesses then they might be turning away employment opportunities. As Dave says, a global problem which will take a long term solution. Still, if all of us do our own little bit the cumulative effect will be large and that might make the people with power to do more sit up and take notice. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-06-21 9:25 AM High street shops get a wheely bin that is emptied by the normal refuse collectors but because I'm in an industrial unit I don't! Doesn't sound very fair to me. Yes, does seem stupid doesn't it. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I was enjoying my mid morning cuppa/tea break until I saw this topic! We now have three refuse trucks when we used to have one. The first is for household, the second is for recyclable (tins plastic etc) and the third for Garden waste. Not sure how three large wagons doing the same round actually helps the environment? I try to recycle a lot – I am a regular at our local dump which is run very well on the whole, but I was told that I could only bring my old patio slabs down to the dump 5 or 6 at a time despite being able to take all thirty in the back of my Discovery at once! So I gave them to a builder who was pleased to have then as good quality hardcore. He told me that they have to pay the Local Council for recycled hard core but that donors are only able to take the donated hardcore to the designated dump in small bags, one at a time. We agreed that the whole system was ludicrous and seems to be set up for those that cannot be bothered to end up “fly tipping” which is one of my pet hates. I also saw on the local news the guy who went to the tip in his old Series Land Rover (easy to hose out and his “fun vehicle”) and was told that he was not allowed in! Why? Because some idiot had defined such a vehicle as “commercial”. Do the people running these recycling centres actually WANT us to recycle? Or is it just jobs for the boys? Previously on this topic a lady recommended a website where you can post your unwanted stuff as long as it was free. I had a look at the website but did not make a note of it stupidly – if anyone knows of it – could it be posted again. The concept of recycling is good – but the reality in the UK today seems woeful. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 I'm afraid most of you are having the wool pulled over your eyes,with the talk of councils recycling up to 35-40% of your waste. What they really mean is that they are putting 30-40% less waste to landfill, but it has to go somewhere, so where do you think it goes ? In the case of plastics, most councils bale the plastics into 2 or 3 main types, film,bottles and rigid this is then usually exported to another country who will very often ..............................Put it to landfill. (eg China.) Now I cant speak for other materials because I'm not in that business. But what really annoys me are the "greenies" who attempt to make me feel guilty because I throw food waste etc into the bin, they say we should all be forced to compost our food waste, and that our bins only need emptying once a month. Er hello, reality check, I dont have a garden, and nor do a lot of others, hence nowhere to put a compost bin,and even if I did have one, I have no need for compost, but I suppose I could always avertise it for sale in the local post office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Some interesting comments but the reality is not always what it seems. As an example the recycling of glass, especially glass bottles and containers has been mentioned. Glass recycling at bottle banks has been used for years (Cetainly in use when I worked in the glass industry in the late sixties) and the only recent change has been the provision of multi-banks for sorting glass into white, green, brown etc. Only white glass can be used for any new production the other colours can only be used for "Low Colour Quality" containers such as brown beer bottles. The glass is crushed into Cullet and then added to production at an agreed percentage. To the best of my knowledge production is not carried out with 100% cullet. The problem with returning bottles is, that to be used, they have to be first inspected to ensure that there is no damage especially to the neck (Fill requires a near perfect filler neck to avoid spillage). They then have to be thoroughly sterilised, especially for food use or products that must not be contaminated such as medicines. This has a high labour cost/content in collection, inspection and processing and it is much cheaper to use new bottles and convert old bottles to cullet. The mass use of glass containers has steadily declined with the demise of the milk bottle and plastics now used in many places where glass was the norm. Sorting out the contents of bottle banks where the bottles can be of many types, sizes and quality and from many different countries (eg. Wine bottles) makes re-use totally uneconomic except as Cullet. Taking the point about our separating waste streams only to find the waste is then just landfilled or re-mixed definitely does happen. I have seen a waste collection vehicle empty several colour bottle banks into a single container. The exception to this is where the containers are changed over and the full container is then taken for reprocessing. The real answer is, as has been mentioned, good Waste Management at the point of production or packaging to reduce the volume of waste produced. As an example why can we not just buy a shirt off the rail without it being packed in a bag with various clips, collar supports etc. The hangers are re-usable and the shirt will have to be ironed if folded and packaged anyway. As to Councils charging householders for waste removal over a certain weight or volume and/or prosecution for failure to sort waste "Correctly" >:-( >:-( >:-( Regards, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 "The problem with returning bottles is, that to be used, they have to be first inspected to ensure that there is no damage especially to the neck (Fill requires a near perfect filler neck to avoid spillage). They then have to be thoroughly sterilised, especially for food use or products that must not be contaminated such as medicines." I accept that you speak from experience but surely this has been going on in the milk delivery industry for decades and is still happening. The foreign bottles can be crushed to "cullett" but why can't the UK bottles be returned to their owners for sorting, sterilising and re-use? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 davenewell@home - 2007-06-21 6:52 PM I accept that you speak from experience but surely this has been going on in the milk delivery industry for decades and is still happening. The foreign bottles can be crushed to "cullett" but why can't the UK bottles be returned to their owners for sorting, sterilising and re-use? I think the answer was partly in Mike's post - "This has a high labour cost/content in collection, inspection and processing and it is much cheaper to use new bottles and convert old bottles to cullet. " Also relevant, perhaps, is the stance of global drinks producers. The BBC's report of the Cadbury Schweppes decision to cut its workforce, announced yesterday includes the following: "The reorganisation will cost Cadbury about £450m in a one-off charge. Cadbury now expects to sell off its drinks division. But it said that as a result, its profit margins should increase from 10.1% to the mid-teens by 2011. "Over the past three years, we have made great strides in improving our business performance," said Cadbury chief executive Todd Stitzer. "The plans announced today represent the next step in transforming our confectionery company from being the biggest global confectionery company to being the biggest and the best."" Full report at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6766159.stm Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 For Dave Newell Sadly the answer to your question is that with the tax we have to pay on income both via income tax and NIC's we cannot compete with the rest of the world. So whilst it lasts we can consume a great deal and ship our waste to places that have far lower labour costs such as China. I am not saying this is wrong - just that in the longer term it is in-sustainable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Maybe I'm being dense but surely if the milk industry can clean, sterilise and re-use milk bottles by the million on a daily basis then how can it be too labour intensive? The soft drinks industry used to do it. I, like Graham and no doubt many others, remember supplementing my pocket money by taking empties back to the corner shop from where they were collected by the truck that delivered the next lot of full pop bottles and returned to the plant to be checked, cleaned, sterilised, refilled and re-used. Glass is a fantastic material because it can easily be cleaned and sterilised, it doesn't pick up odours, tastes or anything unpleasant from its contents, unlike some plastics. I have seen machines that can inspect the threads of a bolt for damage at the rate of hundreds of thousands per hour. If technology can do this then it can inspect the filler neck of bottles. I'm sorry, but as yet I don't accept that re-using glass bottles is more expensive than crushing them to make new bottles. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Dave Newell - 2007-06-22 8:31 AM I have seen machines that can inspect the threads of a bolt for damage at the rate of hundreds of thousands per hour. If technology can do this then it can inspect the filler neck of bottles. I'm sorry, but as yet I don't accept that re-using glass bottles is more expensive than crushing them to make new bottles. I think the answer as to why re-use is no longer widespread may lie in where the expense is borne. Drinks companies which got rid of the machinery which enabled bottle re-use in the past won't invest in new plant unless they see profit in it. The cost of recycling is spread across the whole of the community so the company's share of the cost is smaller. It isn't that companies can't do it, it's that many won't do it - in the same way that, instead of training their own apprentices, many companies demand ready trained people. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Dave Newell - 2007-06-22 8:31 AM Maybe I'm being dense but surely if the milk industry can clean, sterilise and re-use milk bottles by the million on a daily basis then how can it be too labour intensive? The soft drinks industry used to do it. I, like Graham and no doubt many others, remember supplementing my pocket money by taking empties back to the corner shop from where they were collected by the truck that delivered the next lot of full pop bottles and returned to the plant to be checked, cleaned, sterilised, refilled and re-used. Glass is a fantastic material because it can easily be cleaned and sterilised, it doesn't pick up odours, tastes or anything unpleasant from its contents, unlike some plastics. I have seen machines that can inspect the threads of a bolt for damage at the rate of hundreds of thousands per hour. If technology can do this then it can inspect the filler neck of bottles. I'm sorry, but as yet I don't accept that re-using glass bottles is more expensive than crushing them to make new bottles. D. Hello Dave, The milk industry was to some extent unique in bottle use because the milkman used to collect the used bottles at the doorstep and crate them for re-processing. That is greatly different to throwing bottles into a re-cycling bin or taking small quantities of recyclable bottles back to individual shops for collection. With Just-in-time production the processors need a steady and guaranteed supply of bottles. Most of the economic case for returning and re-using went out of the door with the move away from home delivery and collection, supermarket purchasing and switch to plastics. There is also a weight penalty to be considered when using glass versus plastics. You are quite correct about using machines to carry out inspection. These did exist and where I worked were referred to as The Automatic Indian. They replaced manual labour, which was at the factory mainly Asian workers due to the heat in glass furnace rooms. These workers watched bottles going across in front of fluorescent lights and regularly sampled by measurement of bottles with measuring callipers. The machine used optics, sensors and light to look for flaws in the bottle and carried out also a measurement of the bottle neck to ensure that it was within tolerance. (Glass has to be cooled gradually using a Lehr annealing furnace to avoid distortion.) The question then is whether bottling plants would want the cost of these machines plus staff to operate them when they can get new bottles directly from the manufacturer. More machines means a higher carbon footprint. Apart from anything else the greatly increased cost of labour has been a major factor in the changes of method in all types of service and manufacturing industries and this has also had a great impact on the environment. The glass industry is but just one example. Regards, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 Thanks Mike, that answer does make some sense to me but surely the manufacturing of glass bottles is just as labour intensive and therefore expensive? Besides, to recycle glass it has to be sorted into clear and coloured varieties, crushed, melted down before being turned back into bottles and jars. I accept that the machinery and plants are already in existence for the recycling but there would be much less machinery involved in cleaning, sterilising and checking bottles for re-use as they are, wouldn't there? I'm not disputing what you say, you've obviously worked in the industry and I haven't. I'm just trying to get my head round it fully. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted June 22, 2007 Author Share Posted June 22, 2007 Hi, That's very interesting and it sort of goes along with my orginal thread as i really was wondering if they were actually recycling all of the stuff they were collecting. Is there any way of identifying how much of what is collect is actually recycled, do you think that councils have this information as i think it would make interesting reading, because a lot of people are recycling in the thought that they are helping to save the whole planet not just the UK, for their children and if what you say is happening ??? then it must bring the whole thing into question ?? or wouldn't it matter donna miller - 2007-06-21 1:00 PM In the case of plastics, most councils bale the plastics into 2 or 3 main types, film,bottles and rigid this is then usually exported to another country who will very often ..............................Put it to landfill. (eg China.) Now I cant speak for other materials because I'm not in that business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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