You are logged in as a guest. 
  Home Forums Home  Search our Forums Search our Forums    Log in to the Forums Log in to the Forums  register Register on the Forums  

 Forums ->  General Chat -> Chatterbox
Jump to page : FirstPrevious 1 2 Last
Format:  Go
Sajid Javid is white!
AuthorMessage
userBarryd999
Posted: 6 January 2019 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5112
5000100
Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


Oh that made me laugh.

Its my goal in life to make Dave see the light. Its not going well.
userantony1969
Posted: 6 January 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


The special one

Posts: 10906
50005000500100100100100
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


Barryd999 - 2019-01-06 4:19 PM

pelmetman - 2019-01-06 2:51 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-01-06 1:24 PM

pelmetman - 2019-01-06 11:58 AM

Barryd999 - 2019-01-06 11:19 AM

pelmetman - 2019-01-06 9:56 AM

Barryd999 - 2019-01-05 3:40 PM


Jeez!! Dave! We don't need to discredit the vote, Brexiteers or Brexit itself. The government and the Brexiteers have done a perfectly good job of that themselves. I know we went on a bit in 2016 of how it would be a disaster and chaos but nobody, not even me could have predicted what an almighty clusterfcuk it's all turned out to be. I'm somehow no longer angry about it as its just so surreal its hilarious. Instead of the world admiring the Brits they are all just pishing themselves laughing at us with our unicorn mystery ferries and practice traffic jams. What a joke.


What is a joke ..........

Is how your EXPERTS predicted.......

IMMEDIATE... mass job losses......IMMEDIATE......recession etc etc ..........

Yet the UK has actually thrived ...........

Best employment since the 70's.......wages are actually rising for the first time since the last recession .........



Blimey! If you call loosing £500m a week since the vote and plunging from the top of the G7 to the bottom thriving then we really are in trouble.


Blimey!.......are you still peddling that £500m a week myth ..........and having the 7th biggest economy out of a 195 is hardly plunging ...........





Some say its less, maybe £400m but its defo more than the £350 we "don't" pay into the EU every week which wont be going to the NHS.


Oh are we 7th now? I remember you banging on about us being 5th around the time of the vote. Cant imagine why we have slipped.


Rubbish........making airy fairy guesses as to where the economy might of been had we not voted for Brexit is pure cobblers of the highest order ...........

You said 7th ............I suspect where ever we are in the G7......we'll be above France .........





Not me making the analysis Dave but financial experts, world banks and economists. I guess they are all remoaners though so can be dismissed. Can you dismiss the plunge to the bottom of the G7 growth rates though from the top, the fact our car industry is on its arse compared to the rest of Europe, the fact that everything is getting more expensive and the collapse of our currency as airy fairy guesses?


Interesting piece from your Bible regarding UK manufacturing and our "on its arse car industry" ... 2011 from your Bible , that was way before Brexit wasn't it ??? ... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/aug/09/uk-manufacturing-fall-adds-market-turmoil

Edited by antony1969 2019-01-06 7:48 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 January 2019 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Barryd999 - 2019-01-06 6:58 PM

Oh that made me laugh.

Its my goal in life to make Dave see the light. Its not going well.


Oh I saw the light years ago ...........

If you took your head out of Drunkers backside, you'd be able to see it to .......

userpelmetman
Posted: 7 January 2019 10:22 AM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-06 6:19 PM

Just look back at his track record on gas attacks! Even the President of the Royal College of Anaesthetists couldn't persuade him that gassing the occupants of motorhomes without killing someone from time to time was impossible. Mind, he was a true expert in his field, so his opinions were ripe for instant dismissal.



You mean my track record of not believing RCoA experts "are experts in the use of Carbon monoxide as a Anesthetic?" ............


Thank you for your recent email concerning The Daily Mirror article. However, it appears to have given rise to some misunderstanding.

Although the article identifies in the headline that it refers to exhaust fumes, it then goes on to quote from a statement on the Royal College of Anaesthetists' (RCoA) website (http://www.rcoa.ac.uk/news-and-bulletin/rcoa-news-and-statements/statement-alleged-gassing-motor-vehicles).

***Exhaust fumes contain carbon monoxide, which is a poison, and is never used in anaesthetic practice.***

The RCoA statement refers specifically to actual or potential anaesthetic agents as follows:
'It is the view of the College that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious by blowing ether, chloroform or any of the currently used volatile anaesthetic agents, through the window of a motor-home without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time. Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect on the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting. It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a cloth, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray administered directly into a room would be enormous. The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day. Even the more powerful modern volatile agents would need to be delivered in tankerloads of carrier gas by a large compressor. Potential agents, such as the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege are few in number and difficult to obtain. Moreover, these drugs would be too expensive for the average thief to use'.

I hope this clarifies the situation and the RCoA will be asking The Daily Mirror for a correction.

Kind regards,


Website and Publications Officer
Communications Department
Clinical Quality Directorate
The Royal College of Anaesthetists | 35 Red Lion Square | London WC1R 4SG
ANAESTHESIA CLINICAL SERVICES ACCREDITATION (ACSA)

It appears your RCoA experts agree with me Brian ..........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-01-07 10:28 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 January 2019 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Dave, seriously, at what point does that reply endorse the idea that CO could be used as an anaesthetic?

It states that CO is a "poison". Does that tell you nothing about the nature of CO, and the consequences of using it to induce unconsciousness?
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 January 2019 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-07 11:00 AM

Dave, seriously, at what point does that reply endorse the idea that CO could be used as an anaesthetic?

It states that CO is a "poison". Does that tell you nothing about the nature of CO, and the consequences of using it to induce unconsciousness?


Perhaps you can explain how a family of 6 wake up after being robbed in France with mild carbon monoxide poisoning, confirmed by the french hospital they were taken to? ..........

No doubt it was a dodgy fridge and purely by chance they got robbed at the same time .......

How unlucky were they? .........

BTW the RCoA reply proves that they're experts in the use Anesthetics in surgery.......

Not the use of Carbon Monoxide in robberies .........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-01-07 1:37 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 January 2019 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


CO poisoning results, eventually, in death. Mild CO poisoning has a variety of symptoms, but unconsciousness takes about two hours to result. High concentrations are, obviously, more lethal, but the same source (the NHS website, so easily dismissible expert opinion) advises that "loss of consciousness and, in cases where there are very high levels of carbon monoxide, death may occur within minutes".

So essentially, your tea leaf has to hang around for about 2 hours un-noticed waiting for his victims to become unconscious, which seems a bit unlikely while poking a tube from your vehicle exhaust (but through what?) into their van, or turn up with something capable of generating sufficiently large amounts of CO to anaesthetize them quickly (40 tonne truck on full throttle, a tank?) in the knowledge that unless you then lower the concentration very quickly you'll kill them.

There is nothing for me to explain. CO simply could not be used reliably to induce unconsciousness without killing. The reason anaesthetists don't use CO as an anaesthetic is because, in simple terms, it is far too dangerous to administer for that purpose - even under highly controlled, operating theatre, conditions.
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 January 2019 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-07 3:41 PM

So essentially, your tea leaf has to hang around for about 2 hours un-noticed waiting for his victims to become unconscious, which seems a bit unlikely while poking a tube from your vehicle exhaust (but through what?) into their van, or turn up with something capable of generating sufficiently large amounts of CO to anaesthetize them quickly (40 tonne truck on full throttle, a tank?) in the knowledge that unless you then lower the concentration very quickly you'll kill them.



Seeing as the CO alarm in my camper was set off within minutes when it was parked in my mechanics workshop with the cab window open.........I doubt 2 hours would be required to administer enough to prevent folk who are already asleep from waking up ..........

My alarm was set off by the exhaust fumes of a car engine on tick over..... not a 40 tonne truck .....

BTW you still haven't given an alternative reason for how those 6 campers ended up with CO poisoning .......

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 7 January 2019 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-01-07 5:26 PM………...
1 Seeing as the CO alarm in my camper was set off within minutes when it was parked in my mechanics workshop with the cab window open.........I doubt 2 hours would be required to administer enough to prevent folk who are already asleep from waking up .......... My alarm was set off by the exhaust fumes of a car engine on tick over..... not a 40 tonne truck .....

2 BTW you still haven't given an alternative reason for how those 6 campers ended up with CO poisoning .......

1 Hardly surprising, as the alarm is set to register CO concentrations way below harmful levels. If you are made unconscious by the level of CO you are already dying, so a bit late for the alarm to trigger.

2 Elementary my Dear Watson, there had been some level of CO inside the van. There are any number of rationally possible explanations as to how it might have got there, so what would be the point of speculating?

I'll leave you to work out why only the most logically irrational and improbable cause offers the best explanation!
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 January 2019 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-07 6:00 PM

pelmetman - 2019-01-07 5:26 PM………...
1 Seeing as the CO alarm in my camper was set off within minutes when it was parked in my mechanics workshop with the cab window open.........I doubt 2 hours would be required to administer enough to prevent folk who are already asleep from waking up .......... My alarm was set off by the exhaust fumes of a car engine on tick over..... not a 40 tonne truck .....

2 BTW you still haven't given an alternative reason for how those 6 campers ended up with CO poisoning .......

1 Hardly surprising, as the alarm is set to register CO concentrations way below harmful levels. If you are made unconscious by the level of CO you are already dying, so a bit late for the alarm to trigger.

2 Elementary my Dear Watson, there had been some level of CO inside the van. There are any number of rationally possible explanations as to how it might have got there, so what would be the point of speculating?

I'll leave you to work out why only the most logically irrational and improbable cause offers the best explanation!


1.......Incorrect......CO alarms are set to trigger when UNSAFE levels of CO are reached......Hence the ear piecing alarm designed to wake folk before they become too drowsy to wake .......

2......Incredibly the forums foremost skeptic has failed to produce a credible reason why a camper would fill with CO just prior to the 6 occupants being robbed ...........

You're in that Eygiptian river again Brian............De Nile ................



Edited by pelmetman 2019-01-08 9:55 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 14 January 2019 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-01-08 9:54 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-01-07 6:00 PM
pelmetman - 2019-01-07 5:26 PM………...
1 Seeing as the CO alarm in my camper was set off within minutes when it was parked in my mechanics workshop with the cab window open.........I doubt 2 hours would be required to administer enough to prevent folk who are already asleep from waking up .......... My alarm was set off by the exhaust fumes of a car engine on tick over..... not a 40 tonne truck .....
2 BTW you still haven't given an alternative reason for how those 6 campers ended up with CO poisoning .......

1 Hardly surprising, as the alarm is set to register CO concentrations way below harmful levels. If you are made unconscious by the level of CO you are already dying, so a bit late for the alarm to trigger.
2 Elementary my Dear Watson, there had been some level of CO inside the van. There are any number of rationally possible explanations as to how it might have got there, so what would be the point of speculating?
I'll leave you to work out why only the most logically irrational and improbable cause offers the best explanation!

1.......Incorrect......CO alarms are set to trigger when UNSAFE levels of CO are reached......Hence the ear piecing alarm designed to wake folk before they become too drowsy to wake .......
2......Incredibly the forums foremost skeptic has failed to produce a credible reason why a camper would fill with CO just prior to the 6 occupants being robbed ...........
You're in that Eygiptian river again Brian............De Nile ................

Ahem - point of order!

This is from the HSE Review of alarm setting for toxic gas and
oxygen detectors - ref RR973, 2013.

"4.4.3.1 CO alarms

The performance standard BS EN 50291-1 (2010) specifies the CO concentrations and exposure times at which domestic CO alarms shall activate; these are summarised in Table 4.

Table 4 - Domestic CO alarm levels and exposure times from BS EN 50291-1 (2010)

CO alarm level Must alarm before Must not alarm before (ppm) (min) (min)
30 - 120
50 90 60
100 40 10
300 3 -

Times before which the alarm must not activate are specified (in addition to alarm activation times) to prevent spurious alarms, e.g. from fuel appliances starting up. Guidance on alarm setting for CO alarms can be found in BS EN 50292 (2002). Here, the principle of alarm setting is outlined: CO health effects are related to % carboxyhaemoglobin (COHb) in the blood, which is primarily dependent on the CO concentration and the exposure time. Consequently, the alarm set points in Table 4 are designed to approximate to the COHb curve around 2.5% COHb, which is the guideline value set by the World Health Organisation (WHO, 2000) for protection of vulnerable groups such as the elderly and pregnant women.

The WHO guideline values (given in rounded ppm values) and periods of time-weighted average exposures, which ensure that the COHb level of 2.5% is not exceeded even when a normal subject engages in light or moderate exercise, are:
• 90 ppm for 15 min
• 50 ppm for 30 min
• 25 ppm for 1 hr
• 10 ppm for 8 hr"


You are using a glass half empty argument, which is merely the inverse of my glass half full argument.

The alarms are supposed to trigger before the concentration reaches a dangerous level, at which level the concentration is designated as an unsafe, because time is also taken into account.

As you can see, CO traces at low levels can be tolerated safely for extended periods. There was, so far as I am aware, no suggestion that the CO concentration in the van had been sufficient to render the occupants unconscious, just that there were measurable traces. What the permissible alarm trigger points illustrate is just how difficult it would be to render people of unknown ages or body mass unconscious while robbing them, without accidentally killing them.

So I am not in De Nile - where the biggest risk is the alligators, but you are in De Poo - where the biggest risk is just inhaling!
userpelmetman
Posted: 14 January 2019 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-14 8:34 PM

As you can see, CO traces at low levels can be tolerated safely for extended periods. There was, so far as I am aware, no suggestion that the CO concentration in the van had been sufficient to render the occupants unconscious, just that there were measurable traces. What the permissible alarm trigger points illustrate is just how difficult it would be to render people of unknown ages or body mass unconscious while robbing them, without accidentally killing them.
D


So how did 6 members of the Chadwick family end up with CO poisoning? .............

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 15 January 2019 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Because they were exposed to carbon monoxide: that much is not in dispute. It seems they were also robbed - of what I would consider a relatively high in possessions for people holidaying in a camper. It also seems the robbery and the CO exposure were during the same day/night. The real question is whether the robbery was linked to the CO exposure.

Have a look here - especially at the concentrations of CO required to render people unconscious in short time periods, and at how quickly death follows at those concentrations http://tinyurl.com/jhe49ft

Somehow the robbers were apparently able to judge when the occupants were unconscious before breaking into the van. How, if they were outside?

How would they be able to judge that moment, shortly before death, before entering and before the occupants died?

Why did none of the occupants die, yet all were rendered unconscious? They are of differing ages and sizes, so some should have either remained conscious, or been very close to death.

To me, it is just not feasible that so dangerous and uncertain a method could have been used to more or less simultaneously knock out six people, some sleeping on upper bunks, without someone failing to succumb, or dying.

Far more likely is that fridge or water heater exhaust fumes entered the van, or a defective gas hob generated CO while cooking, and resulted in the build-up of a low concentration of CO, to which the occupants were exposed over several hours while in the van.

Since they all seem to have woken at the same time, at around 6am, it seems improbable that could have been when the effects of the CO poisoning simultaneously wore off, and more probable that they woken by the robbers exiting.

There is just too much improbable speculation and coincidence involved for the robbers to have used exhaust fumes to keep them all unconscious while robbing them.

My conclusion is that they were just the victims of a cruel coincidence. First they were gassed by CO for unknown reasons. Second, they were robbed while they slept.

In the absence of any rational explanation as to how CO could be used to simultaneously anaesthetise six adults without serious (or inadequate!) impact on at least one of them, the only logical explanation is that the two events are unrelated other than by the coincidence of both happening in the course of the same night.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 January 2019 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-15 1:03 PM

Because they were exposed to carbon monoxide: that much is not in dispute. It seems they were also robbed - of what I would consider a relatively high in possessions for people holidaying in a camper. It also seems the robbery and the CO exposure were during the same day/night. The real question is whether the robbery was linked to the CO exposure.



Seeing as many other victims who claimed to have been gassed also described similar symptoms to the Chadwicks, indicates to me that CO is probably the incapacitant used ..........

The suggestion that its a coincident that they got CO poisoning on the same night they were robbed is farcical ............

Why didn't they get gassed every night they were away in their van? .........

userpelmetman
Posted: 15 January 2019 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-15 1:03 PM


My conclusion is that they were just the victims of a cruel coincidence. First they were gassed by CO for unknown reasons. Second, they were robbed while they slept.

.


No doubt we can expect more coincidences this Moho season ..........

userpelmetman
Posted: 15 January 2019 11:13 PM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-15 1:03 PM

To me, it is just not feasible that so dangerous and uncertain a method could have been used to more or less simultaneously knock out six people, some sleeping on upper bunks, without someone failing to succumb, or dying.
.


It would make no difference where anyone slept as CO mixes immediately upon entry as the scientific experiment I highlighted in my thesis proved ..........

I suspect the reason no one has died is because they are exposed to a high level of CO for a short period .........

They only want to keep people asleep to remove their valuables.....not their appendix ...........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 January 2019 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-01-15 11:13 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-01-15 1:03 PM

To me, it is just not feasible that so dangerous and uncertain a method could have been used to more or less simultaneously knock out six people, some sleeping on upper bunks, without someone failing to succumb, or dying.
.


It would make no difference where anyone slept as CO mixes immediately upon entry as the scientific experiment I highlighted in my thesis proved ..........

I suspect the reason no one has died is because they are exposed to a high level of CO for a short period .........

They only want to keep people asleep to remove their valuables.....not their appendix ...........

But you omit to say how the robbers could know the CO concentration inside the van while themselves remaining outside. But look, if having an alarm in your van keeps you feeling safe from robbery while abroad, that's fine by me. I simply don't share your fears, so see no need to install spurious comforts to keep them at bay.

Edited by Brian Kirby 2019-01-16 11:16 AM
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 January 2019 11:42 AM
Subject: RE: Sajid Javid is white!
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 25363
500050005000500050001001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-01-16 11:16 AM

pelmetman - 2019-01-15 11:13 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-01-15 1:03 PM

To me, it is just not feasible that so dangerous and uncertain a method could have been used to more or less simultaneously knock out six people, some sleeping on upper bunks, without someone failing to succumb, or dying.
.


It would make no difference where anyone slept as CO mixes immediately upon entry as the scientific experiment I highlighted in my thesis proved ..........

I suspect the reason no one has died is because they are exposed to a high level of CO for a short period .........

They only want to keep people asleep to remove their valuables.....not their appendix ...........

But you omit to say how the robbers could know the CO concentration inside the van while themselves remaining outside. But look, if having an alarm in your van keeps you feeling safe from robbery while abroad, that's fine by me. I simply don't share your fears, so see no need to install spurious comforts to keep them at bay.


It's simplicity itself Brian ................

You knock on the door ...........

If you get a response you leg it ..........

BTW I think a CO alarm is a sensible addition to any camper, not only as a useful warning if some scroat attempts to use CO to rob us........but just in case our gas fridge or heating goes on the blink .......



Edited by pelmetman 2019-01-16 11:46 AM
Jump to page : FirstPrevious 1 2 Last
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Jump to forum :


(Delete all cookies set by this site)(Return to Homepage)

Any problems? Contact the administrator