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Soldier F
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userantony1969
Posted: 14 March 2019 3:19 PM
Subject: Soldier F
 


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Lets hope hes not going to be hung out to dry to please certain folk
userFast Pat
Posted: 14 March 2019 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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A reminder that the Bloody Sunday inquiry found

- the killings were unjustified
- none of the 14 dead (7 of whom were children) had guns
- no warnings were given
- no soldiers were under threat
- the troops were the first to open fire

One prosecution is a disgrace.
userantony1969
Posted: 14 March 2019 3:40 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 3:37 PM

A reminder that the Bloody Sunday inquiry found

- the killings were unjustified
- none of the 14 dead (7 of whom were children) had guns
- no warnings were given
- no soldiers were under threat
- the troops were the first to open fire

One prosecution is a disgrace.


Your right ... The IRA men should defo be prosecuted
userjumpstart
Posted: 14 March 2019 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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Unless you prosecute everyone on both sides it’s shameful. I’ve seen film of the event ,bloody frightening for the troops.
user747
Posted: 14 March 2019 6:35 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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There is no solution to entrenched religious bigotry.

Offload them NOW.
userFast Pat
Posted: 14 March 2019 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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747 - 2019-03-14 6:35 PM

There is no solution to entrenched religious bigotry.

Offload them NOW.


What reunite Ireland?
userjumpstart
Posted: 14 March 2019 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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Do we also investigate all civilian uk drone deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq, then what about Aden,Palestine,Kenya....and so on.
userBarryd999
Posted: 14 March 2019 9:18 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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Seems crazy that it was nearly half a century ago. If it was that cut and dry why has it taken nearly 50 years? It was a totally different time and nobody can really know what was going on or what it was like. Should be a time limit on these things IMO.
userFast Pat
Posted: 14 March 2019 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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Barryd999 - 2019-03-14 9:18 PM

Seems crazy that it was nearly half a century ago. If it was that cut and dry why has it taken nearly 50 years? It was a totally different time and nobody can really know what was going on or what it was like. Should be a time limit on these things IMO.


Well you had the whitewash of the Widgery report and then wait twenty years for the Saville inquiry to be set up that then took twelve years to report.....

Often happens with the establishment - look at Hillsborough, Orgreave etc

If you want to see a modern day parallel look at Grenfell.

Drag things out long enough
userpottypam
Posted: 14 March 2019 11:15 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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How many IRA and UDA murders have been convicted? Murderers of innocent people going about their normal everyday lives not soldiers being stoned and with guns being fired at them.

I hope that that soldier is not tried in NI because no way will he get a fair trial.
userFast Pat
Posted: 14 March 2019 11:28 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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pottypam - 2019-03-14 11:15 PM

How many IRA and UDA murders have been convicted? Murderers of innocent people going about their normal everyday lives not soldiers being stoned and with guns being fired at them.

I hope that that soldier is not tried in NI because no way will he get a fair trial.


Where do you want to start counting - 1791, 1912, 1922 or 1960?


Do you want to include those that were wrongly convicted like the Birmingham six and Guildford four?
userpottypam
Posted: 14 March 2019 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:28 PM

pottypam - 2019-03-14 11:15 PM

How many IRA and UDA murders have been convicted? Murderers of innocent people going about their normal everyday lives not soldiers being stoned and with guns being fired at them.

I hope that that soldier is not tried in NI because no way will he get a fair trial.


Where do you want to start counting - 1791, 1912, 1922 or 1960?


Do you want to include those that were wrongly convicted like the Birmingham six and Guildford four?



Change convicted to served their sentences. Most of those convicted in the most recent troubles were released after the Good Friday Agreement, including cowardly bombers who killed innocent women and children.

A line needs to be drawn under this and people need to move on.
userFast Pat
Posted: 15 March 2019 12:22 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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pottypam - 2019-03-14 11:50 PM

who killed innocent women and children.

A line needs to be drawn under this and people need to move on.


The issue is that those who killed innocent women and children in Derry and Ballymurphy etc have never been held to account / convicted.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/northern-ireland/2019/03/how-british-forces-colluded-sectarian-violence-northern-ireland



Edited by Fast Pat 2019-03-15 12:37 AM
userantony1969
Posted: 15 March 2019 6:45 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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If youve ever talked to those that served in NI or know some of our brave armed forces you'd fully appreciate what it was like in NI ... Maybe we could re-visit the sickening deaths of Corporal Howes and Corporal Wood who were dragged out their car and beaten to death by a mob of vile scum ... Only 2 were convicted for the murders of those 2 Corporals out of all those that took part that sickening day and then to add further insult they were both released in 1998 ... Outrage , none
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-03-15 12:22 AM

pottypam - 2019-03-14 11:50 PM

who killed innocent women and children.

A line needs to be drawn under this and people need to move on.


The issue is that those who killed innocent women and children in Derry and Ballymurphy etc have never been held to account / convicted.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/northern-ireland/2019/03/how-british-forces-colluded-sectarian-violence-northern-ireland



So what about those IRA terrorists that were given get out of Jail free letters by Labours Blair? .......

No doubt Corbyn will want to rescind them? .........

userjumpstart
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:11 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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Unfortunately he is going to be tried in NI and going to be named. What I wonder does this make our current troops think of their support in active war zones.
userBarryd999
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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antony1969 - 2019-03-15 6:45 AM

If youve ever talked to those that served in NI or know some of our brave armed forces you'd fully appreciate what it was like in NI ... Maybe we could re-visit the sickening deaths of Corporal Howes and Corporal Wood who were dragged out their car and beaten to death by a mob of vile scum ... Only 2 were convicted for the murders of those 2 Corporals out of all those that took part that sickening day and then to add further insult they were both released in 1998 ... Outrage , none


I had a lot of friends in the armed forces during the troubles in the 80s and early 90s some of which had their lives and careers destroyed. Some of the stories were horrific. For me its too far in the distant past and maybe there were injustices on both sides but it should have been buried long ago. Half a century is too long to drag all this up and accurately recall what went on along with how things were at the time. It was a flipping war zone.
userantony1969
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


The special one

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Barryd999 - 2019-03-15 8:19 AM

antony1969 - 2019-03-15 6:45 AM

If youve ever talked to those that served in NI or know some of our brave armed forces you'd fully appreciate what it was like in NI ... Maybe we could re-visit the sickening deaths of Corporal Howes and Corporal Wood who were dragged out their car and beaten to death by a mob of vile scum ... Only 2 were convicted for the murders of those 2 Corporals out of all those that took part that sickening day and then to add further insult they were both released in 1998 ... Outrage , none


I had a lot of friends in the armed forces during the troubles in the 80s and early 90s some of which had their lives and careers destroyed. Some of the stories were horrific. For me its too far in the distant past and maybe there were injustices on both sides but it should have been buried long ago. Half a century is too long to drag all this up and accurately recall what went on along with how things were at the time. It was a flipping war zone.


For once you talk sense
userViolet1956
Posted: 15 March 2019 1:06 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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I look at it this way. There was no immunity given to any soldier for any unlawful killings that they may have committed whilst in Northern Ireland. That is for good reason- they were meant to be a peacekeeping force we were not at war with either Unionist or Nationalist paramilitaries. The conduct expected of our armed forces is rightly way above that exhibited by murderous paramilitary groups. The dead and their families are not responsible for the Good Friday agreement, or the murders and other atrocities committed by the IRA, the UVF or the UDA for that matter. There’s a summary of the circumstances in which the 13 demonstrators were shot dead in this BBC report.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47472435

The passage of time since these incidents occurred will have been considered by the prosecuting authorities. If that rendered the evidence against Soldier F unreliable in the prosecution’s view then he would not have been charged. It remains to be seen whether he will be convicted. 16 other soldiers who were known to have fired shots. So, there will be no prosecutions of those men unless any further evidence against them, which seems most unlikely.

As for whether Soldier F will receive a fair trial, there is provision for him to be tried by a judge without a jury should there be concerns about whether sectarian bias would affect the verdict. All possible defences will be open to him including whether his response which resulted in the deaths of the people he shot was reasonable in all the circumstances. This won’t be a rehash of the conclusions of the Saville Inquiry. The standard of proof required for these charges is a higher one than applied to that inquiry. As none of us have seen the evidence upon which this prosecution is based our opinions about whether he should be charged and tried based on whether his actions were reasonable in all the circumstances do not count for much.

Veronica
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 March 2019 3:21 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 1:06 PM

I look at it this way. There was no immunity given to any soldier for any unlawful killings that they may have committed whilst in Northern Ireland. That is for good reason- they were meant to be a peacekeeping force we were not at war with either Unionist or Nationalist paramilitaries. The conduct expected of our armed forces is rightly way above that exhibited by murderous paramilitary groups. The dead and their families are not responsible for the Good Friday agreement, or the murders and other atrocities committed by the IRA, the UVF or the UDA for that matter. There’s a summary of the circumstances in which the 13 demonstrators were shot dead in this BBC report.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47472435

The passage of time since these incidents occurred will have been considered by the prosecuting authorities. If that rendered the evidence against Soldier F unreliable in the prosecution’s view then he would not have been charged. It remains to be seen whether he will be convicted. 16 other soldiers who were known to have fired shots. So, there will be no prosecutions of those men unless any further evidence against them, which seems most unlikely.

As for whether Soldier F will receive a fair trial, there is provision for him to be tried by a judge without a jury should there be concerns about whether sectarian bias would affect the verdict. All possible defences will be open to him including whether his response which resulted in the deaths of the people he shot was reasonable in all the circumstances. This won’t be a rehash of the conclusions of the Saville Inquiry. The standard of proof required for these charges is a higher one than applied to that inquiry. As none of us have seen the evidence upon which this prosecution is based our opinions about whether he should be charged and tried based on whether his actions were reasonable in all the circumstances do not count for much.

Veronica


Have to say I wouldn't join the armed forces again knowing I had folk like you on my side ......

userViolet1956
Posted: 15 March 2019 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law.
userjumpstart
Posted: 15 March 2019 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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I think your points are valid. But there needed to be some common sense. There was a peace agreement, but only one side was immune from further prosecution. Nuts. It’s not just a question of law it’s a political decision. If it was just about the law others would have been prosecuted.
userViolet1956
Posted: 15 March 2019 7:09 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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Hi jumpstart. I would just observe that we all have our view of what amounts to “common sense” which is why I always return to what the law dictates rather than what we as individuals feel is right.
userjumpstart
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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The law dictates that all be prosecuted.
userViolet1956
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 March 2019 7:47 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 5:34 PM

I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law.


No you just expect them to stand there and be shot at .........

It's very easy to be morally superiour from ones armchair ......

userViolet1956
Posted: 16 March 2019 8:58 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:47 AM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 5:34 PM

I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law.


No you just expect them to stand there and be shot at .........

It's very easy to be morally superiour from ones armchair ......

An armchair from which I have read about what happened on Bloody Sunday and summaries of the findings of the Saville Inquiry. They weren't being shot at on that occasion Dave.
userantony1969
Posted: 16 March 2019 9:08 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 8:56 PM

I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers.


Like Brexit many in NI are not happy with The Good Friday agreement and trouble still goes on mainly ignored by MSM ... A bit like other inconvenient stuff they ignore ... Like Dave says armchair critics in circumstances like this should stick to watching Eastenders
userFast Pat
Posted: 16 March 2019 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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antony1969 - 2019-03-16 9:08 AM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 8:56 PM

I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers.


Like Brexit many in NI are not happy with The Good Friday agreement and trouble still goes on mainly ignored by MSM ... A bit like other inconvenient stuff they ignore ... Like Dave says armchair critics in circumstances like this should stick to watching Eastenders


Lets look at the FACTS

ON this date 20 years ago almost one million people across the north went to the polls to register their support or rejection of the Good Friday Agreement – a turnout of more than 81 per cent.

In the Republic, 1.5 million people cast their vote in a corresponding referendum, though at just over 56 per cent, turnout was significantly lower.

It was the first time since 1918 that people throughout Ireland had voted concurrently on the same issue, even if south of the border the ballot paper included an additional question on amending articles 2 and 3 of the constitution, which spelled out a somewhat antiquated version of Irish nationhood, while also laying claim to the six northern counties.

The southern electorate overwhelmingly endorsed the Good Friday Agreement and changes to the constitution, with almost 95 per cent of voters opting for 'Yes'.

North of the border, it was a closer contest - 71.1 per cent said Yes compared to a No vote of 28.9 per cent - and it followed a much more divisive campaign.

Nationalism broadly supported the agreement, though the support of Sinn Féin – and the IRA – was qualified and republicans didn't actively campaign for a Yes vote.

Then SDLP deputy leader Seamus Mallon was characteristically scathing of what he saw as the republican movement's fence-sitting: "You can't have one toe in the water and one toe out."

Sinn Féin's erstwhile comrades in Republican Sinn Féin urged the electorate to reject the agreement, as did the 32-Sovereignty Committee.

"Voting Yes on May 22 will not save us from more Drumcrees or more Harryvilles," said RSF leader Ruairí Ó Brádaigh.

While the Ulster Unionist Party had played a key role in securing the agreement weeks earlier, its support came at a price.

There were defections – Arlene Foster and Jeffrey Donaldson among the most high profile – and internal dissent, best manifested by MPs Willie Ross and William Thompson.

Spearheading the No campaign were DUP leader Ian Paisley and his deputy Peter Robinson, alongside UK Unionist leader Bob McCartney and serial protester Cedric Wilson.

Mr McCartney had been dismissive of the agreement, describing it as an "effort to buy off the IRA, not produce peace". Former UUP leader Jim Molyneaux also opposed the peace accord.

During the campaign, a schism that had opened between the DUP and loyalism became more pronounced.

These two wings of unionism – Christian fundamentalism and working-class, largely secular paramilitaries – were ostensibly incompatible but had been strange bedfellows for much of the Troubles.

Their respective takes on the agreement, however, brought their differences to the surface and for a short while the DUP and the organisations under the Combined Loyalist Military Command banner were bitter adversaries, with the latter siding with nationalism and liberal unionism by vociferously backing the agreement.

Notorious UDA killer Michael Stone, recently released from prison, publicly supported the agreement at a rally in the Ulster Hall a week before polling day.

The Yes campaign also received an endorsement from relatives of victims of the Shankill bomb and the father of Paul Maxwell, the 15-year-old murdered by the IRA in Co Sligo as it targeted Lord Louis Mountbatten.

However, not all victims of the previous three decades of violence were convinced by the agreement and especially that element that saw prisoners released early.

Rosemary Craig, whose RUC officer husband had been badly wounded in an IRA attack, was among those campaigning for No.

It was the early prisoner releases that almost dealt the Yes campaign a fatal blow, as the release of Milltown Cemetery killer Stone and the IRA's Balcombe Street Gang appeared to turn public opinion against the agreement in the days before the poll.

Yes campaign director Quintin Oliver recalls that many organisations were reticent in voicing support for his campaign.

"There was quite a few organisations – including the churches and some business bodies – that wouldn't commit corporately because they said many of their members would dissent," he said.

In the end, the intervention of a range of international statesmen, including Bill Clinton and Nelson Mandela, alongside celebrity endorsements from the likes of Bono and Kenneth Branagh, helped buoy the pro-agreement campaign.

Ultimately 400,000 more people said Yes on Friday May 22 1998 to the famously cumbersome question: "Do you support the Agreement reached at the multi-party talks on Northern Ireland and set out in Command Paper 3883?"
userpottypam
Posted: 16 March 2019 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Soldier F
 
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I think this all that needs to be said




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