antony1969 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Lets hope hes not going to be hung out to dry to please certain folk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 A reminder that the Bloody Sunday inquiry found - the killings were unjustified - none of the 14 dead (7 of whom were children) had guns - no warnings were given - no soldiers were under threat - the troops were the first to open fire One prosecution is a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 14, 2019 Author Share Posted March 14, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 3:37 PM A reminder that the Bloody Sunday inquiry found - the killings were unjustified - none of the 14 dead (7 of whom were children) had guns - no warnings were given - no soldiers were under threat - the troops were the first to open fire One prosecution is a disgrace. Your right ... The IRA men should defo be prosecuted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Unless you prosecute everyone on both sides it’s shameful. I’ve seen film of the event ,bloody frightening for the troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 There is no solution to entrenched religious bigotry. Offload them NOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 747 - 2019-03-14 6:35 PM There is no solution to entrenched religious bigotry. Offload them NOW. What reunite Ireland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Do we also investigate all civilian uk drone deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq, then what about Aden,Palestine,Kenya....and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Seems crazy that it was nearly half a century ago. If it was that cut and dry why has it taken nearly 50 years? It was a totally different time and nobody can really know what was going on or what it was like. Should be a time limit on these things IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-03-14 9:18 PM Seems crazy that it was nearly half a century ago. If it was that cut and dry why has it taken nearly 50 years? It was a totally different time and nobody can really know what was going on or what it was like. Should be a time limit on these things IMO. Well you had the whitewash of the Widgery report and then wait twenty years for the Saville inquiry to be set up that then took twelve years to report..... Often happens with the establishment - look at Hillsborough, Orgreave etc If you want to see a modern day parallel look at Grenfell. Drag things out long enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pottypam Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 How many IRA and UDA murders have been convicted? Murderers of innocent people going about their normal everyday lives not soldiers being stoned and with guns being fired at them. I hope that that soldier is not tried in NI because no way will he get a fair trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 pottypam - 2019-03-14 11:15 PM How many IRA and UDA murders have been convicted? Murderers of innocent people going about their normal everyday lives not soldiers being stoned and with guns being fired at them. I hope that that soldier is not tried in NI because no way will he get a fair trial. Where do you want to start counting - 1791, 1912, 1922 or 1960? Do you want to include those that were wrongly convicted like the Birmingham six and Guildford four? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pottypam Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:28 PM pottypam - 2019-03-14 11:15 PM How many IRA and UDA murders have been convicted? Murderers of innocent people going about their normal everyday lives not soldiers being stoned and with guns being fired at them. I hope that that soldier is not tried in NI because no way will he get a fair trial. Where do you want to start counting - 1791, 1912, 1922 or 1960? Do you want to include those that were wrongly convicted like the Birmingham six and Guildford four? Change convicted to served their sentences. Most of those convicted in the most recent troubles were released after the Good Friday Agreement, including cowardly bombers who killed innocent women and children. A line needs to be drawn under this and people need to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 pottypam - 2019-03-14 11:50 PM who killed innocent women and children. A line needs to be drawn under this and people need to move on. The issue is that those who killed innocent women and children in Derry and Ballymurphy etc have never been held to account / convicted. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/northern-ireland/2019/03/how-british-forces-colluded-sectarian-violence-northern-ireland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 15, 2019 Author Share Posted March 15, 2019 If youve ever talked to those that served in NI or know some of our brave armed forces you'd fully appreciate what it was like in NI ... Maybe we could re-visit the sickening deaths of Corporal Howes and Corporal Wood who were dragged out their car and beaten to death by a mob of vile scum ... Only 2 were convicted for the murders of those 2 Corporals out of all those that took part that sickening day and then to add further insult they were both released in 1998 ... Outrage , none Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Fast Pat - 2019-03-15 12:22 AM pottypam - 2019-03-14 11:50 PM who killed innocent women and children. A line needs to be drawn under this and people need to move on. The issue is that those who killed innocent women and children in Derry and Ballymurphy etc have never been held to account / convicted. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/northern-ireland/2019/03/how-british-forces-colluded-sectarian-violence-northern-ireland So what about those IRA terrorists that were given get out of Jail free letters by Labours Blair? *-) ....... No doubt Corbyn will want to rescind them? :-| ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Unfortunately he is going to be tried in NI and going to be named. What I wonder does this make our current troops think of their support in active war zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-15 6:45 AM If youve ever talked to those that served in NI or know some of our brave armed forces you'd fully appreciate what it was like in NI ... Maybe we could re-visit the sickening deaths of Corporal Howes and Corporal Wood who were dragged out their car and beaten to death by a mob of vile scum ... Only 2 were convicted for the murders of those 2 Corporals out of all those that took part that sickening day and then to add further insult they were both released in 1998 ... Outrage , none I had a lot of friends in the armed forces during the troubles in the 80s and early 90s some of which had their lives and careers destroyed. Some of the stories were horrific. For me its too far in the distant past and maybe there were injustices on both sides but it should have been buried long ago. Half a century is too long to drag all this up and accurately recall what went on along with how things were at the time. It was a flipping war zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 15, 2019 Author Share Posted March 15, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-03-15 8:19 AM antony1969 - 2019-03-15 6:45 AM If youve ever talked to those that served in NI or know some of our brave armed forces you'd fully appreciate what it was like in NI ... Maybe we could re-visit the sickening deaths of Corporal Howes and Corporal Wood who were dragged out their car and beaten to death by a mob of vile scum ... Only 2 were convicted for the murders of those 2 Corporals out of all those that took part that sickening day and then to add further insult they were both released in 1998 ... Outrage , none I had a lot of friends in the armed forces during the troubles in the 80s and early 90s some of which had their lives and careers destroyed. Some of the stories were horrific. For me its too far in the distant past and maybe there were injustices on both sides but it should have been buried long ago. Half a century is too long to drag all this up and accurately recall what went on along with how things were at the time. It was a flipping war zone. For once you talk sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I look at it this way. There was no immunity given to any soldier for any unlawful killings that they may have committed whilst in Northern Ireland. That is for good reason- they were meant to be a peacekeeping force we were not at war with either Unionist or Nationalist paramilitaries. The conduct expected of our armed forces is rightly way above that exhibited by murderous paramilitary groups. The dead and their families are not responsible for the Good Friday agreement, or the murders and other atrocities committed by the IRA, the UVF or the UDA for that matter. There’s a summary of the circumstances in which the 13 demonstrators were shot dead in this BBC report. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47472435 The passage of time since these incidents occurred will have been considered by the prosecuting authorities. If that rendered the evidence against Soldier F unreliable in the prosecution’s view then he would not have been charged. It remains to be seen whether he will be convicted. 16 other soldiers who were known to have fired shots. So, there will be no prosecutions of those men unless any further evidence against them, which seems most unlikely. As for whether Soldier F will receive a fair trial, there is provision for him to be tried by a judge without a jury should there be concerns about whether sectarian bias would affect the verdict. All possible defences will be open to him including whether his response which resulted in the deaths of the people he shot was reasonable in all the circumstances. This won’t be a rehash of the conclusions of the Saville Inquiry. The standard of proof required for these charges is a higher one than applied to that inquiry. As none of us have seen the evidence upon which this prosecution is based our opinions about whether he should be charged and tried based on whether his actions were reasonable in all the circumstances do not count for much. Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-15 1:06 PM I look at it this way. There was no immunity given to any soldier for any unlawful killings that they may have committed whilst in Northern Ireland. That is for good reason- they were meant to be a peacekeeping force we were not at war with either Unionist or Nationalist paramilitaries. The conduct expected of our armed forces is rightly way above that exhibited by murderous paramilitary groups. The dead and their families are not responsible for the Good Friday agreement, or the murders and other atrocities committed by the IRA, the UVF or the UDA for that matter. There’s a summary of the circumstances in which the 13 demonstrators were shot dead in this BBC report. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47472435 The passage of time since these incidents occurred will have been considered by the prosecuting authorities. If that rendered the evidence against Soldier F unreliable in the prosecution’s view then he would not have been charged. It remains to be seen whether he will be convicted. 16 other soldiers who were known to have fired shots. So, there will be no prosecutions of those men unless any further evidence against them, which seems most unlikely. As for whether Soldier F will receive a fair trial, there is provision for him to be tried by a judge without a jury should there be concerns about whether sectarian bias would affect the verdict. All possible defences will be open to him including whether his response which resulted in the deaths of the people he shot was reasonable in all the circumstances. This won’t be a rehash of the conclusions of the Saville Inquiry. The standard of proof required for these charges is a higher one than applied to that inquiry. As none of us have seen the evidence upon which this prosecution is based our opinions about whether he should be charged and tried based on whether his actions were reasonable in all the circumstances do not count for much. Veronica Have to say I wouldn't join the armed forces again knowing I had folk like you on my side :-| ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I wish you would deal with the points I made Dave. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for our armed forces. I just don't believe that individuals who serve in them are above the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I think your points are valid. But there needed to be some common sense. There was a peace agreement, but only one side was immune from further prosecution. Nuts. It’s not just a question of law it’s a political decision. If it was just about the law others would have been prosecuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Hi jumpstart. I would just observe that we all have our view of what amounts to “common sense” which is why I always return to what the law dictates rather than what we as individuals feel is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 The law dictates that all be prosecuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I think you are confusing your personal idea of what is moral and what your democratcially elected government negotiated in order to end the otherwise intractable problems in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement has succeeded in saving the lives of many more civilians and soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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