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Still Eu citizens?


jumpstart

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Its been going on for years but its now been given a hearing I believe. Guy Verhofstadt is in favour of it as the article says. It should only be available to remainers though really IMO.

 

I suspect even if it had legs Johnson would somehow find a way to scupper it out of spite.

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As much as I would welcome it I cant see how it would work. Basically we would have all the freedom of movement rights and protections that we had before when this would not be reciprocated. I cant see the EU going for that unless the case is proven that you cannot strip away a citizens rights even if that citizens country decides to remove itself from the Union. On the other hand the EU may see it as an opportunity anyway as Brits working over in mainland Europe or even retiring there contribute to the economy positively. They may even see it as a brain drain opportunity if mainland Europe becomes more desirable than the UK post Brexit. All depends on how we all come out of the other side of Covid I guess (if there is an other side)
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I’ve looked at some of the arguments and whilst I claim to have no specialist knowledge or expertise in this area of law, I believe the Treaties, including Maastricht and Lisbon, are silent on what happens to the citizenship of the nationals of a member state that withdraws from the EU. What Judges are inclined to do when no specific provision deals with the issue at hand is to choose the result that is the least absurd and then justify it by cherry picking precedents that support the outcome.
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Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 10:52 AM

 

As much as I would welcome it I cant see how it would work. ……………..

Option to choose passport type? Either EU format (pink) or UK type (blue). With the EU format goes existing EU citizenship rights (plus future rights as subsequently varied). Who would, actually lose, and what would they lose? Ditto vehicle registration. Vehicles on "Euro plates" don't require separate nationality identifiers, those on UK only plates do. It wouldn't make much difference at borders as all categories are currently catered for.

 

I assume the significant impacts of leaving the EU will be felt on cross border customs duties, on financial transactions, and on standards harmonisation arrangements.

 

If those who voted to leave choose to be hypocrites, and keep their citizenship rights, so what? Who would lose? Equally, what would be gained by refusing to maintain the present "freedom of movement" provisions to EU citizens?

 

Freedom of movement has long been spun for political convenience. In any case it is not unfettered freedom of movement, it is, and has always been, conditional freedom of movement. The frictions have arisen where UK governments have waived their perfectly reasonable rights to restrict movement (largely for economic reasons), and then blamed "freedom of movement" as the reason for so doing.

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jumpstart - 2020-05-01 10:40 AM

 

I think it’s significant that we would be Eu citizens if this remained in law.

 

European citizenship?

Then what more do you want?

 

You accepted that a majority of 50%+1 was enough to leave.

You even fed yourself up and confirmed the decision by an almost Bulgarian vote.

More importantly, have you noticed that you have fed the citizens of twenty-six nations up ?

 

It's time for you to pay the divorce bill and get out of the way.

 

Max

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mtravel - 2020-05-01 12:21 PM

 

jumpstart - 2020-05-01 10:40 AM

 

I think it’s significant that we would be Eu citizens if this remained in law.

 

European citizenship?

Then what more do you want?

 

You accepted that a majority of 50%+1 was enough to leave.

You even fed yourself up and confirmed the decision by an almost Bulgarian vote.

More importantly, have you noticed that you have fed the citizens of twenty-six nations up ?

 

It's time for you to pay the divorce bill and get out of the way.

 

Max

Unhelpful Max! Many (in fact almost half) of us did not vote to leave in 2016, and wish to maintain solidarity with those who, like you, have been our fellow citizens.

 

You cannot fight xenophobia with equal and opposite xenophobia! :-D

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mtravel - 2020-05-01 12:21 PM

 

jumpstart - 2020-05-01 10:40 AM

 

I think it’s significant that we would be Eu citizens if this remained in law.

 

European citizenship?

Then what more do you want?

 

You accepted that a majority of 50%+1 was enough to leave.

You even fed yourself up and confirmed the decision by an almost Bulgarian vote.

More importantly, have you noticed that you have fed the citizens of twenty-six nations up ?

 

It's time for you to pay the divorce bill and get out of the way.

 

Max

 

Max,first of all read the article,I know you don’t like reading British newspapers, then you’ll understand.

Bulgarian vote? Not sure what that is.

If it’s goodbye Proseco, goodbye Parmesan, goodbye Chianti then it’s maybe hello Bulgarian wine.

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Violet1956 - 2020-05-01 11:07 AM

 

I’ve looked at some of the arguments and whilst I claim to have no specialist knowledge or expertise in this area of law, I believe the Treaties, including Maastricht and Lisbon, are silent on what happens to the citizenship of the nationals of a member state that withdraws from the EU. What Judges are inclined to do when no specific provision deals with the issue at hand is to choose the result that is the least absurd and then justify it by cherry picking precedents that support the outcome.

 

 

It would be good to hear what you would consider the outcome and it’s consequences to be.

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Brian, mine is not xenophobia.

 

Imagine, I love your country where I have been many many times, both as a tourist and for business reasons.

For example, last year I wanted to visit places out of the most common tourist itineraries.

Many small towns and villages: Cotswolds, Chilterns, Northumbria, Yorkshire, etc. to improve my knowledge of the English people and your way of life.

 

I know that only 52% of you voted to leave the EU and I also know its territorial distribution. But you have to digest it, not us.

 

You will acknowledge that, as I said, perhaps you yourself bored by the wearing negotiations or fed up with controversy and partisan news, in large part have voted for those who have decided to leave.

 

In this forum I notice a hatred for all that is the European Community.

Many of you emphasize what is not working or is still below expectations but do not consider the positive things that are many.

To leave means to leave, not to wish for some benefit but not to accept the rest. Sorry.

 

Max

 

P.S. Bulgarian result of a vote is a journalistic saying used to indicate elections in which the result is too broadly favorable to one of the contenders.

In a western democracy, typically such is considered when one of the parties exceeds 70/75% of votes.

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Brian Kirby - 2020-05-01 11:26 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 10:52 AM

 

As much as I would welcome it I cant see how it would work. ……………..

Option to choose passport type? Either EU format (pink) or UK type (blue). With the EU format goes existing EU citizenship rights (plus future rights as subsequently varied). Who would, actually lose, and what would they lose? Ditto vehicle registration. Vehicles on "Euro plates" don't require separate nationality identifiers, those on UK only plates do. It wouldn't make much difference at borders as all categories are currently catered for.

 

I assume the significant impacts of leaving the EU will be felt on cross border customs duties, on financial transactions, and on standards harmonisation arrangements.

 

If those who voted to leave choose to be hypocrites, and keep their citizenship rights, so what? Who would lose? Equally, what would be gained by refusing to maintain the present "freedom of movement" provisions to EU citizens?

 

Freedom of movement has long been spun for political convenience. In any case it is not unfettered freedom of movement, it is, and has always been, conditional freedom of movement. The frictions have arisen where UK governments have waived their perfectly reasonable rights to restrict movement (largely for economic reasons), and then blamed "freedom of movement" as the reason for so doing.

 

First bit in bold, good point. It would be no great shakes really but I imagine there would be objection to it by many here if for no other reason than pure spite. The second bit in bold though, flipping heck. Accepting two way freedom of movement to many Brexiteers would be enough to finish some of them off and send them into a fit of rage. However perhaps some may have started to see how important it was with our lack of EU NHS Staff and fruit pickers.

 

Maybe there is scope for the whole thing to be revised but of course those they put in charge are having none of it and there is very little that can be done. There are however rumblings of discord in the Tory party regarding a transition extension but with an 80 seat majority and legislation needed in order to stop us leaving at the end of this year and apply for an extension by June? They only have until June. Without that I suspect it will all break down and any thoughts of retaining citizenship will go down the toilet when we finally slip over the edge of the cliff we have been facing for four years.

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Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 1:47 PM

 

Maybe there is scope for the whole thing to be revised but of course those they put in charge are having none of it and there is very little that can be done. There are however rumblings of discord in the Tory party regarding a transition extension but with an 80 seat majority and legislation needed in order to stop us leaving at the end of this year and apply for an extension by June? They only have until June. Without that I suspect it will all break down and any thoughts of retaining citizenship will go down the toilet when we finally slip over the edge of the cliff we have been facing for four years.

 

You have two hopes Barry.........Bob hope......and No Hope :D ..........

 

What day in June is "Losers No Hope Day"? ;-) .........

 

I'd hate to miss the celibrations (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

 

 

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mtravel - 2020-05-01 1:27 PM

 

Brian, mine is not xenophobia.

Then my apologies, but the tone of your comment gave me that impression.

 

............I know that only 52% of you voted to leave the EU and I also know its territorial distribution. But you have to digest it, not us.

Indeed we do, but I would hope we can do that while remaining friendly with other "Europeans".

 

You will acknowledge that, as I said, perhaps you yourself bored by the wearing negotiations or fed up with controversy and partisan news, in large part have voted for those who have decided to leave.

If you mean that I may have voted to leave, so should welcome leaving, I can understand the sentiment. But I did not vote to leave, I voted to remain, and regard leaving an act of foolish, misguided, self-harm for the UK.

 

In this forum I notice a hatred for all that is the European Community.

Many of you emphasize what is not working or is still below expectations but do not consider the positive things that are many.

To leave means to leave, not to wish for some benefit but not to accept the rest. Sorry.

 

Max……………………………..

What you note is regrettably true, except that the "hatred" resides in only a few posters. You see so many of their posts because they believe they have gained the greatest victory of their lives in winning the referendum, and are fearful that those of us who voted to remain will somehow cheat them of that "victory" - so they keep up a barrage of largely ill-informed and irrelevant invective. But you have a number of Eurosceptic parties in Italy, so all I can say is be very careful who you vote for! :-D

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pelmetman - 2020-05-01 2:40 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 1:47 PM

 

Maybe there is scope for the whole thing to be revised but of course those they put in charge are having none of it and there is very little that can be done. There are however rumblings of discord in the Tory party regarding a transition extension but with an 80 seat majority and legislation needed in order to stop us leaving at the end of this year and apply for an extension by June? They only have until June. Without that I suspect it will all break down and any thoughts of retaining citizenship will go down the toilet when we finally slip over the edge of the cliff we have been facing for four years.

 

You have two hopes Barry.........Bob hope......and No Hope :D ..........

 

What day in June is "Losers No Hope Day"? ;-) .........

 

I'd hate to miss the celibrations (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

 

 

The Irony is that if amazingly we were offered something like Brian suggested where some of us can retain our EU citizenship and EU passports with free movement I can guarantee you would go for it. You have shown your hypocrisy throughout by spending half your life living in your shed on the Costa del Ingleeesh rather than supporting the British Economy and all things British you tell us you are so fond of.

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Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 1:47 PM...……………………….Maybe there is scope for the whole thing to be revised but of course those they put in charge are having none of it and there is very little that can be done. There are however rumblings of discord in the Tory party regarding a transition extension but with an 80 seat majority and legislation needed in order to stop us leaving at the end of this year and apply for an extension by June? They only have until June. Without that I suspect it will all break down and any thoughts of retaining citizenship will go down the toilet when we finally slip over the edge of the cliff we have been facing for four years.

The only thing I'd add, is that irrespective of any Tory sentiments, they have no say in whether or not the EU grants those UK citizens who wish to retain their EU citizenship that right, because that decision is for the 27 present members to make. The Tories, having wandered blindfold into this mess, have no say over what rights the present EU members decide to grant the members of any "third country". So, at least one can still dream! :-D

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Oh I think the current ToryKippers would find a way to scupper any of us getting an offer of EU citizenship from the EU Brian, or at least they would try. Their attitude showed through recently when they decided not to join the EU procurement scheme for PPE because it would be seen as not very Brexity.

 

Less of the old Rich!! 8-)

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Brian, you're completely right, in Italy we have Eurosceptic parties.

 

But you need to know all the story and pathetic characters who for electoral purposes only embody this way of thinking.

 

In the nineties Italy was tired of old parties and welcomed (not me) the advent of Berlusconi as a fresh air also for his personal success as a businessman.

Note, Indro Montanelli, historical Italian journalist and director of a newspaper owned by Berlusconi was against his entry into politics and was forced to resign.

Well, Berlusconi brought ex-fascists into the government (Fini, La Russa, Gasparri, etc) and the Lega, a separatist party from the North with no government experience.

 

With the Berlusconi's original one down to 4 or 5%, two of those three parties, have become nationalist but only for squalid election purposes.

They do not know the rules of finance and economy, the euro annoys them because they cannot print money and increase the debt.

Their Euroscepticism is fake, they know very well that without Europe Italy would be worse than Greece.

But it is convenient for them to ignore it, even in these moments of sanitary emergency they scream against Europe even if important aid has already been decided by the Community or is about to do so.

And the more the government in office obtains consensus for the good work that has proven to do, the more they shout.

 

You may not know that in 2019 the Lega was in the government, its leader Salvini was minister of interior.

It was the time of heavy immigration from Africa, thinking that with new elections he would have a majority he led his party out of the government causing it to fall.

Without thinking that another coalition would have been possible, not even the sum of the percentages he is able to do.

Now he is on the corner with the little fascist Giorgia Meloni and for this he screams and shouts.

 

Don't worry, people like those will never get my vote.

Long live our friendship and common culture as Europeans.

 

Max

 

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Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 10:13 AM

 

Its been going on for years but its now been given a hearing I believe. Guy Verhofstadt is in favour of it as the article says. It should only be available to remainers though really IMO.

 

I suspect even if it had legs Johnson would somehow find a way to scupper it out of spite.

Totally that (bib) along with FoM. Brexiters preached about patriotism and independence etc so should now confine themselves to travel within the country they pretend to "love" instead of running off to spend half the year sitting inside an EU country. The hypocrisy of Little Englanders has been staggering.

 

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-05-01 11:26 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 10:52 AM

 

As much as I would welcome it I cant see how it would work. ……………..

Option to choose passport type? Either EU format (pink) or UK type (blue).

Neither for Brexiters! They wanted FoM to end and that cuts both ways so they must stay on their beloved tiny island from here on.

 

If those who voted to leave choose to be hypocrites......

They must be taught they cannot pretend to be 'patriots' and the only way to do that is ensure they never set foot out of UK again. Skegness will welcome them. :-D

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Guest pelmetman
Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 3:35 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-05-01 2:40 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 1:47 PM

 

Maybe there is scope for the whole thing to be revised but of course those they put in charge are having none of it and there is very little that can be done. There are however rumblings of discord in the Tory party regarding a transition extension but with an 80 seat majority and legislation needed in order to stop us leaving at the end of this year and apply for an extension by June? They only have until June. Without that I suspect it will all break down and any thoughts of retaining citizenship will go down the toilet when we finally slip over the edge of the cliff we have been facing for four years.

 

You have two hopes Barry.........Bob hope......and No Hope :D ..........

 

What day in June is "Losers No Hope Day"? ;-) .........

 

I'd hate to miss the celibrations (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

 

 

The Irony is that if amazingly we were offered something like Brian suggested where some of us can retain our EU citizenship and EU passports with free movement I can guarantee you would go for it. You have shown your hypocrisy throughout by spending half your life living in your shed on the Costa del Ingleeesh rather than supporting the British Economy and all things British you tell us you are so fond of.

 

Post pandemic I doubt the Spanish Rozzers will be hunting down us British tourists ;-) .........

 

Indeed they're already trying to think how to tempt us back :D ........

 

Although as things stand, we'll prolly give this winter a miss unless there is a vaccine :-| ......

 

Winter in the UK is scary prospect though 8-) .........

 

 

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pelmetman - 2020-05-01 5:50 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 3:35 PM

 

pelmetman - 2020-05-01 2:40 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-05-01 1:47 PM

 

Maybe there is scope for the whole thing to be revised but of course those they put in charge are having none of it and there is very little that can be done. There are however rumblings of discord in the Tory party regarding a transition extension but with an 80 seat majority and legislation needed in order to stop us leaving at the end of this year and apply for an extension by June? They only have until June. Without that I suspect it will all break down and any thoughts of retaining citizenship will go down the toilet when we finally slip over the edge of the cliff we have been facing for four years.

 

You have two hopes Barry.........Bob hope......and No Hope :D ..........

 

What day in June is "Losers No Hope Day"? ;-) .........

 

I'd hate to miss the celibrations (lol) (lol) (lol) ........

 

 

The Irony is that if amazingly we were offered something like Brian suggested where some of us can retain our EU citizenship and EU passports with free movement I can guarantee you would go for it. You have shown your hypocrisy throughout by spending half your life living in your shed on the Costa del Ingleeesh rather than supporting the British Economy and all things British you tell us you are so fond of.

 

Although as things stand, we'll prolly give this winter a miss unless there is a vaccine :-| ......

Don't be such a snowflake. Madrid and Catalonia are the recommended areas for you hypocrites. Take plenty of disinfectant and hypodermic syringes with you.

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jumpstart - 2020-05-01 1:01 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2020-05-01 11:07 AM

 

I’ve looked at some of the arguments and whilst I claim to have no specialist knowledge or expertise in this area of law, I believe the Treaties, including Maastricht and Lisbon, are silent on what happens to the citizenship of the nationals of a member state that withdraws from the EU. What Judges are inclined to do when no specific provision deals with the issue at hand is to choose the result that is the least absurd and then justify it by cherry picking precedents that support the outcome.

 

 

It would be good to hear what you would consider the outcome and it’s consequences to be.

 

It’s a difficult one Jumpstart. When I first saw the question that began this thread I had visions of academic responses that the brainiest of lawyers would take days if not weeks within which to write their opinion. I am not the brainiest of lawyers so I choose a simplistic answer. It would produce an absurd result if the UK’s withdrawal from the EU did not end our rights of free movement because that is what our government intends to impose upon other European citizens.

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