nightrider Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 What kind of a country are we turning into? do the powers that be think that we the general public are stupid numbskulls? MP's expenses claims censored, where is the so called transparency? The Health and Safety Executive running amok in our schools banning kids from traditional playground games, no snowballing, conker fights, running about, climbing tree's, no more arts and crafts using egg boxes or toilet roll tubes for fear of contracting a deadly disease, no chance of using blu tack or painting unless goggles are worn, itinerant travellers given priority in hospitals and doctors surgeries, what a carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Ah, but did you see the interview with the HSE this morning. It is not the HSE that is causing the problem, it is the individual schools. Each school is allowed to set its own rules within reason and with very easy litigation these days they are frightened to death. It is about time that someone took them on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I found the best way to reduce stress about what is 'allegedly' going on, is to stop reading the newspapers. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I saw that interview with the head of the H&SE and from my own experience - I simply do not believe her. The H&SE people I have had the misfortune to come up against every so often where without exception bumptious little jobsworths who wanted to see bizarre danger in any action. It is OK for an individual to say this is stupid (and it is) - but these people are insidious and influence the likes of the insurance industry so that they get their way by shutting down events due to the insurance premiums being so high. The example I personally was involved with was the organisation of a Carnival. First we had to do various risk assessments which whilst we did it because children were involved as well as vehicles some of the nonsense required was laughable. What killed the carnival in the end was the Insurance premiums due to the inflated dangers cited by the H&SE and the fact that those unpaid volunteer organisers were told in no uncertain terms that we would be personally liable for any accident that took place on the day. So the Carnival stopped at that point and an enjoyable event cancelled for all. That was several years ago and I hope the jobsworths at the H&SE are proud of themselves. The H&SE has been rightly condemned of late by many and this has been covered in the media. The interview this morning bore no resemblance whatsoever to the reality of the H&SE experienced by myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Why point any blame at the H&SE? Like any organisation which is bound to implement legislation it has to do what the legislation says - i.e. what parliament (our MPs) has decided the legislation should say. Even where there are areas which are open to interpretation (in which case some people will interpret harder than others) that is because parliament (our MPs) have not done their job properly to make sure that legislation isn't ambiguous. The H&SE, as with local authorities and all other bodies which are "creatures of statute", would (quite rightly) soon be criticised by people if they decided it was up to them as to whether they should do as directed by parliament. Same with the expenses cover up. The majority of the redaction has occurred because of the amendments to FoIA which MPs pushed through in order to protect their own self interest. Those are redactions which could not have been made if the enquiry were into the expenses of any of us who are not MPs. So please let us blame the correct people, MPs, when this type of thing occurs and not the poor beggars at the sharp end who have to deal with implementation of their idiocy. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 Graham, Not every layman has a legalistic brain, all they read in the papers or see regarding edicts put out and about by the H&SE mean that as you say they are at the sharp end and its they that get it in the neck first. Do the H&SE have to follow blindly what they are told, are they Zombies? Can't they or are they not allowed to point out some of the stupid rules they are ordered to enforce? How long will it be before school headmasters demand that their pupils are sedated so that they dont run around like kids are supposed to do so that the school wont be sued in the event that they injure themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Subject's like this are not as straightforward as we may wish to think. However, there are a couple of points worth considering on both sides of the argument. Have we become a society that see's an opportunity to make a quick buck ? If little Tommy has an accident at school how quick do the parents run to the law courts and say 'they' had a statutory responsibility to look after my child and whilst in their care little Tommy got injured, give me some compensation. Now look at it from another perspective, the 6 year old Beaver scout that whilst on a summer evening's walk by the canal/riverside fell in and drowned. Legislation stipulates that there should be how many carers in charge of a group of children ? Now I have not seen the full details of this case so do not know if there was any wrong doing here, but if their was is this just a tragic acident or negligence (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 knight of the road - 2009-06-19 3:32 PM Graham, Not every layman has a legalistic brain, all they read in the papers or see regarding edicts put out and about by the H&SE mean that as you say they are at the sharp end and its they that get it in the neck first. I reckon we'll both be long dead before the press lets the truth get in the way of a story they fancy printing :-) When you consider the reading age that some so called newspapers are aimed at it is no surprise that many readers are incapable of discerning the truth. knight of the road - 2009-06-19 3:32 PM Do the H&SE have to follow blindly what they are told, are they Zombies? Can't they or are they not allowed to point out some of the stupid rules they are ordered to enforce? No, they are not zombies. However, if the law says "thou shalt do X" they may point out that it is stupid but they also have to point out that that is what the law requires. I came across stupid anomalies when working as a Data Protection Officer and supplying copies of social services records to individuals. The records themselves were often based on families so included the names of other family members. To comply with the law those names should be redacted, even though the person who was receiving the records would still know who was being referred to (e.g. their parents or siblings). Wherever possible I would try to obtain the permission of the third parties not to redact but if they stuck to their rights then the black pen or snopake had to come out even though it was stupid. knight of the road - 2009-06-19 3:32 PM How long will it be before school headmasters demand that their pupils are sedated so that they dont run around like kids are supposed to do so that the school wont be sued in the event that they injure themselves? In this context, the main problem with school heads and their equivalents in other relatively small establishments is that they don't obtain proper training in the law's requirements. During my DP days we had the stupid cases of schools banning parents & grandparents from taking photographs or video of school plays and the like because it would "break the Data Protection Act". Total rubbish - the heads concerned simply didn't understand the law they were applying. In many cases that was because they never bothered to take up the free training on offer or to make a quick phone call for advice. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Randonneur - 2009-06-19 10:37 AM Ah, but did you see the interview with the HSE this morning. It is not the HSE that is causing the problem, it is the individual schools. Each school is allowed to set its own rules within reason and with very easy litigation these days they are frightened to death. It is about time that someone took them on. Take who on? schools are rightly frightened of litigious parents? Its getting like America where a claim can arise from the most innocuous incident or accident..... Anyone remember last year where a family was sued successfully in a civil case. where a youngster was injured by an older child kicking the younger one in the head on a bouncy castle? at a kids party? Consequently its harder to find teachers willing to supervise school trips etc.... *-) , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Interesting points. However it is my understanding that these silly cases cited above only have a chance of winning BECAUSE of the actions and rule interpretation by the likes of the H&SE. If common sense were allowed instead of the interpretation of wording by professional jobs for the boys rule makers, then none of these cases would ever have seen a courtroom. We give the unscrupulous the chance to sue by allowing the stupidity of the likes of the rule interpretation by the H&SE. So rather than take the chance of being sued, we as the carnival committee were forced to say enough is enough. We could not afford the insurance premiums to cover us and not one of us was prepared to put our livelihoods and house on the line because the H&SE had rules that said a simple accident on Carnival day could render us personally liable. Graham – I hear what you are saying and I am sure the road to stupidity is paved with good intentions – but stupid is stupid. Best description I heard of one particular H&SE we had the misfortune to deal with was that he was a true “spherical idiot”. He was a spherical one because whichever way you looked as what he was saying – it was always idiotic. Because of his actions an annual event enjoyed by thousands that raised hundreds of £’s for local charities was cancelled. I shall never forget the smile on his face when at a meeting that decision was made. He enjoyed the power and sadly from what I still read today – the H&SE and those that interpret their rules still seem to enjoy the power of saying – “No!” to peoples enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 The litigation/quick buck points are extremely valid - and all part of the want it all, want it now and sod anyone else culture that led to sub-prime loans etc. and their consequences. Some people on here will have seen my comments on the inadequacy of the contents (especially lack of derogation) of the Human Rights Act. As well as that being put right we also seem to need a Responsibility Act so that people take responsibility for their own actions and accept that (for example) if little Johnny falls over in the playground it's his own stupid fault most of the time. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 CliveH - 2009-06-19 5:56 PM Interesting points. However it is my understanding that these silly cases cited above only have a chance of winning BECAUSE of the actions and rule interpretation by the likes of the H&SE. If common sense were allowed instead of the interpretation of wording by professional jobs for the boys rule makers, then none of these cases would ever have seen a courtroom. We give the unscrupulous the chance to sue by allowing the stupidity of the likes of the rule interpretation by the H&SE. So rather than take the chance of being sued, we as the carnival committee were forced to say enough is enough. We could not afford the insurance premiums to cover us and not one of us was prepared to put our livelihoods and house on the line because the H&SE had rules that said a simple accident on Carnival day could render us personally liable. Graham – I hear what you are saying and I am sure the road to stupidity is paved with good intentions – but stupid is stupid. Best description I heard of one particular H&SE we had the misfortune to deal with was that he was a true “spherical idiot”. He was a spherical one because whichever way you looked as what he was saying – it was always idiotic. Because of his actions an annual event enjoyed by thousands that raised hundreds of £’s for local charities was cancelled. I shall never forget the smile on his face when at a meeting that decision was made. He enjoyed the power and sadly from what I still read today – the H&SE and those that interpret their rules still seem to enjoy the power of saying – “No!” to peoples enjoyment. It may well be that whatever that particular person said on that particular occasion is idiotic. One of the problems with some legislation is that the outcome can be nothing but idiotic because of the way it is drafted. Did the person who called him a spherical idiot actually take the trouble to study the legislation to challenge the interpretation? Or did he just spit his dummy out because he wasn't getting his own way? The "rule makers" are MPs. H&SE staff etc only interpret the rules they have made. Please have a go at those who make the rules because that is the only way you will get them changed. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 malc d - 2009-06-19 11:15 AM I found the best way to reduce stress about what is 'allegedly' going on, is to stop reading the newspapers. ;-) Malc, I could not do without my morning copy of the Daily Mail, I would miss the daily dose of my hero, Garfield the cat. An incorrigable rogue like myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 what we need here is examples... The one I gave above where young children were on the bouncy castle and an older more boisterous child inadvertently kicked a young one in the head causing permanent brain damage..... are you going to blame the HSE for this? the supplier of the bouncy castle? the hirer for not supervising event properly? or the parent for risking its own childs safety? the court agreed that the holder of the party were responsible and awarded considerable damages against them. this was a civil matter and nothing to do with the HSE. The HSE covers Construction and schools - work place H&S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 For the last ten years or so we used to hold a garden party in our garden to raise funds for the local hospice. Reluctantly we have decided not to hold it anymore, just in case one of the elderly guests were to trip and hurt herself leaving us wide open to being sued for damages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 knight of the road - 2009-06-19 6:57 PM malc d - 2009-06-19 11:15 AM I found the best way to reduce stress about what is 'allegedly' going on, is to stop reading the newspapers. ;-) Malc, I could not do without my morning copy of the Daily Mail, I would miss the daily dose of my hero, Garfield the cat. An incorrigable rogue like myself. In that case Malc can I suggest that you only take Garfield seriously, and treat the rest of the paper as gossip and hearsay. Being an incorrigible rogue, have you ever thought of standing as an MP ? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 As an aside to this thread, comparing modern day kids and kids from my era, I would say that kids from my era enjoyed themselves more. To be a modern day kid seems to be full of angst and more stressful, I would describe myself as being a bit of a Huckleberry Finn, but I enjoyed every minute of my childhood, it all fell apart when I got married the first time around!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 knight of the road - 2009-06-19 7:15 PM it all fell apart when I got married the first time around!!!! That's a great shame Malcolm as getting married was the best thing that ever happened to me - both times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 JudgeMental - 2009-06-19 6:57 PM what we need here is examples... The one I gave above where young children were on the bouncy castle and an older more boisterous child inadvertently kicked a young one in the head causing permanent brain damage..... are you going to blame the HSE for this? the supplier of the bouncy castle? the hirer for not supervising event properly? or the parent for risking its own childs safety? the court agreed that the holder of the party were responsible and awarded considerable damages against them. this was a civil matter and nothing to do with the HSE. The HSE covers Construction and schools - work place H&S knight of the road - 2009-06-19 7:09 PM For the last ten years or so we used to hold a garden party in our garden to raise funds for the local hospice. Reluctantly we have decided not to hold it anymore, just in case one of the elderly guests were to trip and hurt herself leaving us wide open to being sued for damages. Both very good examples of where legislation needs to be changed to make it the responsibility of people attending an event (or those legally responsible for them in the case of children) to understand that there are risks associated with the event and that they will be responsible for assessing and managing their own risk. We take part in English Civil War re-enactment events. The participant's checklist starts out "You have had the dangers explained and the need for personal insurance". At each event the battlefield is roped off with double rope lines separated by several feet. There are signs every few feet warning the general public of the dangers posed by cannon and musket fire etc. At every event we have to clear at least one family of idiots from between the rope lines where they have sat down "to get a better view". Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 If you have a full and frank discussion with your local school governer you will find it's not H&SE rulings that stop many things but just their fear of being sued Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Not long beleive me ... When I asked Roses school why they dont remove her when she goes into one they said they cant . I said why not They said its the law I said show me They dont like me :D Aint doing the kids any favors are they Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W3526602 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Hi, If my dog causes my neighbour damage or injury, I am liable. If my neighbours child causes me damage or injury, nobody is liable. Question is, which side of this argument am I on? But seeing as a mortgage implies Public Liability insurance, it might be worth a punt :-D 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 The "rule makers" are MPs. H&SE staff etc only interpret the rules they have made. Please have a go at those who make the rules because that is the only way you will get them changed. Graham Now I am confussed about what you are saying Graham. Because I think the rules in general are not the problem. It is the way some people in the H&SE interpret those rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 CliveH - 2009-06-20 7:54 AM The "rule makers" are MPs. H&SE staff etc only interpret the rules they have made. Please have a go at those who make the rules because that is the only way you will get them changed. Graham Now I am confussed about what you are saying Graham. Because I think the rules in general are not the problem. It is the way some people in the H&SE interpret those rules. Look back at my first post on this thread Clive. You will see that I made the point:Like any organisation which is bound to implement legislation it has to do what the legislation says - i.e. what parliament (our MPs) has decided the legislation should say. Even where there are areas which are open to interpretation (in which case some people will interpret harder than others) that is because parliament (our MPs) have not done their job properly to make sure that legislation isn't ambiguous. It is a fact of life that MPs sometimes pass legislation which is ambiguous and, as a consequence, the legislation is open to interpretation - but don't blame the interpretor for making a perfectly valid interpretation, blame the MPs for not being accurate in the first place. If the rules were not a problem they would be open to only a single valid interpretation. I also asked you yesterday Did the person who called him a spherical idiot actually take the trouble to study the legislation to challenge the interpretation? Or did he just spit his dummy out because he wasn't getting his own way? and Michele made a similar point when she posted Not long beleive me ... When I asked Roses school why they dont remove her when she goes into one they said they cant . I said why not They said its the law I said show me They dont like me Aint doing the kids any favors are they The point here is that if you do not think the interpretation is valid then challenge it - ask the person concerned to show you the legislation which backs their stance. If they know what they are doing - and, like people in any occupation, I bet that most of them do - they will be able to do so. I could certainly do so with the legislation I worked with. If I read your post about your carnival properly it appears that your committee was told, accurately, that, according to the law (not rules), it would be liable for certain accidents. That is basically the same as the point made by 602 about public liability insurance which is part of normal household buildings/contents insurance and insurance which businesses take out to cover themselves in the event of an accident on their premises. Don't blame the H&SE for that, they didn't make the law. Don't blame the H&SE because your committee decided it couldn't afford the premiums, they don't decide what premium to charge. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 colin - 2009-06-19 8:03 PM If you have a full and frank discussion with your local school governer you will find it's not H&SE rulings that stop many things but just their fear of being sued I received an e-mail from a friend in Canada this morning. In his message he says There was an article in the paper a few days ago about one of the volunteer search and rescue teams that get called out at all hours of the day to go search for skiers who have got lost and usually in the out of bounds areas. They are being sued by a guy who lost his wife, she died after several day's lost out in the back hills in the snow pack. Now they are getting sued by this jerk who went in the No Go areas. These volunteers have no insurance coverage or legal defense, the Government hasn't covered them because they are Volunteers!! So now they have quit until they get confirmation on their status, unbelievable. As I said previously, we need people to take responsibility for themselves and their actions - and if they won't do it off their own bat we need some sort of Responsibility Act. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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