You are logged in as a guest. 
  Home Forums Home  Search our Forums Search our Forums    Log in to the Forums Log in to the Forums  register Register on the Forums  

 Forums ->  General Chat -> Chatterbox
Jump to page : First 1 Last
Format:  Go
Supermarket Fuel
AuthorMessage
userhowie
Posted: 8 December 2006 7:03 PM
Subject: Supermarket Fuel
 


2000200010010025
Location: Dunnshargin


I,ve been following a debate in one of the magazines with regard to the pros and cons of using supermarket fuel compared to the more well known suppliers. The majority of views claim that using supermarket brands results in lower mpg, less power and that engines don,t run as smoothly.
I first heard of this a few years ago, when some of the lads who do high mileage with their jobs swore this was the case, with up to 15% more mpg being claimed by simply using "Esso" etc. instead of supermarkets.
Purely for convenience, I always fill up at my local Tesco,s, but i,m tempted to try elsewhere if only to see if this is true. Howard.
usercolin
Posted: 8 December 2006 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Legendary contributor

Posts: 8175
500020001000100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


We have found that it varies with vehicle. T25, Dutton with ford SOHC, old astra, sierra, granada, all no noticable difference, new astra runs better and more mpg with quality fuel.
userkelly58
Posted: 8 December 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 
Forum master

Posts: 2173
20001002525
Location: South Lincs


I was running a peugeot 106 diesel on supermarket fuel ( morrisons ) but one of our engineers who used to work for parkinsons the diesel pump specialists and he said on stripped down pumps running on supermarket fuel they were all black on the inside and the seals were dried out because supermarket fuel has all the waxes removed so its a good thing to put a bottle of cooking oil in the fuel tank to help lubricate the pump every 4 /5 fillups and adding fuel additive also helps .
regards kelly
userMel B
Posted: 8 December 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


The special one

Posts: 12468
5000500020001001001001002525
Location: E Yorks, 2015 Globecar FamilyScout L Ducato Maxi


Clive

Where are you - we need your expertise!!!
userflicka
Posted: 8 December 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Forum master

Posts: 4225
2000200010010025
Location: NE Lincolnshire - M/H - 2012 Adria Sport S572SL


Maybe I should not be saying this, but here goes anyway.
Fuels are available on a regional basis to a British Standard or EuroNorm and the "Oil" companies product share in various areas. The oil majors then dose their fuel (Petrol & Diesel) with their own brand additives.
The additives used by the 'oil majors' are obviously superior to other resellers, as they are at the forefront of R&D. This is what the oil majors use in their advertising, i.e. cleaner engines give better performance/power/mpg/ etc.. etc..
I am not saying Supermarkets do not use any additives, (I don't know) but their additives will not be as sofisticated or technologically advanced as the major Oil companies.
Flicka.
userhowie
Posted: 9 December 2006 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


2000200010010025
Location: Dunnshargin


Hi. I would not have thought previously that there were any major differences between the main suppliers, but Flicka,s comments re. additives might well have some bearing on this, and as we have quite a few brands on sale locally I see no harm in giving them a try if only to see if there really are any benifits from using another make of fuel. Howard.
userDave Newell
Posted: 9 December 2006 1:13 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Forum master

Posts: 3580
20001000500252525
Location: Telford, Shropshire


Bearing in mind that supermarkets do not (as far as I know) own any oil platforms or refining plants it becomes obvious that they must buy their fuel from the "majors". It follows then that the fuel from supermarkets will at least meet BS/EN for the fuel in question. Motor manufacturers build engines to run on the same BS/EN fuel therefore it should not make any significant difference to fuel consumption and certainly should not adversely affect the components of the fuel system.

D.
userhowie
Posted: 9 December 2006 5:31 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


2000200010010025
Location: Dunnshargin


This is a grey area for me as well Dave, but I was under the vague impression that bulk consignments are bought on the open market and then shipped to the U.K. for refinement and distribution.
If this is the case, then there must be the possibilty for varying quality when it comes to choosing the fuel you use. Howard.
userflicka
Posted: 9 December 2006 7:48 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Forum master

Posts: 4225
2000200010010025
Location: NE Lincolnshire - M/H - 2012 Adria Sport S572SL


My earlier post seems to have arosed some conflict, so I will try to elaborate a little.
Addmittedly the BS/EN specifications for fuel have changed over the years, basically to improvements required to reduce NOX & SOX emmissions.
Over and above the BS/EN specification changes the major oil companies are constantly spending fortunes improving fuels, whether it be petrol or diesel, because of market forces and engine developments. (i.e. the recent introduction of the many new models is because vehicle manufacturers had to meet the new EURO 4 specification for diesel engines from July 2006.) See below extracts from the major UK refiners websites extolling the virtues of their fuels. The latest generation additives developed by these majors are not going to be available to other resellers, such as the supermarkets and independents.
It's down to each individual if the benefits are sufficient to outweigh the cost differences at the Pumps. With the majority of Motorhome users, I suspect the detergent additives are most attractive as our vehicle can stand idle for some time, in comparison to a commercial operation where an increase in mpg can be a significant amount of money over a year.
From the websites:-
SHELL
Performance fuels
We supply premium fuels in a number of markets, which can help maximise the performance of your car. They result from extensive consumer research into what drivers want in each market: ranging from more power, better responsiveness, greater efficiency, and cleaner engines to better care for the environment. Our performance fuels have been tested and refined through our technical partnership with Ferrari in Formula One racing.
In the last five years dramatic developments in diesel engine technology have driven massive growth in the number of diesel passenger cars. Our premium diesel fuels are designed to enhance the sustained power and endurance these drivers are looking for. Shell's unique synthetic fuel technology - GTL - where natural gas is synthesized into a pure diesel fuel component without any of the impurities found in ordinary diesels will help make for a cleaner environment and is widely supported by many leading car manufacturers.
Up to 3% fuel economy with Shell Diesel Extra. Fuel economy at no extra cost. Shell Diesel Extra is designed to give your engine extra efficiency, extra protection and extra performance.

Exxon Mobil (Esso & Mobil)
Esso is introducing a new brand name, Energy. This name is being used to describe the high quality aspects of its family of automotive fuels.
The top grade petrol, Energy Supreme (UL 97) has been specially formulated to help clean up the engine fuel system and deliver more power. It helps provide smoother acceleration, reduced emissions, and improved fuel economy.
Launching at the same time is an improved diesel fuel, Energy Diesel, which has the ability to reduce the formation of harmful deposits in the engine. Energy Diesel also helps to lower emissions, delivers protection against corrosion, improves fuel economy, and enables a faster and cleaner fill.
Energy Unleaded (UL 95) continues to offer customers a standard high quality fuel, helping to keep the engine fuel systems clean and helping to deliver smoother acceleration, reduced emissions, and improved fuel economy.

BP
Not ordinary fuel, BP Ultimate is an advanced performance fuel, the superior choice to get the best out of your vehicle. An advanced performance fuel with outstanding engine cleaning power, which burns more smoothly and completely. Designed to give you more performance from your engine and less pollution from your exhaust. And available in both unleaded and diesel, depending upon your location.

Total
New TOTAL Excellium - Reduce fuel consumption by an average of 4%
link

Chevron (Texaco)
Texaco Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel is an environmentally friendly fuel, designed for use in both medium and high speed diesel engines. It is carefully blended to give properties such as quick starting, smoke control and reduced deposits. It also provides exceptional low temperature operation and protection from injector and pump wear.
ConocoPhillips (JET)
Quality PROclean Gasolines is among the highest quality available in the market and recently recognized by leading automakers as TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.
What's different about Quality PROclean Gasolines?
We raised the quality of our gasolines by raising our detergent additive program to levels that go far beyond the national standard – and exceed most competitive brands.
What do Quality PROclean Gasolines do for my car?
Using Quality PROclean Gasolines will maximize your car’s performance by:
· Helping to give you smoother acceleration
· Helping to restore performance
· Helping to reduce hesitation
· Helping to make your car more responsive


Flicka
userDave Newell
Posted: 9 December 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Forum master

Posts: 3580
20001000500252525
Location: Telford, Shropshire


"Texaco Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel is an environmentally friendly fuel"

Absolute bummocks! There is no such thing as an environmet friendly diesel fuel ( or any other internal combustion engine fuel with the exception of pure Hydrogen) as they all produce harmful emissions, just in differing quantities (Hydrogen is the exception because all it produces is water).

This is advertising speak for "our fuel is better because..........."

Some of the premium fuels may give better fuel economy under ideal conditions but the extra MPG is usually over-ridden by the extra cost! If these fuels were really better for the environment why aren't they subsidised and therefore cheaper? Is this down to the governments taxation policy or the oil companies greed?

D.
userDavid Dwight
Posted: 9 December 2006 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1023
1000
Location: South Berkshire


I think like you Dave. I have used all Brands of Diesel and Petrol over the years and never noticed any difference. As you say its all advertising bumff, I worked in the news trade for too long to be taken in with advertising and what the press say, sensationalism sells news. Economy etc depends on too many different factors, Remember the days of Arofoils for cars towing caravans what a money spinning gimmick.

David
usercolin
Posted: 9 December 2006 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Legendary contributor

Posts: 8175
500020001000100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


My experience indicates flicka is correct. As posted earlier older engines it seems to make no differance more modern engines run better on Shell/BP etc. The T25 etc get the cheapest fuel as it makes no differance, the new astra gets Shell/BP as it runs better and better MPG makes up for higher price
userflicka
Posted: 9 December 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Forum master

Posts: 4225
2000200010010025
Location: NE Lincolnshire - M/H - 2012 Adria Sport S572SL


Dave
Guess this takes us back to a previous tread about Bioethylene, then?

When they can increase the ratio of BioEthylene in Petrol, it will be more environmentally freindly but I suspect cost will still be the factor.
Like converting Petrol to LPG, running costs are reduced but with M/H's generally doing low mileage it is difficult to justify the conversion expense.

Now if they could produce the Bio fuel as Diesel replacement in viable quantities that would be a whole different ball game.
Flicka
userflicka
Posted: 9 December 2006 9:59 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Forum master

Posts: 4225
2000200010010025
Location: NE Lincolnshire - M/H - 2012 Adria Sport S572SL


Dave Newell - 2006-12-09 9:14 PM

Is this down to the governments taxation policy or the oil companies greed?

D.

In my opinion, definately government taxation.
A comparison was done 3 or 4 years ago and the net income to the oil companies per gallon of fuel had only risen at 1/10th of ithe RPI inflation rate over, if I remember correctly, 10years.
Oil Companies do make large profits occasionally, it's just that the turnover is so large the profits when expressed in £ values seem enormous. but in % terms, generally they only return the same dividend to their shareholders as other viable companies. They also need to invest very large amounts to meet changes in legislation, like the sulphur content reductions in fuels for 2000, 2005 and 2010.
Flicka
userDave Newell
Posted: 10 December 2006 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Forum master

Posts: 3580
20001000500252525
Location: Telford, Shropshire


flicka - 2006-12-09 9:59 PM

Dave Newell - 2006-12-09 9:14 PM

Is this down to the governments taxation policy or the oil companies greed?

D.

In my opinion, definately government taxation.
A comparison was done 3 or 4 years ago and the net income to the oil companies per gallon of fuel had only risen at 1/10th of ithe RPI inflation rate over, if I remember correctly, 10years.
Oil Companies do make large profits occasionally, it's just that the turnover is so large the profits when expressed in £ values seem enormous. but in % terms, generally they only return the same dividend to their shareholders as other viable companies. They also need to invest very large amounts to meet changes in legislation, like the sulphur content reductions in fuels for 2000, 2005 and 2010.
Flicka


"Guess this takes us back to a previous tread about Bioethylene, then?
" It was bioethanol actually Flicka (sorry I'm a pedant).

In general I'd agree with you except that oil companies don't "occasionaly" make large profits, they do it very regularly. The profit percentage might be relatively small but the totals are certainly not.

With regard to one brand of fuel giving better economy than others its worth noting that you have to compare like with like i.e. doing the same type of journeys over a significant period to measure a true difference. for example my work van (Bedford Rascal 970cc petrol) does about 27 MPG usually, that is just plodding around locally, going to work and back etc. Last week I had to go to Birmingham and back for five days and it averaged 38MPG for the week at a steady 56MPH (well when I wasn't in stationary traffic on the M6). If I'd happened to use supermarket fuel last week instead of my normal BP juice I might have thought the improvement had something to do with the different fuel.

D.
userFrank Wilkinson
Posted: 10 December 2006 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Profit totals are absolutely irrelevant. If a company is making billions in profit but that billions represents a tiny percentage of its turnover, or a meagre return on capital invested then it will not be able to pay dividends to its shareholders or to reinvest for the benefit of everyone.

Let's assume that I have a business in which I've invested one million pounds and it makes a profit of £50,000 per annum. A poor person may feel that £50,000 p.a. is a marvelous salary but no one with any sense would risk his money and put up with the aggravation of modern business when, by putting his cash into a building society, he can earn just as much and live longer and remain unstressed!

userWingpete
Posted: 10 December 2006 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Lives on the forums

Posts: 512
500
Location: S E London


Original sources of oils have big bearing on what comes out of the refinery, and eventually the exhaust pipes.
You may remember that North Sea oil was said to be one of the cleanest mineral oils available anywhere, hence it being sourced by refiners of exceptional quality lubricants. It was deemed too good for use as a vehicle propelant.
On the other hand, oil from Venezuela has been identified as THE most polluting of all, with a very high sulphuric content.
The emissions after this oil has been burned (as in engines or boilers ) are extremely acidic. One famous London Hospital I worked in used it.
When the new IT unit was constructed on the roof of the existing building, (made in lightweight aluminium) it was less than one year later that it was seen that the structure in aluminium was disintegrating.
Tests carried out proved that the oil was the cause, and it was decided that such pollution of the skys over London was unacceptable, so it's use ceased.
Incidently, I wonder what has happened to Mayor Livingstone's bid for cheap Venuzealan oil ?
userflicka
Posted: 10 December 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


Forum master

Posts: 4225
2000200010010025
Location: NE Lincolnshire - M/H - 2012 Adria Sport S572SL


Wingpete - 2006-12-10 2:34 PM

Original sources of oils have big bearing on what comes out of the refinery, and eventually the exhaust pipes.
You may remember that North Sea oil was said to be one of the cleanest mineral oils available anywhere, hence it being sourced by refiners of exceptional quality lubricants. It was deemed too good for use as a vehicle propelant.
On the other hand, oil from Venezuela has been identified as THE most polluting of all, with a very high sulphuric content.
The emissions after this oil has been burned (as in engines or boilers ) are extremely acidic. One famous London Hospital I worked in used it.
When the new IT unit was constructed on the roof of the existing building, (made in lightweight aluminium) it was less than one year later that it was seen that the structure in aluminium was disintegrating.
Tests carried out proved that the oil was the cause, and it was decided that such pollution of the skys over London was unacceptable, so it's use ceased.
Incidently, I wonder what has happened to Mayor Livingstone's bid for cheap Venuzealan oil ?


It sounds like they were using unrefined Crude Oil, for this to occur.

Yes, North Sea Crude is cleaner by virtue of lower sulphur content than Venuzealan, but there should be the same permitted sulphur content in the fuel after refining, irrespective of crude origin.
Because North Sea (Brent) Crude has a low sulphur content, it carries a $ premium over most other crudes, as refining costs are lower.
As an indicator the higher the sulphur content of a crude oil, the lower the $ price per barrel, to meet the extra refining costs, but other factors also apply. (transportation, etc.)
The BS/EN specifications dictate the sulphur content allowable in the Fuels sold
Flicka.
userForester
Posted: 13 December 2006 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: Supermarket Fuel
 


500100252525


I always thought that the petrol came from a refinery in the N/West & a mixture of tankers filled up there to replenish the pumps in & around the N/West?
Jump to page : First 1 Last
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread
Jump to forum :


(Delete all cookies set by this site)(Return to Homepage)

Any problems? Contact the administrator