Surveillance

[Syd]

Taken from Sky News

 

State Spied On 500,000 People Last Year

7:01am UK, Monday August 10, 2009

 

The row over using surveillance information to spy on people has intensified after it was revealed that 1,400 requests to snoop on the public were made every day last year.

 

Chris Huhne says the figures 'beggared belief'

 

Councils, police and the intelligence services asked more than 500,000 times for approval to access private email and phone data.

 

Each one allows public authorities access to communications data - which includes records of phone, email and text messages - but not their content.

 

The Home Office says the new figures "offer reassurance that the powers are being used appropriately".

 

But the Liberal Democrats' home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said the figures "beggared belief" and the country has "sleepwalked into a surveillance state".

 

"It cannot be a justified response to the problems we face in this country that the state is spying on half a million people a year.

 

"The Government forgets that George Orwell's 1984 was a warning, and not a blueprint."

 

The figures were published in the annual report of the Interception of Communications Commissioner, Sir Paul Kennedy.

 

It showed 504,073 requests for communication data were made last year, or nearly 10,000 every week.

 

Although slightly down on last year, the total is up more than 40% on two years ago.

 

A Home Office spokesman said: "Of course it's vital that we strike the right balance between individual privacy and collective security.

 

"And that is why the Home Office is clear these powers should only be used when they are proportionate."

 

 

[GJH]

It's a pity that the story only gives the headline figure for requests with no indication of how many (if any) were found by subsequent inspections to be disproportionate to the matter under investigation.

 

I have no direct experience of applications made by the police or intelligence services but I do have experience of applications made by local authorities. Typically, such applications are made during investigation of matters such as traders masquerading as private individuals for car sales and people selling counterfeit videos/CDs/DVDs.

 

It's a pretty convoluted procedure which can only be undertaken by previously nominated officers using Approved Forms to try to ensure proportionality.

 

Graham

[Syd]

where does the serious offence of "school places fraud" ie incorrect addresses come in this catagory

[Syd]

'Councils Must Stop Trivial Spying Missions'

8:39am UK, Friday April 17, 2009

 

Tom Parmenter, Sky News correspondent

 

The Home Secretary has called on councils to stop using surveillance powers to catch people for trivial offences.

 

Councils have been warned not to spy on residents' rubbish bin habits

 

The Government is also considering tightening the rules to make sure senior council managers are always involved in the decisions to authorise spying missions.

 

Jacqui Smith MP said: "The Government has absolutely no interest in spying on law-abiding people going about their everyday lives.

 

"I don't want to see these powers being used to target people for putting their bins out on the wrong day or dog fouling offences."

 

It comes after concerns from all corners of the country about the invasion of surveillance into peoples' lives.

 

Liberal Democrat research shows that powers originally designed to help tackle terrorism were used more than 10,000 times in England and Wales in the last five years.

 

But just 9% of these led to a successful prosecution, caution or fixed-penalty notice.

 

Isabella Sankey, policy director at Liberty told Sky News: "Of course surveillance can be justified - but it has to be proportionate, it has to be legitimate, and it has to be shown to be necessary."

 

The flip-side of over-zealous surveillance is that spying can achieve positive results for communities.

 

Local Government Minister John Healey said: "Whether cracking down on rogue traders, loan sharks or fly-tippers, councils are in the front line in tackling some of the toughest problems faced by communities, but these powers must be used in a way that commands the public's confidence."

 

 

 

[GJH]

Syd - 2009-08-10 10:46 AM

 

where does the serious offence of "school places fraud" ie incorrect addresses come in this catagory

It doesn't, unless it is proportionate. The famous case for school places was (I think) Poole. That council was correctly bounced for not applying the proportionality test properly. That isn't to say, though, that it would always be disproportionate. One of the basic principles is that every case must be treated on its merits - no standard wording, no formulaic short cuts, each case is different.

 

One senior executive dubbed me the only bureaucrat to have forced him to do something he didn't want to when I wouldn't fill in the form for him or allow him to use standard wording. I can't think of a better compliment in the circumstances becasue it meant I'd done the job properly.

 

During my time working on RIPA we went through two inspections and we achieved very good results on both occasions. They were still tough experiences though and I would hate to have been in the shoes of the people responsible at Poole. The Surveillance Commissioner's people are very fair but they certainly don't lack any toughness. You do not mess with them if you know what is good for you :-)

 

Graham

[GJH]

Syd - 2009-08-10 10:55 AM

 

(snip)

 

Liberal Democrat research shows that powers originally designed to help tackle terrorism were used more than 10,000 times in England and Wales in the last five years.

 

(snip)

Part of the problem is inaccurate reporting like this. We are not just talking about powers to tackle terrorism. All sorts of public authorities were given investigatory powers over the years but then found that they were unable to use them after the Human Rights Act became law.

 

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act was passed to provide a framework for lawful use of those powers which would not allow criminals to use the HRA to wriggle out of prosecution.

 

The clue is in the title - RIPA regulates powers, it does not provide them.

 

Graham

[malc d]

What is not clear to me is just how many people were being spied on.

 

If there were 500,000 requests, were they for 500,000 different people ?

If the authourities were checking up on someone they would presumably tap his / her phone more than once.

 

It's a worrying trend though - too many people are being given too much authourity it seems to me.

 

:-(

[Syd]

Dont worry too much Malc

Only 9% of them end up with a presecution, wonder what happens to the information gleaned. Bet you two things, one it will be added to a file that is being kept on that person, two, it will end up in the hands of criminals

[GJH]

malc d - 2009-08-10 1:17 PM

 

What is not clear to me is just how many people were being spied on.

 

If there were 500,000 requests, were they for 500,000 different people ?

If the authourities were checking up on someone they would presumably tap his / her phone more than once.

 

It's a worrying trend though - too many people are being given too much authourity it seems to me.

 

:-(

It probably is the case that they were not for 500,000 different people. When powers are used properly the approval has a limited life.

 

It isn't true to say that these were all phone tapping (which means recording of content) either. In the case of the 1500 local authority requests they couldn't be as LAs can only request details of account holders not of calls. In many other cases I would expect that only calling and called numbers were requested rather than call content.

 

As regards people being given too much authority, as I mentioned earlier this is nothing new. The only thing that is new is the control exercised by RIPA which actually enables the numbers to be collated and monitored. Previously it went on but because there was no monitoring there were no figures to publish.

 

Syd - 2009-08-10 1:57 PM

Dont worry too much Malc

Only 9% of them end up with a presecution, wonder what happens to the information gleaned. Bet you two things, one it will be added to a file that is being kept on that person, two, it will end up in the hands of criminals

This is one of the misunderstandings which result from the mis-reporting that I mentioned. The 9% relates to covert surveillance requests which are different from the 500,000 communication requests.

 

The two things are dealt with by different parts of RIPA. Reporters, of course don't bother to point that out as it could get in the way of a sesational headline and would entail them actually learning what the legislation is about.

 

Graham

[malc d]

Syd - 2009-08-10 1:57 PM

 

Dont worry too much Malc

Only 9% of them end up with a presecution, wonder what happens to the information gleaned. Bet you two things, one it will be added to a file that is being kept on that person, two, it will end up in the hands of criminals

 

 

That's one of the 'downsides' of computers Syd; Databases !

 

There are a lot of people now who just like to gather and store information, simply because they can do it easily.

 

(..... and just think how many jobs you can create by collecting and storing data !)

 

 

 

 

 

;-)

[maggyd]

I don't want to see these powers being used to target people for putting their bins out on the wrong day or dog fouling offences."

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Personally I WOULD LOVE TO SEE PEOPLE taken to task for dog fouling offences!! I have a dog and pick up! >:-( and so should everyone else!! Im sick to death of the lazy pig that lets his dog foul on the pathway beside my bungalow!! a couple of neighbour and I requested a DogBin thinking it would improve!! most people use it ! but I would love to catch the one that thinks they are above that sort of thing!

 

Why are people worried about camera,s ?? you might be gratefull of them if you were being attacked.

 

As usual the media has nothing better to report on so goes digging for something to get people up in arms about and exagerating to start people panicing.

 

 

[Syd]

 

Police Complaint

This is supposed to be a genuine complaint to Devon & Cornwall Police Force from an angry member of the public.

--------------

Dear Sir/Madam/Automated telephone answering service,

Having spent the past twenty minutes waiting for someone at Bodmin

police station to pick up a telephone I have decided to abandon the

idea and try e-mailing you instead.

 

Perhaps you would be so kind as to pass this message on to your

colleagues in Bodmin, by means of smoke signal, carrier pigeon or

Ouija board.

 

As I'm writing this e-mail there are eleven failed medical experiments

(I think you call them youths) in St Mary's Crescent, which is just

off St Mary's Road in Bodmin.

 

Six of them seem happy enough to play a game which involves kicking a

football against an iron gate with the force of a meteorite. This

causes an earth shattering CLANG! which rings throughout the entire

building.

This game is now in its third week and as I am unsure how the scoring

system works, I have no idea if it will end any time soon.

 

The remaining five failed-abortions are happily rummaging through

several bags of rubbish and items of furniture that someone has so

thoughtfully dumped beside the wheelie bins. One of them has found a

saw and is setting about a discarded chair like a beaver on ecstasy

pills.

 

I fear that it's only a matter of time before they turn their limited

attention to the caravan gas bottle that is lying on its side between

the two bins.

If they could be relied on to only blow their own arms and legs off

then I would happily leave them to it. I would even go so far as to

lend them the matches.

 

Unfortunately they are far more likely to blow up half the street with

them and I've just finished decorating the kitchen.

 

What I suggest is this - after replying to this e-mail with worthless

assurances that the matter is being looked into and will be dealt

with, why not leave it until the one night of the year (probably bath

night) when there are no mutants around then drive up the street in a

Panda car before doing a three point turn and disappearing again. This

will of course serve no other purpose than to remind us what policemen

actually look like.

 

I trust that when I take a claw hammer to the skull of one of these

throwbacks you'll do me the same courtesy of giving me a four month

head start before coming to arrest me.

 

I remain your obedient servant

???????

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Mr ??????,

 

I have read your e-mail and understand your frustration at the

problems caused by youths playing in the area and the problems you

have encountered in trying to contact the police.

 

As the Community Beat Officer for your street I would like to extend

an offer of discussing the matter fully with you.

 

Should you wish to discuss the matter, please provide contact details

(address / telephone number) and when may be suitable.

 

Regards

PC ???????

Community Beat Officer

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Dear PC ???????

First of all I would like to thank you for the speedy response to my

original e-mail.

 

16 hours and 38 minutes must be a personal record for Bodmin Police

Station, and rest assured that I will forward these details to Norris

McWhirter for inclusion in his next Guinness book.

 

Secondly I was delighted to hear that our street has its own Community

Beat Officer.

 

May I be the first to congratulate you on your covert skills? In the

five or so years I have lived in St Mary's Crescent , I have never

seen you. Do you hide up a tree or have you gone deep undercover and

infiltrated the gang itself? Are you the one with the acne and the

moustache on his forehead or the one with a chin like a wash hand

basin? It's surely only a matter of time before you are head-hunted by

MI5 to look for Osama.

 

Whilst I realise that there may be far more serious crimes taking

place in Bodmin, such as smoking in a public place or being Christian

without due care and attention, is it too much to ask for a policeman

to explain (using words of no more than two syllables at a time) to

these twits that they might want to play their strange football game

elsewhere.

 

The pitch on Fairpark Road , or the one at Priory Park are both within

spitting distance as is the bottom of the Par Dock, the latter being

the preferred option especially if the tide is in.

 

Should you wish to discuss these matters further you should feel free

to contact me on ??? If after 25 minutes I have still failed to

answer, I'll buy you a large one in the Cat and Fiddle Pub.

 

Regards

?????????

 

P.S If you think that this is sarcasm, think yourself lucky that you

don't work for the sewerage department with whom I am also in contact

!!!

 

 

 

[CliveH]

Anyone see that program on last night about the Housing Association people that where having to deal with clearing out a flat where someone had died and in another case a “lady” that was up to all sorts and making the life of a poor old dear that lived next door, a misery as well as a another young mum that this nasty piece of work was trying to extort £30 out of by bullying text messages.

 

Very interesting programme because the HA was able to get the Police involved and issue some sort of injunction banning that person from being antisocial. Then with CCTV cameras in the house next door the evidence was presented that the problems still occurred with this awful woman and the case went to court and the obnoxious woman was given a 6 mth jail term!

 

AND she had to hand back her HA house!

 

Now I have to say that I thought that was a result! And a very good example of where surveillance cameras had a very good effect indeed. Without them I doubt that the innocent people that just wanted a quiet life would now have theirs back.

 

[CliveH]

Damn - sorry about the "h" in "were"

 

Why do I always only see such silly mistakes AFTER I post?

[GJH]

I didn't see the TV programme but, yes, a good example of how covert surveillance can be used proportionately.

 

One of our sons had a camera installed in his house by the police when he was suffering vandalism to his car. That was about 14 or 15 years ago and it, too, resulted in the criminals being caught.

 

Graham

 

[Syd]

When I first posted this report I was not concerned about what was or was not in or missed out of the report as to me that wasn't really the important message.

The really important message that I thought this report gave out was the fact that this type of surveillance is so prevalent.

It supprised me

[maggyd]

Its a case of What needs Must (!) and did you see the back streets littered with rubbish that the rammy householders had just dumped outsides their gates? if we All did that we would be knee deep in rubbish and rats!! bring on the camera,s if we didnt have a country full of lazy louts we wouldnt need them! The more we travel the more discusted I am of some of the people that live on the island. :-S

[GJH]

In case anyone is interested, the Report of the Interception of Communications Commissioner for 2008 is now available on-line Here.

 

The Report of the Chief Surveillance Commissioner (which deals with covert surveillance of the sort used in the case mentioned by Clive) is Here.

 

The Report of the Intelligence Services Commissioner (the third of the three Commissioners who oversee the various parts of RIPA) is Here.

 

See also Hansard - Chief Surveillance Commissioner, Interception of Communications Commissioner and Intelligence Service.

 

Taken together the reports give some insight into why and how the various powers are used, which might answer some of the questions raised in earlier posts.

 

Graham

[malc d]

Thanks for the links Graham; makes quite interesting reading.

( Haven't been through it all yet though ).

 

 

 

 

 

[Basil]

Yes thanks Graham, that puts a whole different reflection on the question being discussed. The most pertinant point for me is that the overseeing body quotes only 595 errors, not bad out of over 500000 I think, unless I have misunderstood the facts (only one being made falsly or a deliberate error).

 

Bas