StuartO Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Boris is telling the EU that the Backstop is unacceptable and will result in the UK leaving without a deal, so the EU needs to talk to the UK to work out an alternative. The EU is saying that the Withdrawal Agreement they had with Theresa May (which could not be ratified by our Parliament, failing three times) is their only offer and the Backstop is their red line for any deal at all. The EU could impose difficulties on the UK by obstructing the Dover-Calais border but this would be bound to impact seriously on Ireland too because they use that crossing to reach continental Europe. The EU are demanding proposals from UK and are unwilling to make any themselves. So it's a Mexican Standoff. If there is a no deal exit then Ireland will have the legal obligation (according to EU law) to establish a customs (i.e. a hard) border with Northern Ireland and UK, which will be enormously difficult and damaging for them to do, so they probably can't. The UK on the other hand will be free to keep the border in Ireland open, if the Republic of Ireland are also willing. UK could contrive to burden Ireland disporportionately with any difficulties at Calais or Dover. It seems to me that Ireland have the more pressing problems. How can the EU possibly hope to gain from this standoff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 StuartO - 2019-08-20 1:22 PM How can the EU possibly hope to gain from this standoff? They're hoping our Remoaner biased Parliament will topple Boris ;-) ......... All they'll achieve is another election B-) ........... If they do then Doomanic and Co will be collecting their P45's >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 So we say” get rid of back stop” Eu say no. If we leave without a deal there is no backstop anyway?? I still don’t understand the big deal about having a boarder. It’s not that complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-08-21 9:33 AM So we say” get rid of back stop” Eu say no. If we leave without a deal there is no backstop anyway?? I still don’t understand the big deal about having a boarder. It’s not that complicated. You have not been following Brexit have you? Putting up a border in Ireland not only goes against all the Brexit promises made by this government, it will lead to a breach of the Good Friday Agreement, is illegal and if you want any kind of trade deal with the USA this will scupper it. Boris's latest shift the blame scam is to now suggest Dublin (Ireland) temporarily pretend not to be in the EU to avoid a hard border. So far he has made sure he can shift the blame to the EU for not negotiating and now he is going to share that blame with Dublin. All in preparation for when it all goes tits up so he can say it wasnt his fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Pat Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 StuartO - 2019-08-20 1:22 PM Boris is telling the EU that the Backstop is unacceptable and will result in the UK leaving without a deal, so the EU needs to talk to the UK to work out an alternative. The EU is saying that the Withdrawal Agreement they had with Theresa May (which could not be ratified by our Parliament, failing three times) is their only offer and the Backstop is their red line for any deal at all. The EU could impose difficulties on the UK by obstructing the Dover-Calais border but this would be bound to impact seriously on Ireland too because they use that crossing to reach continental Europe. The EU are demanding proposals from UK and are unwilling to make any themselves. So it's a Mexican Standoff. If there is a no deal exit then Ireland will have the legal obligation (according to EU law) to establish a customs (i.e. a hard) border with Northern Ireland and UK, which will be enormously difficult and damaging for them to do, so they probably can't. The UK on the other hand will be free to keep the border in Ireland open, if the Republic of Ireland are also willing. UK could contrive to burden Ireland disporportionately with any difficulties at Calais or Dover. It seems to me that Ireland have the more pressing problems. How can the EU possibly hope to gain from this standoff? Aside from the GFA which Barry has highlighted the problem with, the UK will have no option to put a hard border to comply with WTO rules, also what will we do with all those migrants crossing into the UK from the ROI if there's no checks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 It's all a bit like Simple Simon, isn't it, where the Pie-man (the EU) says "show me first your penny", and Simple Simon replies, "indeed, I have not any"! The backstop was a concession that would allow the UK to disengage from the EU while retaining single market access and maintaining the four freedoms, while a workable solution to the Irish border was negotiated. If the solution were as simple as the Brexiters profess, why on earth don't they just explain how it will all work? That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. Then they think they'll just trot off around the world negotiating trade deals. Just ask yourselves, would you negotiate a trade deal with these people? Are we not the people who took pride in claiming "my word is my bond"? No more, it seems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM It's all a bit like Simple Simon, isn't it, where the Pie-man (the EU) says "show me first your penny", and Simple Simon replies, "indeed, I have not any"! The backstop was a concession that would allow the UK to disengage from the EU while retaining single market access and maintaining the four freedoms, while a workable solution to the Irish border was negotiated. If the solution were as simple as the Brexiters profess, why on earth don't they just explain how it will all work? That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. Then they think they'll just trot off around the world negotiating trade deals. Just ask yourselves, would you negotiate a trade deal with these people? Are we not the people who took pride in claiming "my word is my bond"? No more, it seems! Summed up perfectly Brian. I'm ashamed of my country as we are coming across like some dodgy back street car dealer or one of those loathsome double glazing salesmen in a cheap shiny suit who promises the earth and daft old ladies fall for the spin. Trouble is the EU and all those funny foreigners are not daft old ladies and will just see the UK as I do. They are literally laughing at us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Yes Barry, the Government and its Departments are not to be trusted ... ... by the way, did you watch the News? It seems the Office for National Statistics have made statistical errors. Apparently the number of EU arrivals was underestimated. Oh yes, also the number of arrivals from non EU countries was overestimated. It would appear that all the figures that Remainers quoted as official Government sources were in fact FAKE NEWS. :D You have been had me lad. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-08-21 7:53 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM It's all a bit like Simple Simon, isn't it, where the Pie-man (the EU) says "show me first your penny", and Simple Simon replies, "indeed, I have not any"! The backstop was a concession that would allow the UK to disengage from the EU while retaining single market access and maintaining the four freedoms, while a workable solution to the Irish border was negotiated. If the solution were as simple as the Brexiters profess, why on earth don't they just explain how it will all work? That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. Then they think they'll just trot off around the world negotiating trade deals. Just ask yourselves, would you negotiate a trade deal with these people? Are we not the people who took pride in claiming "my word is my bond"? No more, it seems! Summed up perfectly Brian. I'm ashamed of my country as we are coming across like some dodgy back street car dealer or one of those loathsome double glazing salesmen in a cheap shiny suit who promises the earth and daft old ladies fall for the spin. Trouble is the EU and all those funny foreigners are not daft old ladies and will just see the UK as I do. They are literally laughing at us. Then leave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM It's all a bit like Simple Simon, isn't it, where the Pie-man (the EU) says "show me first your penny", and Simple Simon replies, "indeed, I have not any"! The backstop was a concession that would allow the UK to disengage from the EU while retaining single market access and maintaining the four freedoms, while a workable solution to the Irish border was negotiated. If the solution were as simple as the Brexiters profess, why on earth don't they just explain how it will all work? Do any of 'em actually know? That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. The usual boisterous trio have gone rather quiet on this.....can't think why. Then they think they'll just trot off around the world negotiating trade deals. Just ask yourselves, would you negotiate a trade deal with these people? Are we not the people who took pride in claiming "my word is my bond"? No more, it seems! We've just achieved something no other country has done by p*ssing off Canada in a disgraceful display of crass lack of diplomacy over the Letts saga. Canada, one of the the least offensive or troublesome nations on planet earth which fought alongside us in both wars from day one, unlike US, and share the same sovereign.....yet we go and sh*t on them big time. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM It's all a bit like Simple Simon, isn't it, where the Pie-man (the EU) Have you found a decent pie in the EU Brian? :-S ......... The only half decent pies I've found were made by Brit butchers working in the sun B-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM It's all a bit like Simple Simon, isn't it, where the Pie-man (the EU) says "show me first your penny", and Simple Simon replies, "indeed, I have not any"! The backstop was a concession that would allow the UK to disengage from the EU while retaining single market access and maintaining the four freedoms, while a workable solution to the Irish border was negotiated. If the solution were as simple as the Brexiters profess, why on earth don't they just explain how it will all work? The solution is........ accepting there never was a issue with importing pork etc at the NI borders ;-) ........ The problem was Semtex and weapons *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. I suggest its folk like you who refuse to accept the problems are solvable *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM Then they think they'll just trot off around the world negotiating trade deals. ! We are the 5th biggest economy out of a 193 Brian ;-) .......... I suspect post Brexit they'll be a queue :D ...... Our only choice will be should we put the EU at the back of it? >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-21 9:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. I suggest its folk like you who refuse to accept the problems are solvable *-) .......... So to answer Brians question in it's full context perhaps you will now explain how it will all work? Can we look forward to something more than your usual inane one liner tweets in response? This should be most interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-08-21 9:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-21 9:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. I suggest its folk like you who refuse to accept the problems are solvable *-) .......... So to answer Brians question in it's full context perhaps you will now explain how it will all work? Can we look forward to something more than your usual inane one liner tweets in response? This should be most interesting. It will work because the Irish economy will be fecked unless it does ;-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-21 9:58 PM Bulletguy - 2019-08-21 9:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-21 9:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. I suggest its folk like you who refuse to accept the problems are solvable *-) .......... So to answer Brians question in it's full context perhaps you will now explain how it will all work? Can we look forward to something more than your usual inane one liner tweets in response? This should be most interesting. It will work because the Irish economy will be fecked unless it does ;-) ......... How informative.....i imagine Brian will be enthralled to read such a detailed response to his question which remains unanswered. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-08-21 10:07 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-21 9:58 PM Bulletguy - 2019-08-21 9:47 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-21 9:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. I suggest its folk like you who refuse to accept the problems are solvable *-) .......... So to answer Brians question in it's full context perhaps you will now explain how it will all work? Can we look forward to something more than your usual inane one liner tweets in response? This should be most interesting. It will work because the Irish economy will be fecked unless it does ;-) ......... How informative.....i imagine Brian will be enthralled to read such a detailed response to his question which remains unanswered. :-| Cant say I'm bothered ;-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-08-21 9:58 PM Bulletguy - 2019-08-21 9:47 PM Can we look forward to something more than your usual inane one liner tweets in response? . It will work because the Irish economy will be fecked unless it does ;-) ......... A simple 'No' would have sufficed :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 John52 - 2019-08-21 10:40 PM pelmetman - 2019-08-21 9:58 PM Bulletguy - 2019-08-21 9:47 PM Can we look forward to something more than your usual inane one liner tweets in response? . It will work because the Irish economy will be fecked unless it does ;-) ......... A simple 'No' would have sufficed :-S What's your problem with reality? :D ............ Is it because the fact is your Remoaner arguments have been stuffed? >:-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Birdbrain - 2019-08-21 8:28 PM Barryd999 - 2019-08-21 7:53 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM It's all a bit like Simple Simon, isn't it, where the Pie-man (the EU) says "show me first your penny", and Simple Simon replies, "indeed, I have not any"! The backstop was a concession that would allow the UK to disengage from the EU while retaining single market access and maintaining the four freedoms, while a workable solution to the Irish border was negotiated. If the solution were as simple as the Brexiters profess, why on earth don't they just explain how it will all work? That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. Then they think they'll just trot off around the world negotiating trade deals. Just ask yourselves, would you negotiate a trade deal with these people? Are we not the people who took pride in claiming "my word is my bond"? No more, it seems! Summed up perfectly Brian. I'm ashamed of my country as we are coming across like some dodgy back street car dealer or one of those loathsome double glazing salesmen in a cheap shiny suit who promises the earth and daft old ladies fall for the spin. Trouble is the EU and all those funny foreigners are not daft old ladies and will just see the UK as I do. They are literally laughing at us. Then leave Not so easy now though is it? Your act of self harm ends freedom of movement on November 1 and with so much uncertainty it would be unwise to sell up and bugger off. Anyway why should I leave? I suppose it would be convenient if all those pesky remoaners just buggered off. I don't want to see my country turned into a mad max landscape from Dystopian fiction as David Davis said when nobody was even imagining it. I would rather the Brexiteers all bought an island somewhere, turned it into a fortress and just all went and lived on that together not letting anyone in or out. Then we could just get on with being part of the modern global village Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Modern global village..don’t make me larf. You’ve obviously been sipping strong tea. It’s easy just to ignore all the parts of the disfunctional Eu that don’t work and pretend ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-08-22 10:35 AM It’s easy just to ignore all the parts of the disfunctional Eu that don’t work and pretend ... That's what all the politicians did - and why we ended up with Brexit. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-08-22 10:22 AM Birdbrain - 2019-08-21 8:28 PM Barryd999 - 2019-08-21 7:53 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM It's all a bit like Simple Simon, isn't it, where the Pie-man (the EU) says "show me first your penny", and Simple Simon replies, "indeed, I have not any"! The backstop was a concession that would allow the UK to disengage from the EU while retaining single market access and maintaining the four freedoms, while a workable solution to the Irish border was negotiated. If the solution were as simple as the Brexiters profess, why on earth don't they just explain how it will all work? That they refuse rather suggests that they know full well it is not solvable, while being feeble-minded enough to "think" that if we leave with no agreement on the border, leaving the EU to protect its own external border, no one will think that has anything to do with the UK. Then they think they'll just trot off around the world negotiating trade deals. Just ask yourselves, would you negotiate a trade deal with these people? Are we not the people who took pride in claiming "my word is my bond"? No more, it seems! Summed up perfectly Brian. I'm ashamed of my country as we are coming across like some dodgy back street car dealer or one of those loathsome double glazing salesmen in a cheap shiny suit who promises the earth and daft old ladies fall for the spin. Trouble is the EU and all those funny foreigners are not daft old ladies and will just see the UK as I do. They are literally laughing at us. Then leave Not so easy now though is it? Your act of self harm ends freedom of movement on November 1 and with so much uncertainty it would be unwise to sell up and bugger off. Anyway why should I leave? I suppose it would be convenient if all those pesky remoaners just buggered off. I don't want to see my country turned into a mad max landscape from Dystopian fiction as David Davis said when nobody was even imagining it. I would rather the Brexiteers all bought an island somewhere, turned it into a fortress and just all went and lived on that together not letting anyone in or out. Then we could just get on with being part of the modern global village "Anyway why should I leave" ... You know what thousand and thousands and thousands of folk up and down this land have felt the same as you but had to leave the Bradfords , the Londons , the Lutons etc etc because of something you say we should welcome while living miles from it ... You don't live in a "global village" princess , you preach about it but hypocritically lives miles from it ... Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-08-21 7:32 PM .... The backstop was a concession that would allow the UK to disengage from the EU while retaining single market access and maintaining the four freedoms, while a workable solution to the Irish border was negotiated. .... A concession to the UK? How did you work that one out Brian? I thought it was a safeguard for Ireland's benefit, hence the EU insistence on it, keeping the UK tied in to EU trading terms (including no trade deals with anyone else) until a solution to the Irish Border acceptable to the EU was achieved. The UK could terminate this arrangement except with EU agreement. Isn't this indefinite tie-in why it is so unaccceptable to so many in UK? If we leave with no deal won't that leave the Irish with no guarantees at all from UK and with their EU legal obligation to establish an external border with N Ireland? By insisting on the backstop or nothing, aren't they holding a gun to their own head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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