BGD Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Take a look at this depiction of an iceberg. It provides an illustration of just how much trouble we in Britain are in. Above the waterline, you can see what the Government publically describes as the official public debt. But it's only a tiny fraction of the real, vast iceberg of borrowing which has holed our economy below the waterline. As you can see, the true extent of our national indebtedness dwarfs the published figure. As former Prime Minister Sir John Major wrote yesterday: 'Debt has been this Government's biggest growth industry.' The official figure for total state borrowing is an already £645billion but there are a number of other key factors that Mr Brown publically ignores. For a start, public debt should include the Private Finance Initiative, Network Rail, the banking bail-out, the commitments that we took on when Bradford & Bingley was nationalised and future promises on public sector pensions (on all of which, more below). This comes to £2,366 billion. That's 157per cent of our annual GDP! (Germanys’ total debt, using the same criteria, is only 65% of their GDP…and that includes their costs in absorbing the then-bankrupt old East Germany) On top of all this is also British personal indebtedness, now at £1,457billion (£58,733 per household) - that's £1,219billion in mortgages and £238billion in consumer credit. This makes us the most indebted nation in the developed world; our interest payments alone are now £263 million a day. Yes, you did read that correctly: each day. Put it with the real national debt, and the total debt burden that will have to be met in the future by Britons via extra taxation is £3,823 billion, or £155,000 per household. That's how much your household now really owes and will have to pay back, because you live in Britain, and the only way the debts can be repaid is via taxation. And while individuals are in many cases now cutting back on their spending and use of credit cards as they try to adjust to the economic downturn, the opposite is true for the Government. Independent estimates of this year's extra public borrowing already assume it will be around £60 billion, rising to at least £100billion next year. And that's before the Prime Minister embarks on any further 'fiscal stimulus' (yet more borrowing, which has to be paid back by more taxes in years to come) So how did it get this bad? Well, whilst Labour enjoyed ten years of rising tax receipts and falling social security spending, they still managed to nearly double our national debt, by still spending far more than they were receiving thoughout that “boom” period. They lived on the “never-never”, in exactly the same way as the banks and individuals that they now criticise for “lack of prudence”. Except that the profligacy of the Government dwarfs that of anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 From the second sentance I asume this has been lifted from elsewhere or have you moved back? As for the rest! without trying to minimise(?) the problems we have, the phrase "lies, damn lies, and statistics" comes to mind. I used to work for "big bob" and he used to do it the other way round to boost the apparent value of his assets. We have a big problem at moment how bad will it get? well half the "experts" making the predictions never saw this coming so do we believe them? If we do it can be asumed it will get as bad as when the last conservative government was in power! So hang on folks it's going to be a bumpy ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted November 14, 2008 Author Share Posted November 14, 2008 Colin - I'm not sure I follow your points. So are you saying that you don't believe these numbers...which come from the Office of National Statistics? Or that you do believe these numbers, but that they don't matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 As regards PFI etc, some of us have been pointing this out for years. Don't forget, also, the so-called arms length companies created to take over housing stock from local authorities. All devices invented by New Labour to keep the PSBR down. Colin is right about "lies, damned lies & statistics" though: 1) It isn't all of us who have personal debt and many people have relatively small levels. The problem arises from the "want it all, want it now, whether I can afford it or not" crowd. 2) It isn't all public sector pension schemes which are in trouble covering their liabilities. As I said on a thread a month ago, I don't often sing the praises of Middlesbrough Council but its record of managing the Teesside Pension fund has been top class. To quote from a report earlier this year "The latest valuation showed that the Fund was in such a healthy state, with the investments covering 99% of the future liabilities, that most employers were able to reduce the amount being paid in, thereby releasing money for front-line services". It's totally untrue to say that no money has been put aside to pay the pensions. It's also worth remembering that those employers which took contribution holidays in the past included Conservative run councils as well as Labour. 3) Bail-outs of the banks and Bradford & Bingley plus the creation of Network Rail all arose because of the failure of the private companies concerned to run their businesses properly. I carry no torch for the government we've had for the last 11 years - but neither do I place much faith in graphics like the one displayed. Incidentally, it would be interesting to know the source of the graphic. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 I don't know why he bothers with all this doom and gloom. He doesn't even live here, but seems more bothered about it than us that do. Perhaps he's got a grudge against us that still live here and wants us to feel bad. >:-) >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinou Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 It's not working..... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 What his awaited terse reply or his attempt to put the frighteners on people. Must be a very sad person to go to all that effort for nothing. >:-) >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza454 Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 He's probably not responding because you have not added any value to his well informed and interesting comments that affect all of us. All you have done is added a couple of sarcastic comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 I think we could really do with a separate ' political lectures' section of the forum. :-( :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 Found the graphic. Not surprised at all to find that it was published in the Daily Mail - see HERE. So, not to worry, some - or even all - of the figures might be true but the story has to be fiction >:-) >:-) Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 On the thread that I started 'Of interest to all' where I mentioned the rising unemployment figures and the increased difficulty of signing on the dole, I was shouted down by a particular individual who was of the opinion that all those who sign on are scroungers, he even went on to attack their children as future scroungers. This recession that we are in is going to hit everyone right across the board from the unskilled labourer to the highly paid professionals and there is going to be a lot of pain. Repossessed houses, cars and dare I say it.... campervans and motorhomes, the only growth industry at the moment over here are pawn shops and bailiffs who work for the county courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 He does seem a bit politically motivated, doesn't he? Not so surprised it comes from the Daily Mail, it seems to have that kind of hysterical slant to it.It is, of course, true that we all have too much debt on average, and that now was not the best time to have the infamous credit crunch. However, I think it very unlikely any of the other political parties (if in power) would have behaved much differently from the present government. They have all developed wonderful judgement in hindsight, but there weren't many dogs barking a year or more back. In truth, it is us, and not government, who have really caused the recession, by spending like loonies money we didn't have until someone said credit crunch, and then stopping. It is us because we run the businesses (and banks): the government only runs its income/expenditure. Should they have been wiser that the rest of us? Undoubtedly. Should they have acted to check our unbounded borrowed exuberance? Of course.Its a bit like the drunken party: killjoy says everyone is getting plastered and should stop drinking, but the drunks all say they're having far too much fun, so killjoy just shuts up because he doesn't want to make himself unpopular. Politicians do so like to be popular!However, despite all that, I think blaming the government for Network Rail is a bit rich. It only arose because to the appalling botch, against informed advice, of the privatisation of the railways. I also think blaming the government for PFI is a bit unrealistic. I seem to remember it was invented by the Conservatives and, having been invented, it was far too tempting for "New" Labour to set aside when they needed to spend a lot to put right years of neglect and underinvestment. One could argue for hours over who might have done what if in power: I do not seek to defend or condone the stupidities of the last fifteen or more years, but we are where we are, and the only way out is forwards - not crawling over the causes. The analysis, I think, can wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 Brian, One thing you can be sure of, is that lessons will be learned from this particular crisis, people will not be so ready to be jumping into debt to buy this that and the other, a young guy up the street from me is in serious financial trouble, dont know how his situation is going to pan out, but its not looking good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 catinou - 2008-11-14 9:23 PM It's not working..... ;-) Labour's not working! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 Tracker - 2008-11-15 8:54 PM catinou - 2008-11-14 9:23 PM It's not working..... ;-) Labour's not working! No matter what party is in power, its the ordinary Joe that pays, I think prince Charles should dip in his pocket to give the lads on the dole a Christmas drink? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 knight of the road - 2008-11-15 7:56 PM Brian, One thing you can be sure of, is that lessons will be learned from this particular crisis, people will not be so ready to be jumping into debt to buy this that and the other, a young guy up the street from me is in serious financial trouble, dont know how his situation is going to pan out, but its not looking good. Do you really beleive that lessons will be learned? I don't, well not in the long term anyway. Look back to the last boom before bust and you'll see just as many people spending money they didn't have on credit cards and loans, then when it all went t1ts up they all blamed the banks. Sound anything like what's happening now?? Were any lessons learned?? Well possibly yes but not by the next generation who were still in school and not being tempted to buy their jelly babies on tick. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omidknight Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Where`s Bruce? Who do we owe our £155,000.00 to? I want to repay ours now so I Know the rest is ours to do what we want with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 omidknight - 2008-11-16 9:55 AM Where`s Bruce? Who do we owe our £155,000.00 to? I want to repay ours now so I Know the rest is ours to do what we want with. Just send it to me, I'll look after it. I promise to pass it on to the correct person if we can find him by the end of the month :D :D Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 omidknight - 2008-11-16 9:55 AM Where`s Bruce? Who do we owe our £155,000.00 to? I want to repay ours now so I Know the rest is ours to do what we want with. I would suggest that you don't pay it all yet because you may be overcharged: According to BGD ( as I understand him): Government debt is £2366 billion Personal debt is £1457 billion ( Mortgages+ credit cards) Total: = £3823 billion He then says ( and I quote ): " because you live in Britain the only way debts can be paid is via taxation " My question is : Are mortgages and personal credit card bills really going to be paid for via taxation ? :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 davenewell@home - 2008-11-15 11:06 PM knight of the road - 2008-11-15 7:56 PM Brian, One thing you can be sure of, is that lessons will be learned from this particular crisis, people will not be so ready to be jumping into debt to buy this that and the other, a young guy up the street from me is in serious financial trouble, dont know how his situation is going to pan out, but its not looking good. Do you really beleive that lessons will be learned? I don't, well not in the long term anyway. Look back to the last boom before bust and you'll see just as many people spending money they didn't have on credit cards and loans, then when it all went t1ts up they all blamed the banks. Sound anything like what's happening now?? Were any lessons learned?? Well possibly yes but not by the next generation who were still in school and not being tempted to buy their jelly babies on tick. D. Some of the lessons will be learned for some of the time, but not all of the lessons for all of the time.Those who are personally affected will probably become highly risk averse, the mature unaffected will remember until their next pay cheque arrives, and those too young to care still won't care when they reach maturity. That is why we keep having cycles.The really interesting recession will be the next one - you know, the one the world's leaders are now all working to ensure never happens.Since the great Wall St crash the management of economies has gradually improved, with the boom cycles being longer, but the resulting busts unfortunately being deeper. Each time, it has been a change in collective behaviour during the boom that has spawned the bust. The present debt accumulation began, it seems to me, with a certain Anthony Barber, onetime Chancellor of this realm, who began the process of persuading us to spend tomorrows pay packet today. That progressed until many people had spent next year's pay packet today and were, until recently, starting on the year after next's.Then, a little local difficulty with some criminally sold mortgages in America, exposed the stupidity of buying packaged debts at attractive prices from "good chaps", without properly opening the packaging. When the packaging was eventually opened, a strong smell of rotting fish emerged: the debts turned out to be bad debts, and the packages worthless. Because mainly banks had bought the packages, they found their capitalisations (which had included the purchase value of the debts) had suddenly reduced below statutory requirements, so they began to call in loans from elsewhere to re-build their balance sheets. That just exposed yet more over-extended borrowers, and so we spiral on down.Moral: never fail to look a gift-horse squarely in the teeth. But they won't remember - they never do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Job centres, job seekers allowence, working tax credits no matter how they try to sanitise things it is still the dole. Traditionally it was always the lower paid, unskilled and skilled workers that we saw signing on and a lot of, but not all job centre staff had this superior attitude to signee's, but what we are seeing now is something a lot different, former highly paid professionals earning big money are now forming a queue to sign on, it is these people who are going to get a huge culture shock when they see how the other half live, reduced from say 50, 60, 70 grand a year salaries down to £65 per week. Most effected will be the 30 to 40 year olds who are only a few years into their mortgage, they face the harsh reality of repossession, thank God my house is paid for and I didn't jump onto the easy credit bandwagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omidknight Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 knight of the road - 2008-11-16 3:00 PM Job centres, job seekers allowence, working tax credits no matter how they try to sanitise things it is still the dole. Traditionally it was always the lower paid, unskilled and skilled workers that we saw signing on and a lot of, but not all job centre staff had this superior attitude to signee's, but what we are seeing now is something a lot different, former highly paid professionals earning big money are now forming a queue to sign on, it is these people who are going to get a huge culture shock when they see how the other half live, reduced from say 50, 60, 70 grand a year salaries down to £65 per week. Most effected will be the 30 to 40 year olds who are only a few years into their mortgage, they face the harsh reality of repossession, thank God my house is paid for and I didn't jump onto the easy credit bandwagon. Me too! Never had a credit card - omidknight ex sort/of/a/plumber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Brian Kirby - 2008-11-16 1:03 PM Those who are personally affected will probably become highly risk averse, the mature unaffected will remember until their next pay cheque arrives, and those too young to care still won't care when they reach maturity. You'd think so wouldn't you, but I know couple of people that are in as big a mess as now as when we had the property crash last time around. Some years back there was a TV programme about a con artist who placed adverts in paper or mailed people with 'offers', his greatest asset was a list of people who had responded to previous 'offers' as they where the most likly to give him money again. omidknight - 2008-11-16 4:20 PM Me too! Never had a credit card - omidknight ex sort/of/a/plumber Nothing wrong with credit cards just the way they are used, unfortunatly with banks now tightening up on loans but credit card companies not I would predict a lot more people will be getting into trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted November 16, 2008 Author Share Posted November 16, 2008 peter - 2008-11-14 9:38 PM What his awaited terse reply or his attempt to put the frighteners on people. Must be a very sad person to go to all that effort for nothing. >:-) >:-) Hello once again Mr Keating. I'm genuinely intrigued. Honestly. You remain a member of this forum, despite your vitriolic contempt, time after time, for other posters. What a fantastic team player you prove yourself. Do you have so little esle to occupy your life? Is this some form of self-flagelation for you? Should we henceforth refer to you as "Peter the Masochist"? Your declared personal intrerests demonstrate just what an arresting and engagingly social animal you really have used the gift of life to become: "Boating, Model boats, Trout fishing, Metal detecting, Motorhome touring". Yet despite these self-admitted social limitations, you see fit to anoint yourself as the arbiter of what should or should not be discussed in the forum. Pray share with us other minions, Oh Great One, your reasons for such bellicose opinion..... Is it the piles playing up once again? Does the inadequate size of your penis really cause you such difficulties in forming meaningful and positive associations with others? Is this size-ist issue the reason for your peculiar declared attachment to trout fishing? Is the size of the fly that you can manufacture in some way an artificial prop to pretend that your rational manhood is adequate? Is that why, perchance, you were forced to to bear the name "Peter"?......a burden to carry with you throughout this life? Now Peter, don't by shy. You are amongst friends here. Yes, really. Opening up and expressing your personal frustrations and inadequacies is a very difficult thing to do, but we are all here for you. They show us who you are. They illustrate your limitations, but that can be helpful to those professionals who are here to assist you. We know that it is a struggle for you to comprehend that someone who has moved away from the UK to Spain might, as well as engaging in discourse about Politics and current affairs in Spain, might also still retain some passing interest in perteinent events in the UK; through this organ amongst others. But be still, thy wildly beating heart. 'Tis but a passing fad. A zephyr. Soon enough thou wilt be left to thine own reflections, unafflicted by those others whose views may not accord with thine own. The light that they had shone into those dark eyes will soon be extinguished, and you can relax back into the murk of ignorance, a dullard, undisturbed by the discord of information and truth. Now, Peter, we're not expecting you to hold back in your response. Come, let the red mist descend..... Let it all out, all that pent-up frustration, all that inadequacy, all those feelings of self-loathing and poor self worth....... Come, let your public witness the venom, the bile, the very essence of the Keating thing. And let them, just for once, be convinced of your intellectual prowess; of the compelling power of your advocacy, and of your rational abilities....... Come on Peter. You know you can do it. My shoulders are broad, and in the end, whatever you vomit forth can only be a cathartic process for you. If this forum proves to be in any way a positive part of your re-integration to the human species, then all of us here will I'm sure be proud that we have in some small way made a contribution to your rehabilitation. Ultimately, we're all rooting for you Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I haven't been a member of this group all that long, but what I have noticed is that quite a lot of bitching goes on. I have put up a couple of posts that have been attacked by a couple of people that I wouldn't give the time of day, but me being me I hit them back with a frying pan. Are there any Volkswagon people out there? my reason for asking is that we Volkswagon people are the nicest people one could meet *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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