antony1969 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Do believe it was Barry that mentioned tolerance the other day ... Seems its defo not a two way thing though when it comes to Muslim tolerance of LBGT issues ... After 4 majority Muslim Muslim schools in Birmingham pulled out of relationship lessons that included gay couples seems another 7 majority Muslim schools in Manchester could be doing the same thing ... Strange thing tolerance aint it ??? ... Cant understand why Stonewall and the screeching permanently offended aren't all over this one , really cant ... Imagine a C of E school or schools doing the same ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Tolerance deniers are acceptable if they follow a certain religion *-) .......... Halo polishers are not adverse to hypocrisy ;-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-20 6:50 AM Do believe it was Barry that mentioned tolerance the other day ... Seems its defo not a two way thing though when it comes to Muslim tolerance of LBGT issues ... After 4 majority Muslim Muslim schools in Birmingham pulled out of relationship lessons that included gay couples seems another 7 majority Muslim schools in Manchester could be doing the same thing ... Strange thing tolerance aint it ??? ... Cant understand why Stonewall and the screeching permanently offended aren't all over this one , really cant ... Imagine a C of E school or schools doing the same ! As I said, it is a two way thing. If what you say is correct then its wrong. Values need to change. My sister who spent a lot of time in Jordan summed it up quite well, Their values and attitudes are decades behind ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 You’ve touched upon the paradox of tolerance. To wholly tolerate the intolerant would defeat the freedoms the tolerant seek to maintain. In this country we already limit intolerant behaviours by proscribing them by law in order to maintain the rights and freedoms of others. Apart from serious lapses in enforcement which requires the state to take action I still haven’t heard from either of you what else you both want to be done. Remember there is a principle of proportionality which governs all state intervention in the UK in relation to a person’s right to freedom of thought conscience and religion. For example, the state could not require all Muslims to abandon their religion or discriminate against them in relation to immigration solely because of their religion. It is therefore mistaken to apply to those who adhere to the principle of proportionality a willingness to tolerate the intolerant unless they do not subscribe to the principle that the state has a right to limit intolerant behaviours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 11:40 AM You’ve touched upon the paradox of tolerance. To wholly tolerate the intolerant would defeat the freedoms the tolerant seek to maintain. In this country we already limit intolerant behaviours by proscribing them by law in order to maintain the rights and freedoms of others. Apart from serious lapses in enforcement which requires the state to take action I still haven’t heard from either of you what else you both want to be done. Remember there is a principle of proportionality which governs all state intervention in the UK in relation to a person’s right to freedom of thought conscience and religion. For example, the state could not require all Muslims to abandon their religion or discriminate against them in relation to immigration solely because of their religion. It is therefore mistaken to apply to those who adhere to the principle of proportionality a willingness to tolerate the intolerant unless they do not subscribe to the principle that the state has a right to limit intolerant behaviours. So why is their intolerance being allowed to dictate what is taught in "state" run schools? :-| .......... Surely that is enabling their intolerance? *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 You've provided a good example of the tension that sometimes arises between state intervention aimed at promoting tolerance which some say crosses the line by telling people what they must think as opposed to how they should act. I don’t believe it is possible from merely reading from press reports who was right on that issue in relation to the Parkside school. I haven’t seen the materials or witnessed any of the lessons the parents and other groups were dissatisfied with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 I'm sure Veronica's response would be just the same if majority white schools parents pulled their kids out of school and protested about the teaching of Islam and visiting Mosques as part of RE ... She'd be just the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 They’ll be making Envy illegal next. Then what...jealousy and say scorn,can’t have scorn. Hate crimes ...what will they think of next. Instead of making various things illigal there should be education,but of an age group where they actually understand what your talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:17 PM I'm sure Veronica's response would be just the same if majority white schools parents pulled their kids out of school and protested about the teaching of Islam and visiting Mosques as part of RE ... She'd be just the same Spot on Antony- but depending on the content the lessons and the visits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Someone on this thread used to have an Avatar with "Keep Calm and Kill Batty Man" on another forum. Just sayin (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-03-20 12:43 PM Someone on this thread used to have an Avatar with "Keep Calm and Kill Batty Man" on another forum. Just sayin (lol) Yes Barry and who made up that avatar ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 12:42 PM antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:17 PM I'm sure Veronica's response would be just the same if majority white schools parents pulled their kids out of school and protested about the teaching of Islam and visiting Mosques as part of RE ... She'd be just the same Spot on Antony- but depending on the content the lessons and the visits. You'd have no issue with parents in the same numbers saying no , they did not want their child being taught about Islam in school ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:48 PM Barryd999 - 2019-03-20 12:43 PM Someone on this thread used to have an Avatar with "Keep Calm and Kill Batty Man" on another forum. Just sayin (lol) Yes Barry and who made up that avatar ??? Not me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:50 PM Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 12:42 PM antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:17 PM I'm sure Veronica's response would be just the same if majority white schools parents pulled their kids out of school and protested about the teaching of Islam and visiting Mosques as part of RE ... She'd be just the same Spot on Antony- but depending on the content the lessons and the visits. You'd have no issue with parents in the same numbers saying no , they did not want their child being taught about Islam in school ??? I have no issue about children being taught about any major world religions in state schools that are not faith schools unless the content of the lessons is such that the children are led to believe that the religion of their parents is superior or inferior to any other. There are some people who think religion should never be on the curriculum in a state school and that there should be no state sponsored faith schools. I can see arguments for and against and can’t make my mind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-03-20 1:25 PM antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:48 PM Barryd999 - 2019-03-20 12:43 PM Someone on this thread used to have an Avatar with "Keep Calm and Kill Batty Man" on another forum. Just sayin (lol) Yes Barry and who made up that avatar ??? Not me!! Fibber *-) ........... You gave me a pink minge 8-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Barryd999 - 2019-03-20 1:25 PM antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:48 PM Barryd999 - 2019-03-20 12:43 PM Someone on this thread used to have an Avatar with "Keep Calm and Kill Batty Man" on another forum. Just sayin (lol) Yes Barry and who made up that avatar ??? Not me!! Yes you did ... Go back and have a look ... Off memory you said sumat like I need an avatar and that's what ya came up with ... If I had done it I would say because it was done in jest but I cant take credit for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 1:26 PM antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:50 PM Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 12:42 PM antony1969 - 2019-03-20 12:17 PM I'm sure Veronica's response would be just the same if majority white schools parents pulled their kids out of school and protested about the teaching of Islam and visiting Mosques as part of RE ... She'd be just the same Spot on Antony- but depending on the content the lessons and the visits. You'd have no issue with parents in the same numbers saying no , they did not want their child being taught about Islam in school ??? I have no issue about children being taught about any major world religions in state schools that are not faith schools unless the content of the lessons is such that the children are led to believe that the religion of their parents is superior or inferior to any other. There are some people who think religion should never be on the curriculum in a state school and that there should be no state sponsored faith schools. I can see arguments for and against and can’t make my mind up. That isn't what we are about though Veronica is it ... I too have no issue about all religions being taught but if a white majority or non Muslim majority schools parents pulled students out of school because they did not like one religion being taught and that religion was Islam then we would have uproar because we are not meant to discriminate are we ... You know discriminate like those Muslim parents are doing in Birmingham and Manchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Religon causes more problems in this world than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 The issues surrounding the actions to which you refer is whether or not the children are being taught to believe things about human sexuality that their parents disagree with on moral grounds and not merely that they should not discriminate or treat others who disagree with that view badly. I don’t know whether there is any substance in what the parents are saying so I can’t say whether their actions are right or wrong. It was you who went on to mention teaching “about other religions” and I gave my view. In simple terms, if children with parents who disagree with the moral stance taken by some Muslims and people of other faiths about human sexuality were to be taken to a Mosque where they were to be told that LGBT people were immoral then I certainly would say those parents would be fully justified in kicking up a fuss about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 2:05 PM The issues surrounding the actions to which you refer is whether or not the children are being taught to believe things about human sexuality that their parents disagree with on moral grounds and not merely that they should not discriminate or treat others who disagree with that view badly. I don’t know whether there is any substance in what the parents are saying so I can’t say whether their actions are right or wrong. It was you who went on to mention teaching “about other religions” and I gave my view. In simple terms, if children with parents who disagree with the moral stance taken by some Muslims and people of other faiths about human sexuality were to be taken to a Mosque where they were to be told that LGBT people were immoral then I certainly would say those parents would be fully justified in kicking up a fuss about it. So it's one rule for them in a STATE funded school......and a different rule for us? *-) ........ How very soppy liberal tolerant ;-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 2:05 PM The issues surrounding the actions to which you refer is whether or not the children are being taught to believe things about human sexuality that their parents disagree with on moral grounds and not merely that they should not discriminate or treat others who disagree with that view badly. I don’t know whether there is any substance in what the parents are saying so I can’t say whether their actions are right or wrong. It was you who went on to mention teaching “about other religions” and I gave my view. In simple terms, if children with parents who disagree with the moral stance taken by some Muslims and people of other faiths about human sexuality were to be taken to a Mosque where they were to be told that LGBT people were immoral then I certainly would say those parents would be fully justified in kicking up a fuss about it. I get ya but wether those Muslim parents are not agreeing with teaching children about different relationship scenarios on a religious or moral stance is irrelevant ... Now I happen to know of a 6 year old girl who was taken as part of a C of E school trip to a Mosque very recently ... I know the parents and I know from what they said that they and other parents were unhappy about the trip as it meant 6 year old girls would be sexualised by having to wear the hijab ... Unfortunately because of the bonkers PC world we have they and other parents dare not say anything to the school about their hijab issue for fear of being labelled Islamaphobic and having mark's against them by our very liberal teachers ... So we have a world where it's ok for some to openly demonstrate outside school and refuse to take their kids into school over gay relationships being taught in school and others daren't say a ruddy thing for fear of the usual insults etc ... Funny old world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I think those concerned parents should have had the right to withdraw their children from the visit if the wearing of a hijab by 6-year-old girls was to be insisted upon Antony. Their wishes should have been canvassed and respected before the visit. Did anyone ask the Mosque whether it would be a requirement or was it daft teachers making stereotypical assumptions about what would be required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 2:42 PM I think those concerned parents should have had the right to withdraw their children from the visit if the wearing of a hijab by 6-year-old girls was to be insisted upon Antony. Their wishes should have been canvassed and respected before the visit. Did anyone ask the Mosque whether it would be a requirement or was it daft teachers making stereotypical assumptions about what would be required? You don't know much about mosque's.............Or their religion do you Veronica? ;-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted March 20, 2019 Author Share Posted March 20, 2019 Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 2:42 PM I think those concerned parents should have had the right to withdraw their children from the visit if the wearing of a hijab by 6-year-old girls was to be insisted upon Antony. Their wishes should have been canvassed and respected before the visit. Did anyone ask the Mosque whether it would be a requirement or was it daft teachers making stereotypical assumptions about what would be required? A requirement by the mosque ... As was washing feet which wasnt an issue to be fair ... I agree they should and probably did have the right to remove their child from the trip buy the point is they dare not say nything for fear of the usual stuff that goes with being critical of Islam even in the smallest way ... A sad reflection on our PC world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 antony1969 - 2019-03-20 3:03 PM Violet1956 - 2019-03-20 2:42 PM I think those concerned parents should have had the right to withdraw their children from the visit if the wearing of a hijab by 6-year-old girls was to be insisted upon Antony. Their wishes should have been canvassed and respected before the visit. Did anyone ask the Mosque whether it would be a requirement or was it daft teachers making stereotypical assumptions about what would be required? A requirement by the mosque ... As was washing feet which wasnt an issue to be fair ... I agree they should and probably did have the right to remove their child from the trip buy the point is they dare not say nything for fear of the usual stuff that goes with being critical of Islam even in the smallest way ... A sad reflection on our PC world You can bet the school would have taken note of the child's parents stand ;-) .........and seeing as all our schools now preach the PC Gospel according to the current fashionable liberal tosh :-| ....... I can understand the parents quandary *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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